Outnumbered PvP - Testing my new build!

[Truesilver]

In 2.1 Pipko and I had a duel and it was basically RPS. I had emissive and he had no shields, I win. Then we agreed on not using feedback rails and emissive seekers (so only multicannons). I would win as long as I had chaff and he would win because I have fixed wepaons.

Then again, I could use dumbfires and criple his (and your) weapons so unless you go for stury mounts you are screwed by missiles IF you don't use PDTs and you really need more than one which means you lack in heatsinks, atleast on everything but the FDL which is why the FDL is the uber king in PvP at the moment even more than it was pre 2.1 so what did you just say? Build diversity? Yeah, on a FDL. It is just no longer FDL shield tank only but FDL shield tank or FDL hull tank. Everything else is not viable (eventually a hull tank Clipper but that's about it).

FDL FDL FDL FDL FDL. That's the only thing you see in supercruise. Everyone flying an FDL basically tells everyone "I am a PvPer!". Everyone who does not tells everyone "I am not a PvPer or just too stupid to adapt to the meta!".

Large ships get countered by a C1F Feedback Cascade Railgun. Silent ships get countered by stupid 1000% heat generation increase and a C1F Emissive Pulse Laser and Missiles.

And please do not let me start with weapons. Multicannons FTW. If you don't go multicannons you simply WANT to suicide. Multicannons my friend, multicannons.

No, FD have done everything but working towards build diversity. Pre 2.1 Plasmas were useful, railguns were (a little too much) useful, hull tanking was useful, lasers were useful, missiles were NOT useful, large ships were useful, medium ships were useful, FAS, Clipper, FDL, Python were all viable, small ships were useful like Couriers or DBs and even Vipers.

But now it is Multicannons with a Feedback Railgun and eventually some missiles or another corrosive MULTICANNON.



No, no, no. We are way behind the level of build diversity pre 2.1 and you really can't tell me they are focusing on achieving that because they have done everything what is possible with their power to make a single build so damn overpowered that really nothing else can beat it anymore. The only ship you see in PvP is the FDL and in wings eventually a Cutter.

It is another pathetic fact that the community partially refuses to use thermal shock/cascade because it is EVEN MORE OVERPOWERED than the already overpowered FDL-Multicannon build. And I highly assume that would be the same if feedbackrails would instantly break a ship's shields when hitting a banking one. I don't even ask what they have been thinking when trying that out or writing that, I question wheather or not they have been thinking AT ALL. Even someone who never played ED at all would instantly realise that this is WAY TOO DAMN OVERPOWERED. Like basically everything the engineers have to offer.

No, FD have not build towards build diversity ... the contrary happened. Go home z4.MAFIA, you are obviously drunk.


EDIT: Also, ED has been updated to a draw simulator. Noone kills anyone. Everyone escapes as of hitpoint ifplation. It took you several minutes to get Nerad down where he could jumped multiple times while doing a 720 backflip, rebooting and drinking a cup of tea but he only went to 0% because he wanted to ... because he did not want to wake and this is the point. There is no reason to PvP if noone dies anymore. It lacks in oneshotting and burst and bsaically the point where a fight is lost without being destroyed is FAR too early as of RPS game. Silent hull tank ship at 90% hull and 0% weapons. No chance of winning, low/high wake out -> draw.

I haven't destroyed a single CMDR PvPer unless he wanted to.

Anyone with the slightest interest in PvP should read Crimson's post at least three times over. In fact, commit it to memory.

++ THIS IS THE CURRENT STATE OF PVP AFTER THE 2.1 BOMB DROPPED ++

Mr Kaim I cannot rep you enough.

Props to Z4 though for sticking with his preferred build like he said he would and finding ways to make it work for him, you're a legend, o7

 

[Ozram]

The counter post relies on Dumbfires which I've not seen used with any success anywhere, certainly not the 100% point blank accuracy needed to "cripple" an opponent's weapons. Fitting Dumbfires also uses a hardpoint that could be used for an actually accurate weapon, essentially doubling the advantage of the hull tanked silent build.



