Powerplay Our best quit over 5th column

It is now the third cycle in a row that some players, pledged to Archon, push a specific system on top of the other ones. System with of course one of the worst profit we can find, very loss making if you take into account the overhead.

They started by putting over 8000 preps in the system...which has never been seen within Archon...we were used to put about 4000-5000 maximum.
Then, over 12000.
And currently, after only two days after the cycle started, around 6000 preps were already put...I have not checked the game yet but believe it is consistently growing.

What we are facing here is not an isolated player, but a well organized group of (not that many) players who focus on one specific target per cycle, in the sole purpose to weaken us progressively, and bring the Pegasi War to a win since they have never been able to do so using the regular (AKA fair) ways.

I actually don't despise them...I mean, that kind of strategy, infiltrating and bringing mess from the inside, is seen in movies and happens in real life. What saddens me is that nobody in Archon does anything but whining on the forum about that, while there are actually some solutions.

The problem is that it is a losing battle. Eventually we will reach a point where we can't fortify enough to keep up with undermining, while still being able to oppose bad preps. As it is I spend far more time fortifying than I would prefer, and I'm not even one of the heavy lifters. I spend more than my PP salary in fast tracking, and spend remaining time earning that back.

If I wanted a job type game, I'd go back to raiding in World of Warcraft :)
 
It certainly does become a losing battle. At the start of the cycle I put over 1000 preps into a good system. Others put in more, and it looked like all was well. Then the 5Cs came into action and focussed on a really bad system. They put over 60,000,000 credits worth of prep points into the bad system. So we pushed the good system some more to bring it over 7k prep points. The next day, the bad system is at over 10,000 prep points.

Now, we could ignore this 5C bullpoop in the short term, but that will just continually increase the size of the problem for us legit Archon players. We ignore it, and we get bad system after bad system, pushing our upkeep higher and higher, requiring more and more fortification.

I don't think that Power Play is meant to be played this way, with no way to counter the efforts of 5th Columnists other than to become 5th Columnists ourselves, just so we can resist the expansions of 5th Column prepped systems.

A simple solution would be to not rank the preparation systems by their prep point total. Just adding the 10 most prepped systems to a list. And then give each faction member 1 vote per rating level to be spent on either up voting or down voting preparation candidate systems. With this sort of additional voting system the actual player numbers would be the deciding factor. If there are 10 5th Columnists all at rating 5, then they have 5 points to spend on up voting their 5C prepped system for a total of 50 points. It would then take just 10 legit Archon members to counter-act those 5C efforts and down vote the bad system.

Right now it comes down to whoever has the most credits to spare and the most time to spend on preparation. And since 5th Columnists do not have to bother putting any effort into fortification it frees up their credits and time for prepping and fighting for expansion of bad systems. There needs to be a way to resist this rot from within.


Just my 2 credits on the matter.

Otto Von Grim
 
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It is now the third cycle in a row that some players, pledged to Archon, push a specific system on top of the other ones. System with of course one of the worst profit we can find, very loss making if you take into account the overhead.

They started by putting over 8000 preps in the system...which has never been seen within Archon...we were used to put about 4000-5000 maximum.
Then, over 12000.
And currently, after only two days after the cycle started, around 6000 preps were already put...I have not checked the game yet but believe it is consistently growing.

What we are facing here is not an isolated player, but a well organized group of (not that many) players who focus on one specific target per cycle, in the sole purpose to weaken us progressively, and bring the Pegasi War to a win since they have never been able to do so using the regular (AKA fair) ways.

I actually don't despise them...I mean, that kind of strategy, infiltrating and bringing mess from the inside, is seen in movies and happens in real life. What saddens me is that nobody in Archon does anything but whining on the forum about that, while there are actually some solutions.

I despise them, since there is little to nothing we can do to counter them while staying pledged to our own power. So one person can essentially force another to have to play with another power just to help the power they actually want to pledge to.

I think the system is broken or poorly designed and needs to be one of the first things they look at if and when they ever go about updating PP.

I despise them because they drive people away from both PP and the game in general.
 