The rest of the game is soon going to include Aliens. If you don't Engineer, the rest of the game will be nothing but rebuy screens.

If crowd reaction to brief NPC buff is anything to go by, they won't be all that (or not for very long, anyway).

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Dont remember that duel where i "lost", more likely "draw" But point is, now you can basicly predict if you gonna lose/win in 1v1 just looking at the build setup, which is pretty sad. Skill become much less of a part in PvP, that's for sure. Not only that but in order to be competetive in combat now you HAVE to invest such a big amounf of time to engineer a ship,... and for what? PvP is not even rewarded in any way, which is even more sad.

Fine it is a draw which supports my criticism of draw maker Elite. But yes, I can cripple your modules and weapons while you are still at 90% hull. Then you high wake out as I lack in damage or malfunctioning your FSD since dirty drives allow for so much perma boost evasive flying that not even the best pilot can hit with multicannons the FSD continously as the possible area of dodge manouvers is WAY larger than before.

And yes again ... "PvP should be rare but rewarding." Hmmm ... what is it right now? "PvP is common and punishing." ... My utterly advanced skills of detecting issues tell me that there might be something different here but I am not really sure. It is really hard to tell the differences you know? The devs should probably investigate that a little more by waiting and doing nothing as they might change something they don't know what the result will be.

But hey, a balanced combat meta? That's not permitted in our game!

 

[deleteduser]

What does 'balance' mean here? That every load-out on every ship has an equal chance of winning against any other load-out on any other ship, or against every other load-out on that particular ship? That's not balance, that's pretend.

A certain load-out on a certain ship is going to dominate every other in 1v1 combat (caveat for the pilotz sklillz), no matter what FDev does to rebalance, and CMDRs will move towards that new META. This isn't always going to be something that can be 'fixed' by FDev either. Someone will get really good on a particular build even though it's not technically the best, attracting other CMDRs to that build.

Rebalance will bring a new META, will bring a rebalance, will bring a new META. The game will always have a META, will always be 'unbalanced'.

 

[Loskene]

No, FD have not build towards build diversity ... the contrary happened. Go home z4.MAFIA, you are obviously drunk.

I actually thought he was being sarcastic when he first said they're "increasing build diversity" but then he said it again.
Does he know who he's talking about?

 

[defekt]

In 2.1 Pipko and I had a duel and it was basically RPS. I had emissive and he had no shields, I win. Then we agreed on not using feedback rails and emissive seekers (so only multicannons). I would win as long as I had chaff and he would win because I have fixed wepaons.

Then again, I could use dumbfires and criple his (and your) weapons so unless you go for stury mounts you are screwed by missiles IF you don't use PDTs and you really need more than one which means you lack in heatsinks, atleast on everything but the FDL which is why the FDL is the uber king in PvP at the moment even more than it was pre 2.1 so what did you just say? Build diversity? Yeah, on a FDL. It is just no longer FDL shield tank only but FDL shield tank or FDL hull tank. Everything else is not viable (eventually a hull tank Clipper but that's about it).

FDL FDL FDL FDL FDL. That's the only thing you see in supercruise. Everyone flying an FDL basically tells everyone "I am a PvPer!". Everyone who does not tells everyone "I am not a PvPer or just too stupid to adapt to the meta!".

Large ships get countered by a C1F Feedback Cascade Railgun. Silent ships get countered by stupid 1000% heat generation increase and a C1F Emissive Pulse Laser and Missiles.

And please do not let me start with weapons. Multicannons FTW. If you don't go multicannons you simply WANT to suicide. Multicannons my friend, multicannons.

No, FD have done everything but working towards build diversity. Pre 2.1 Plasmas were useful, railguns were (a little too much) useful, hull tanking was useful, lasers were useful, missiles were NOT useful, large ships were useful, medium ships were useful, FAS, Clipper, FDL, Python were all viable, small ships were useful like Couriers or DBs and even Vipers.

But now it is Multicannons with a Feedback Railgun and eventually some missiles or another corrosive MULTICANNON.



No, no, no. We are way behind the level of build diversity pre 2.1 and you really can't tell me they are focusing on achieving that because they have done everything what is possible with their power to make a single build so damn overpowered that really nothing else can beat it anymore. The only ship you see in PvP is the FDL and in wings eventually a Cutter.

It is another pathetic fact that the community partially refuses to use thermal shock/cascade because it is EVEN MORE OVERPOWERED than the already overpowered FDL-Multicannon build. And I highly assume that would be the same if feedbackrails would instantly break a ship's shields when hitting a banking one. I don't even ask what they have been thinking when trying that out or writing that, I question wheather or not they have been thinking AT ALL. Even someone who never played ED at all would instantly realise that this is WAY TOO DAMN OVERPOWERED. Like basically everything the engineers have to offer.

No, FD have not build towards build diversity ... the contrary happened. Go home z4.MAFIA, you are obviously drunk.


EDIT: Also, ED has been updated to a draw simulator. Noone kills anyone. Everyone escapes as of hitpoint ifplation. It took you several minutes to get Nerad down where he could jumped multiple times while doing a 720 backflip, rebooting and drinking a cup of tea but he only went to 0% because he wanted to ... because he did not want to wake and this is the point. There is no reason to PvP if noone dies anymore. It lacks in oneshotting and burst and bsaically the point where a fight is lost without being destroyed is FAR too early as of RPS game. Silent hull tank ship at 90% hull and 0% weapons. No chance of winning, low/high wake out -> draw.

I haven't destroyed a single CMDR PvPer unless he wanted to.

Anyone considering getting into PvP should read the above.

Add to the above that all of the best PvP equipment sits behind a PAY WALL, i.e., you need Horizons, and the state of PvP in ED becomes far, far bleaker.

Granted, it's not Horizons that's directly at fault here, it's RNGineers.

FD have skrewed the pooch good and proper this time. Well done, guys. Bravo. *golf clap*

 

[Lycan_Bravo]

What does 'balance' mean here? That every load-out on every ship has an equal chance of winning against any other load-out on any other ship, or against every other load-out on that particular ship? That's not balance, that's pretend.

A certain load-out on a certain ship is going to dominate every other in 1v1 combat (caveat for the pilotz sklillz), no matter what FDev does to rebalance, and CMDRs will move towards that new META. This isn't always going to be something that can be 'fixed' by FDev either. Someone will get really good on a particular build even though it's not technically the best, attracting other CMDRs to that build.

Rebalance will bring a new META, will bring a rebalance, will bring a new META. The game will always have a META, will always be 'unbalanced'.

Considering this is a video game I would say it falls pretty comfortably in the "pretend" arena. Plenty of games have achieved balanced gameplay catering to multiple play styles that makes it fun and engaging at the same time. FDev isn't off the hook for trying because it's hard.

Does this mean that all ships and load out's have to be equally effective at the same thing? No that is an extreme counter example. But multiple load out's can be effective in different ways.

A key part of doing that is having a game balanced by compromises. Looking at multicannons for example, the compromise used to be you trade shield damage for hull damage. Now you don't make any of those compromises, you get shield damage, and an all around damage boost.

So engineers has essentially made a game where you can MOD out weaknesses while buffing strengths reducing the need for build balance. Adverse effects of the mods just do not impact enough to balance the benefits.

So no every ship and weapon does not have to be equal, but that doesn't mean the alternative is convergent meta.

 

[deleteduser]

I don't see convergent META as anything but inevitable, no matter what FDev do.