Sorry guys...love 'em, hate 'em, quit over 'em. This has been part of the design and desire of the devs since the beginning. <shrug> Do whatever you want over it...your time, your choice...this, IMHO is no different than someone coming into someone's system and ganking it. Granted, it took months for FDev to cap the damage that could be done this..way...and they finally did....maybe someday they will put in place some kind of cap on how much can be undermined the last few hours of the last day.

Until then...keep on fighting!
 
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It is one of the reasons I gave PP a break in the end.

I think Frontier have said that it working as intended (I can't be sure of that, so feel free to correct me), but I think the whole mechanism is soul destroying. If two or three dedicated people can do this against one small power then you have to question why you put the effort in.

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Sorry guys...love 'em, hate 'em, quit over 'em. This has been part of the design and desire of the devs since the beginning. <shrug> Do whatever you want over it...your time, your choice...this, IMHO is no different than someone coming into someone's system and ganking it. Granted, it took months for FDev to cap the damage that could be done this..way...and they finally did....maybe someday they will put in place some kind of cap on how much can be undermined the last few hours of the last day.

Until then...keep on fighting!

That's fair enough, but PP starts to become like a second job if you really dedicate yourself to it. There isn't much return on that investment in time if you get screwed over by a small group of people with more time on their hands than yourself.
 
It is one of the reasons I gave PP a break in the end.

I think Frontier have said that it working as intended (I can't be sure of that, so feel free to correct me), but I think the whole mechanism is soul destroying. If two or three dedicated people can do this against one small power then you have to question why you put the effort in.

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That's fair enough, but PP starts to become like a second job if you really dedicate yourself to it. There isn't much return on that investment in time if you get screwed over by a small group of people with more time on their hands than yourself.

As in any other time venture...choose what makes you happy. I am not trying to be condescending...or belittling. Your leisure time is your leisure time. If you are not having fun during it...then, why bother?

I play in PP because I have a different goal than most folks...it is fairly easy for our group to attain and keeps someone else's goal in check. Win/win for us. Grinding out fortification, etc. can be fun...for a little while...and we have worked with our faction to do this occasionally...unfortunately, when things are working in the BGS properly...we have more important things to grind out locally. So, we do.
 
No worries, I didn't think you were condescending. But after 16 or 17 cycles it get's to you and you need a break. I think I got a little bit burnt out by it - have played the game just twice in the last 4 weeks (although I am gradually getting back to it).
 
For me really, power play has become more a group thing - I enjoy playing the game with other folks pledged to my power. Otherwise I'm not sure I would bother outside of maintaining rank 4 for 5 mil a week (and not spend it on fast tracking).
 
Like the sig :)

I'm particularly proud of that record, given where the crew were in cycle 9 when the Code and a lot of other players had left.

Don't ever bother with rank 5, I got it once and it did me in.
 
No worries, I didn't think you were condescending. But after 16 or 17 cycles it get's to you and you need a break. I think I got a little bit burnt out by it - have played the game just twice in the last 4 weeks (although I am gradually getting back to it).

If you want to try your hand at something that is even more sysyphitically frustrating, join us in Lugh and help us play the BGS! ;p We feel the pain and the burn....often.
 
I'm in two minds over the 5th column. One the one hand it is clearly annoying when you put together a great plan, communicate it and get people on side, only to have it ruined by factors outside of your control.

On the other hand it is not unrealistic. All powers would have intelligence agencies and operatives that do spying and black ops work. This could be said to be adding to the social game play.

Surely it is unrealistic. In that, say, Aisling Duval would not permit pilots undermining her expansion efforts to work for her. Such pilots would quickly be stepped on, perhaps the offending pilot would meet an untimely end.

The PP mechanic has no overall guiding force, no Q&A going on while each power tries to extend its influence.

The main issue is that in the real world there would be oversight and a central agency pushing the agenda, ensuring things happen "correctly". And it would be the ability of that controlling influence to organise things, that decided how well things went.

While in ED land all pilots are individuals and can do whatever they please, essentially it's just some amorphous entity without even necessarily a single goal.
 