Let's avoid the extreme examples and talk about 1-on-1 PvP. In this instance the most effective ship & loadout is ShipX-WeaponLoadA-ShieldLoad1 (currently FDL-MC-?). A new balance doesn't change this, it just changes which particular ship, weapons and shields form the META (can add mods too for X-A-1-A).

The outcome is that two equally skilled pilots fight themselves to a draw, as has been mentioned, whilst being able to annihilate everything that's not X-A-A. So every CMDR moves to X-A-A, because anything else is suicide.

This might look like a broken mechanic, but it is just a process of evolutionary design; X works, Y doesn't = Use X, Avoid Y. This will happen every time FDev rebalances the game.

This can sort of be avoided with wings & fleet battles, because you can have multiple, role specific ships; tanks, shield strippers, hull breachers etc..., but again, those role specific ships will tend to converge across fleets, on the most effective Ship-Load for a given role so two opposing fleets will look almost identical, and with equally skilled pilots will fight themselves to a draw.

It might also be avoided with a little innovative thinking. The FDL is basically just a converted Yacht, while there are several ships designed specifically for destroying other ships, but which are sadly ignored and which may hold the key to ending the FDL's PvP dominance given the right amount of care & attention currently lavished on rich boys toys.

Of course, this would become the META... etc...

 

[Crimson Kaim]

What does 'balance' mean here? That every load-out on every ship has an equal chance of winning against any other load-out on any other ship, or against every other load-out on that particular ship? That's not balance, that's pretend.

A certain load-out on a certain ship is going to dominate every other in 1v1 combat (caveat for the pilotz sklillz), no matter what FDev does to rebalance, and CMDRs will move towards that new META. This isn't always going to be something that can be 'fixed' by FDev either. Someone will get really good on a particular build even though it's not technically the best, attracting other CMDRs to that build.

Rebalance will bring a new META, will bring a rebalance, will bring a new META. The game will always have a META, will always be 'unbalanced'.

True but balanced means that I shouldn't be forced to use multicannons if I intend to destroy another ship. The worst pilot in a fully modded META ship currently wins against the best pilot in a non-META ship. I have tried triple plasmas with all of their effects against large ships. I would do better with a single C4F Multicannon. by the way, the large ship had a single C4F Pulse Laser and screwed my FAS. This is what we call unbalanced.

 

[Lobey]

Thanks for sharing - actual video is so much better than theorising. One thing that struck me was, do you find yourself having to return to re-arm a lot ? - looks like you chew through a hell of a lot of ammo. I'm mainly on the opposite side from pvp builds in that I build to blockade run, smuggle and the like so my aim isnt to kill the other guy, but to survive long enough to make it through to my destination in one piece. I find FAS perfect for this, but might try gunship again when 2.2 launches - I can see ai fighters getting sacrificed to "tie up" the "bad guys" while I make my run for instance.

 

[Truesilver]

One thing that struck me was, do you find yourself having to return to re-arm a lot ? - looks like you chew through a hell of a lot of ammo.

In PvP you rearm and repair after every single fight anyway, unless you're blockading no-hopers, so it's a given.

If you run out of ammo during a fight of course we all have tons of basic synthesis now.

 

[deleteduser]

True but balanced means that I shouldn't be forced to use multicannons if I intend to destroy another ship.

Kind of does, if that's what it takes.

The worst pilot in a fully modded META ship currently wins against the best pilot in a non-META ship.

I disagree with this. If you're as good as you think you are (and I'm not saying you're not that good), you'll find a way to fly around the worst CMDR in META issue without yourself resorting to META. Have you checked every possible build for every other ship?

I have tried triple plasmas with all of their effects against large ships. I would do better with a single C4F Multicannon.

If it works, use it. Don't use the thing that doesn't work.

by the way, the large ship had a single C4F Pulse Laser and screwed my FAS. This is what we call unbalanced.

This might be what you should call 'too high expectations'. Again, if it doesn't work, don't use it.

Take a look at TrueSilver above, taking on engineered FDL's in a Courier....

 

[Crash1099]

In 2.1 Pipko and I had a duel and it was basically RPS. I had emissive and he had no shields, I win. Then we agreed on not using feedback rails and emissive seekers (so only multicannons). I would win as long as I had chaff and he would win because I have fixed wepaons.

Then again, I could use dumbfires and criple his (and your) weapons so unless you go for stury mounts you are screwed by missiles IF you don't use PDTs and you really need more than one which means you lack in heatsinks, atleast on everything but the FDL which is why the FDL is the uber king in PvP at the moment even more than it was pre 2.1 so what did you just say? Build diversity? Yeah, on a FDL. It is just no longer FDL shield tank only but FDL shield tank or FDL hull tank. Everything else is not viable (eventually a hull tank Clipper but that's about it).

FDL FDL FDL FDL FDL. That's the only thing you see in supercruise. Everyone flying an FDL basically tells everyone "I am a PvPer!". Everyone who does not tells everyone "I am not a PvPer or just too stupid to adapt to the meta!".

Large ships get countered by a C1F Feedback Cascade Railgun. Silent ships get countered by stupid 1000% heat generation increase and a C1F Emissive Pulse Laser and Missiles.

And please do not let me start with weapons. Multicannons FTW. If you don't go multicannons you simply WANT to suicide. Multicannons my friend, multicannons.

No, FD have done everything but working towards build diversity. Pre 2.1 Plasmas were useful, railguns were (a little too much) useful, hull tanking was useful, lasers were useful, missiles were NOT useful, large ships were useful, medium ships were useful, FAS, Clipper, FDL, Python were all viable, small ships were useful like Couriers or DBs and even Vipers.

But now it is Multicannons with a Feedback Railgun and eventually some missiles or another corrosive MULTICANNON.



No, no, no. We are way behind the level of build diversity pre 2.1 and you really can't tell me they are focusing on achieving that because they have done everything what is possible with their power to make a single build so damn overpowered that really nothing else can beat it anymore. The only ship you see in PvP is the FDL and in wings eventually a Cutter.

It is another pathetic fact that the community partially refuses to use thermal shock/cascade because it is EVEN MORE OVERPOWERED than the already overpowered FDL-Multicannon build. And I highly assume that would be the same if feedbackrails would instantly break a ship's shields when hitting a banking one. I don't even ask what they have been thinking when trying that out or writing that, I question wheather or not they have been thinking AT ALL. Even someone who never played ED at all would instantly realise that this is WAY TOO DAMN OVERPOWERED. Like basically everything the engineers have to offer.

No, FD have not build towards build diversity ... the contrary happened. Go home z4.MAFIA, you are obviously drunk.


EDIT: Also, ED has been updated to a draw simulator. Noone kills anyone. Everyone escapes as of hitpoint ifplation. It took you several minutes to get Nerad down where he could jumped multiple times while doing a 720 backflip, rebooting and drinking a cup of tea but he only went to 0% because he wanted to ... because he did not want to wake and this is the point. There is no reason to PvP if noone dies anymore. It lacks in oneshotting and burst and bsaically the point where a fight is lost without being destroyed is FAR too early as of RPS game. Silent hull tank ship at 90% hull and 0% weapons. No chance of winning, low/high wake out -> draw.

I haven't destroyed a single CMDR PvPer unless he wanted to.

To be Honest the FDL needs some competition. You wanna pvp FDL all they way.

 

[deleteduser]

META debunked

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/298432-Federal-Gunship-PvP-Dancing-Queen!-FA-LS-off

 

[z4.MAFIA]

I could use dumbfires and criple his (and your) weapons so unless you go for stury mounts you are screwed by missiles IF you don't use PDTs and you really need more than one which means you lack in heatsinks, atleast on everything but the FDL which is why the FDL is the uber king in PvP at the moment even more than it was pre 2.1 so what did you just say? Build diversity? Yeah, on a FDL. It is just no longer FDL shield tank only but FDL shield tank or FDL hull tank. Everything else is not viable (eventually a hull tank Clipper but that's about it).