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Dealing with mmo mechanic is quite hard. Economy, politic,... (EVE hired some economists for ex) and as long many players are involved, they'll find an issue and exploit.
-> Ex : Sothis Eldorado. Frontier closed the door as soon it became a kind of community goal. Easy, min-max datas in code, done.

Powerplay ?
Mechanics (long story short, you all know)
1-you truck some stuff (hmm...) and annoy your opponents to make them trucking more (hmm...)
2-If you want to work hard, you pay (hmm ?... Got it. Easy nerf, easy crowd control)
3-Et voilà !

But, 5th column.
It does exist irl, sure ! With no threat ? Hm...
Every aspect of Elite may get you in troubles. Mining, Trading,... even PP trucking !
5th columnits, threatened ? No ! Frontier didn't expect the 5c. These designers are too kind. Fail.
If you made a mistake (s**t happen), you correct, you... do something ! So ? "Horizons is coming, no time for old stuff. Enjoy, it's cool !!".

Frontier has no idea to solve this problem. It's TOO BIG. MMO issue because Frontier can't handle with MMO stuff. It's not simple huh ?

This thread does exist because an active player, fully involved in PP, gave up. He explained why.
Ok, it happens. Everydayssome quit Elite, ofc. But do you really think this player is one of his kind ? What's the moto for all cmdrs of his faction, for all players involved in PP (He was a leader) : "PP is broken, enough is enough, ciao"


Frontier, maybe there s something leaking players..."Works as intended", joke ! Boat is sinking.

Please communicate, at least. You can do that ?


PS: I m still in because I expect you to fix something. So, waiting for news.
PS2: by the way, I didn't ask "What s the point of PP ?". People fighting for planets, and there are 400 billions empty systems ! No stuff or something to earn, just more systems to get in this tiny inhabited space. Other subject...
 
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On the other hand it is not unrealistic. All powers would have intelligence agencies and operatives that do spying and black ops work. This could be said to be adding to the social game play.

The real world also has effective counter-intelligence. Power Play has no means to combat fifth column preparation than devoted even more resources to preparation. As Jemym describes, he and his allies, all active Torval supporters who support her with fortification, expansion, and preparation, poured millions of credits into the systems, but this was eroded by deliberate preparation of systems which are obviously bad for Torval and her allies.

The worst part of this isn't that preparation civil wars and fifth column prepping is allowed, it is, in the end, a perverted form of democracy. The worst part is that CMDRs can maintain Rating 5 simply by pushing 5433 tonnes into a bad preparation system. Every single week. Thereby sustaining their rating within the Power's infrastructure by continually sabotaging them. And there is absolutely no counter to this tactic.

I wonder...

Did it occur to anyone that this may be due simply to the players pledged to whomever that do NOT use the forums or Reddit and have no care or concern about YOUR game plans in THEIR game?

Or did you just automatically assume that anyone and everyone doing Power Play answers to the groups trying to run it and that this MUST be something malicious and foul? Because that certainly seems to be the attitude I'm getting from the post and from others who do PP that complain about 5th column.

I don't know if everyone takes that into account, but speaking for myself, of course I take this into account. Also from my interaction with the ALD organisers and the IHC, yes, I believe most organisers do take that mindset into account. Every week, large Powers see "preparation civil wars", where organised CMDRs who understand how misleading the Galaxy Map is, fight with tonnage and nominations to remove economically poor system choices off the list. These "prep civil wars" have happened for the larger Powers since week 1. What we've been seeing over the past month in ALD and Torval, and the past two months across the galaxy is decidedly different than those.

Specifically, in the case of Annwn, it is an obvious deficit causer for Torval, and has zero benefit to anyone as a control system, but it actively contests 10 systems in one of ALD's most profitable spheres. Add to that that its rise on the Prep list happened within 24 hours further instills the reasoning that it was active undermining of Imperial Powers by working from within.

Seems no one takes into consideration that only a small percentage of the players give a rat's furry rear end about your plans and goals for your faction and are instead just interested in how much salary they can make each week, so they do whatever they can that's quick and easy to further that.