FDL FDL FDL FDL FDL. That's the only thing you see in supercruise. Everyone flying an FDL basically tells everyone "I am a PvPer!". Everyone who does not tells everyone "I am not a PvPer or just too stupid to adapt to the meta!".

My new build actually uses sturdy mounts. When 2.2 drops, the fixing of PD and ECM will make missiles a non issue. The FDL is not the only viable ship in PvP. For example, I have a freind with a DEADLY shieldless FAS. Everyone seems to think the FAS is dead but he mops the floor in his. You just have to find an effective build. That goes for any combat ship in the game. They are all viable (some more than others) once an effective build is found.

Silent ships get countered by stupid 1000% heat generation increase and a C1F Emissive Pulse Laser and Missiles.

With the right modifications, a shieldless ship can withstand heat. With 2.2, silent running has been eliminated as a combat tactic, so emissive will not matter and Missiles have a proper counter in 2.2 with PD and ECM being fixed.

It is another pathetic fact that the community partially refuses to use thermal shock/cascade because it is EVEN MORE OVERPOWERED than the already overpowered FDL-Multicannon build.

Are you aware that thermal shock has been nerfed two times since its inception?

No, FD have not build towards build diversity ... the contrary happened. Go home z4.MAFIA, you are obviously drunk.

There is still work to be done as far as making every class of combat ship as viable as possible in PvP but what I meant was they are fostering build diverstiy as far as shieldess and shielded builds go.

ED has been updated to a draw simulator. Noone kills anyone. Everyone escapes as of hitpoint ifplation. It took you several minutes to get Nerad down where he could jumped multiple times while doing a 720 backflip, rebooting and drinking a cup of tea but he only went to 0% because he wanted to ... because he did not want to wake and this is the point. There is no reason to PvP if noone dies anymore. It lacks in oneshotting and burst and bsaically the point where a fight is lost without being destroyed is FAR too early as of RPS game. Silent hull tank ship at 90% hull and 0% weapons. No chance of winning, low/high wake out -> draw.

I haven't destroyed a single CMDR PvPer unless he wanted to.

ED has always been a game where death was a choice. All anyone needs to do is emergency drop at the first sign of another CMDR. You shouldn't put so much emphasis on killing a CMDR meaning victory though. Waking out in PvP is done most of the time because death would follow if it wasn't done. Forcing a wake should be just as meaningful as getting a kill.

 

[Rinzler o7o7o7]

META debunked

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/298432-Federal-Gunship-PvP-Dancing-Queen!-FA-LS-off

Crimson Kaim knows what he's talking about though. He killed my gunship with an FDL.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Kind of does, if that's what it takes.


I disagree with this. If you're as good as you think you are (and I'm not saying you're not that good), you'll find a way to fly around the worst CMDR in META issue without yourself resorting to META. Have you checked every possible build for every other ship?


If it works, use it. Don't use the thing that doesn't work.


This might be what you should call 'too high expectations'. Again, if it doesn't work, don't use it.

Take a look at TrueSilver above, taking on engineered FDL's in a Courier....

I already do what you are saying. Right now I have a G5 OC Multicannon Inci FDL build with obviously a feedback rail and another weapon free of my choice. On top of that, mega shields and obviously dirty drives for 0% ToT loss.

High TTK with high ToT is just an RPG game.

And yes, I'd still recommend as I have upon the release of 2.1 to revert the patch to 2.0.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Crimson Kaim knows what he's talking about though. He killed my gunship with an FDL.

If the connectivity allowed me to!

 

[Crimson Kaim]

My new build actually uses sturdy mounts. When 2.2 drops, the fixing of PD and ECM will make missiles a non issue. The FDL is not the only viable ship in PvP. For example, I have a freind with a DEADLY shieldless FAS. Everyone seems to think the FAS is dead but he mops the floor in his. You just have to find an effective build. That goes for any combat ship in the game. They are all viable (some more than others) once an effective build is found.

I am happy to do some tests. I create a META ship that is focused on hulltank encounters and do a 1v1.



With the right modifications, a shieldless ship can withstand heat. With 2.2, silent running has been eliminated as a combat tactic, so emissive will not matter and Missiles have a proper counter in 2.2 with PD and ECM being fixed.

Then again. What can you do against a dumbfire fired right in front of your face? (Being launched from like 100 meters) Nothing. The PDTs do not react fast enough.



Are you aware that thermal shock has been nerfed two times since its inception?

Yes, and even after several "balance" passes it was still ridiculous. Rinzler's awesome SpicyBoiz press release which got featured in several gaming magazines laughing about the "balance" in Elite proves that.

There is still work to be done as far as making every class of combat ship as viable as possible in PvP but what I meant was they are fostering build diverstiy as far as shieldess and shielded builds go.

ALOT of work has to be done. But as said: No longer FDL shield tank but FDL shield tank OR FDL hull tank.

ED has always been a game where death was a choice. All anyone needs to do is emergency drop at the first sign of another CMDR. You shouldn't put so much emphasis on killing a CMDR meaning victory though. Waking out in PvP is done most of the time because death would follow if it wasn't done. Forcing a wake should be just as meaningful as getting a kill.

Sure, if you start considering the time in supercruise but I actually meant the time when a wing of 4 is interdicting another player. Previously this player would be more or less gone but today as everyone MUST use multicannons not even a wing of 12 could scratch my mega shields.

Answers in red.

 

[StiTch]

In 2.1 Pipko and I had a duel and it was basically RPS. I had emissive and he had no shields, I win. Then we agreed on not using feedback rails and emissive seekers (so only multicannons). I would win as long as I had chaff and he would win because I have fixed wepaons.

Then again, I could use dumbfires and criple his (and your) weapons so unless you go for stury mounts you are screwed by missiles IF you don't use PDTs and you really need more than one which means you lack in heatsinks, atleast on everything but the FDL which is why the FDL is the uber king in PvP at the moment even more than it was pre 2.1 so what did you just say? Build diversity? Yeah, on a FDL. It is just no longer FDL shield tank only but FDL shield tank or FDL hull tank. Everything else is not viable (eventually a hull tank Clipper but that's about it).

FDL FDL FDL FDL FDL. That's the only thing you see in supercruise. Everyone flying an FDL basically tells everyone "I am a PvPer!". Everyone who does not tells everyone "I am not a PvPer or just too stupid to adapt to the meta!".

Large ships get countered by a C1F Feedback Cascade Railgun. Silent ships get countered by stupid 1000% heat generation increase and a C1F Emissive Pulse Laser and Missiles.

And please do not let me start with weapons. Multicannons FTW. If you don't go multicannons you simply WANT to suicide. Multicannons my friend, multicannons.

No, FD have done everything but working towards build diversity. Pre 2.1 Plasmas were useful, railguns were (a little too much) useful, hull tanking was useful, lasers were useful, missiles were NOT useful, large ships were useful, medium ships were useful, FAS, Clipper, FDL, Python were all viable, small ships were useful like Couriers or DBs and even Vipers.

But now it is Multicannons with a Feedback Railgun and eventually some missiles or another corrosive MULTICANNON.



No, no, no. We are way behind the level of build diversity pre 2.1 and you really can't tell me they are focusing on achieving that because they have done everything what is possible with their power to make a single build so damn overpowered that really nothing else can beat it anymore. The only ship you see in PvP is the FDL and in wings eventually a Cutter.