Again, it is taken into consideration, but organisers do no like to talk about it as a strategic option, as it amounts to nothing more than a massive waste and drainage of resources to promote the Power. Effectively, these 'galactic powers' are paying dozens, if not hundreds of mercenary CMDRs to over-complete requested missions, and rewards them as fully as those who are actually dedicated. It is pretty disgustingly bad design, to be honest. And that's just referring to Guathiti levels of over-fortification.

Worse is the current Preparation system. CMDRs are given at least 10 tonnes, if not 50 tonnes, of cargo that is a guaranteed 1,000 credit return. If there are no other trade goods, they can lose money in the short term and buy more of that preparation material, but, if they maintain the rating 5, which is fairly easy when 'prepping', they be rewarded at the end of the week with a massive salary and the ability to continue to use preparation materials as if they are a free trade good.

Combining this reality with the rise of the 'preparation fifth column,' the only quick fix I can see for this system is to remove the merit and monetary rewards from Preparation Materials entirely. Return it to a vote. Those who expend credits to recruit a system should realise the only reward is that they might get that system for their Power.

While I was still active in PP, something I ceased to do in Sept, I did pay attention to where the folks running the ALD PP wanted things done, I even followed those orders sometimes, if it suited my own designs, but not always because I didn't always agree with their plans. And I'm far from a singular event, there will be far more players doing PP who pay NO attention to your carefully laid plans and have no idea about your spreadsheets, than DO give a damn and follow them as if they mattered.

And we thank you for your support. By the way, we haven't issued "orders" since July. The idea at ALD is to inform and encourage what we think is the best strategy. When pilots disagree, there are always other options for supporting the Power available in the Dispatch.
 
Perhaps the amount of "prep votes" CMDRs can use can be scaled to their overall Merits. A CMDR with 25,000+ merits should have more influence than a dirty 5th Columner with deep pockets for fast-tracking preparation of a loss making system at the last minute. This should help reward the dedicated CMDRs who devote their time and energy to Power Play. More and more strategists are walking away from what could be a great game mechanic.
 

Goose4291

Banned
It is now the third cycle in a row that some players, pledged to Archon, push a specific system on top of the other ones. System with of course one of the worst profit we can find, very loss making if you take into account the overhead.

They started by putting over 8000 preps in the system...which has never been seen within Archon...we were used to put about 4000-5000 maximum.
Then, over 12000.
And currently, after only two days after the cycle started, around 6000 preps were already put...I have not checked the game yet but believe it is consistently growing.

What we are facing here is not an isolated player, but a well organized group of (not that many) players who focus on one specific target per cycle, in the sole purpose to weaken us progressively, and bring the Pegasi War to a win since they have never been able to do so using the regular (AKA fair) ways.

I actually don't despise them...I mean, that kind of strategy, infiltrating and bringing mess from the inside, is seen in movies and happens in real life. What saddens me is that nobody in Archon does anything but whining on the forum about that, while there are actually some solutions.

Don't forget early on you had one or two of the big gaming groups trying to collapse Archon from within because they thought if he was removed, their fictional faction character would have been brought in as a replacement.
 
Perhaps the amount of "prep votes" CMDRs can use can be scaled to their overall Merits. A CMDR with 25,000+ merits should have more influence than a dirty 5th Columner with deep pockets for fast-tracking preparation of a loss making system at the last minute. This should help reward the dedicated CMDRs who devote their time and energy to Power Play. More and more strategists are walking away from what could be a great game mechanic.

Problem here is preppers have alot of merits too.
 
The biggest problem in Power Play is effective communication with the fellow players of your power, with so few actually involved on reddit, forums or facebook we're all always battling the grinders. 5th columning just makes something already hard next to impossible.
 
Fail reply:
@ Ha11ywood
There are fortifiers who have fortified loss making systems above and beyond what it necessary. Same with prep.
I don't think that's a viable solution as they still get merits, regardless of their intentions, it won't solve the problem.
 
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