It is another pathetic fact that the community partially refuses to use thermal shock/cascade because it is EVEN MORE OVERPOWERED than the already overpowered FDL-Multicannon build. And I highly assume that would be the same if feedbackrails would instantly break a ship's shields when hitting a banking one. I don't even ask what they have been thinking when trying that out or writing that, I question wheather or not they have been thinking AT ALL. Even someone who never played ED at all would instantly realise that this is WAY TOO DAMN OVERPOWERED. Like basically everything the engineers have to offer.

No, FD have not build towards build diversity ... the contrary happened. Go home z4.MAFIA, you are obviously drunk.


EDIT: Also, ED has been updated to a draw simulator. Noone kills anyone. Everyone escapes as of hitpoint ifplation. It took you several minutes to get Nerad down where he could jumped multiple times while doing a 720 backflip, rebooting and drinking a cup of tea but he only went to 0% because he wanted to ... because he did not want to wake and this is the point. There is no reason to PvP if noone dies anymore. It lacks in oneshotting and burst and bsaically the point where a fight is lost without being destroyed is FAR too early as of RPS game. Silent hull tank ship at 90% hull and 0% weapons. No chance of winning, low/high wake out -> draw.

I haven't destroyed a single CMDR PvPer unless he wanted to.

This.

Every last bit of respect to OP for making a "preferred" build work, but it still stands that it's largely only effective against the unprepared or total lemons.

It's not 100% doom and gloom, because the "unplanned" PvP is still out there and alive. I can still whack stuff in a RES or a CZ, run into another CMDR there for the same reason, fire a few shots at each other and get into a proper scuffle complete with death on one side.

Anywhere PvP is effectively expected? CGs? Nah, I can't be bothered with them. I don't think I was ever that bothered with them, but post-2.1 all the builds are exactly as above.

EDIT: And again as above, in spontaneous PvP forcing a high-wake out is much like a combat log (or at least as far as I see it, because CLs just make me laugh)...you've forced someone out there to run with their tail between their legs, and in the instance of CLing, you hit them hard enough to know they had to force close their game. Until we can fetch real bounties, you still know you have won. In meta PvP areas such as the CG the inability to effectively kill someone before the high-wake becomes an issue, because people will high-wake out and return 2 minutes later without a scratch on their ship.

I have always said I see no reason from a game play perspective for high wakes to ignore mass locks.

 

[deleteduser]

If we accept PvP is broken by META, and if we accept that 'balancing' is itself a balancing act that can go wrong, would an in-game solution; to have the Shipyards update their designs on a regular basis, be an appropriate response?

For instance:

Lakon gets regular complaints from customers that the T9 keeps exploding (nice work on the escape pods though man, they're frickin awesome). Having plenty of data on hand to detect the problem, Lakon notices that the T9 usually explodes in response to heavy fire from other ships. Lakon also notices that very few CMDRs use shields in their T9 and that very few T9 CMDRs put up much of a fight. Rethinking their design, Lakon sacrifice some of their Harpoints in favour of better thrusters and more utility modules, and fit shields as a Core Module, without sacrificing Cargo Max capability.

Meanwhile, Core Dynamics gets a ton of complaints from its CMDRs that in-spite of its Play Boy image, the FDL is actually a better ship for 1-on-1 combat, than their own built-for-combat gunships and fighters. In response to their customers fleeing for greener pastures, Core Dynamics has no choice but to update its ships. The Vulture, heavily down on power as standard, gets a new C5 PP, balanced in the Vulture's frame by losing a C1 internal or perhaps by changing the Class 5 internal to a Class 4.

This didn't seem so intensely a.n.al (really forums?) as I was considering it, but now that it's typed out...?

Anyhoo;

The result is that the Shipyards force PvP'ers to innovate and find the new META on a regular basis, whilst giving Open PvE'ers some regular, if brief, respite from 'insta-death'. No doubt, the Shipyards will occasionally f*ck it up, leading to numerous 'x is broken' threads but what's new? They'll also be in a position to recall and update their designs on a fairly frequent basis.