P2P is broken

Have you even looked at PP or tried it??

All "undermine" tasks are countered by "fortify" tasks.
And as long as the trigger is met, you stop the "undermine" regardless of how much effort the attacking team put in.

And, "blockades" have NEVER been part of ED. EVER.

Yes thank you, I've been playing Powerplay since it launched. Do you understand what the purpose of the Fortify mechanic is? If you successfully fortify a system, you don't pay upkeep in the following cycle. For a large power such as Hudson this is CRITICAL to be able to maintain growth. Costs have to be cut.

Players can undermine fortification attempts by reaching a trigger. Whatever the activity is, whether it's intercepting cargo or destroying ships, if they meet the trigger then the fortification attempt is cancelled.

Therefore a power can be slowly strangled by preventing its systems from being fortified. And what is the power's response to such a scenario? You would expect that they can band together and clear out or destroy ships that are trying to undermine their fortification attempts. But they can't do so if the undermining players are in Solo or Private.

Looking at it from the other side, if you Undermine a system, reach the trigger and the system owner doesn't reach the Fortify trigger to cancel both, that should throw the system into Turmoil. But how can that ever happen when all the owning Power has to do is play in solo/private and fortify the system, with NO RISK whatsoever that enemy CMDRs will try to interrupt them?

I'm not speculating that playing in private modes to avoid pvp interdictions *may* happen, we see it broadcasted all over this forum and others that it does indeed happen and there are some rather large player groups playing this way on purpose.

Are you following now?

Powerplay is built on flawed game systems, including but not limited to p2p.

Ask yourself this - why oh why is there not even a basic, power-specific chat that all pledges can use? I can think of a few reasons without much effort - let's see, 1. there's apparently no global chat server, so any kind of broadcast chat is only ever going to be limited to those in your instance; 2. Even if there was a power level chat, the likelihood that anyone responding to a call to arms would meet up in the same instance is probably less than 50/50; 3. What would be the purpose of using chat to coordinate the activities when a huge part of the playerbase isn't even in Open play? In other words, why use chat to coordinate activity in a system ("hey, let's patrol X system and prevent Duval from preparing it!") when it's just as likely that the enemies will be in solo/private?

The answer is, there's no power-chat because there's no reliable way to coordinate players, and that's largely because of the p2p game design.

If you look at my post history you will see some criticism but also very supportive commentary on this game, but these kind of issues have been foreseen. It's frustrating that something with so much potential is only going to be a shell of what it could have been, but now the game is out and core mechanics are established and it's unlikely to change. I would be thrilled if I was wrong about that but I've seen no signs that I might be.

PS Blockades have been part of this game from the beginning - just look at post from player groups that were blockading systems like Lave - if you're talking about blockading as an actual thing imposed by the game itself, by an NPC faction for example, then yes I agree that there are no such things as blockades. But I'm talking about blockades as a player response to powerplay activities because in a couple of scenarios it appears to be the only recourse for a Power, but is impossible to execute due to game design.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
I'm not speculating that playing in private modes to avoid pvp interdictions *may* happen, we see it broadcasted all over this forum and others that it does indeed happen and there are some rather large player groups playing this way on purpose.

You are indeed speculating if all you do is to draw conclusions from what you read in the forums...

I understand your concern but, do you actually have any actual figures for numbers of players in Solo vs Open in Powerplay?
 
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You are indeed speculating if all you do is to draw conclusions from what you read in the forums...

Do you actually have any actual figures for numbers of players in Solo vs Open in Powerplay?

If someone says that they're playing in solo or private to avoid pvp, then it's not speculation. Not sure what the confusion is with that statement.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
If someone says that they're playing in solo or private to avoid pvp, then it's not speculation. Not sure what the confusion is with that statement.

It is a double speculation actually:

- First you have no idea if the statement is actually truth or false: I say that I play in Solo 90% of the time, will you trust my statement aswell?
- Second, even if truthful you have no idea of how many actual Solo/Private players are out there compared to Open in Powerplay at any given time, and in which areas. Without this information (among other details) it is impossible to understand if we have an issue in our hands or not. For all I know there may be tons of players in Open out there that you should be able to meet and be kept busy with if you happen to be at the same time in the same place asuming instancing works well. It may very well be that they are in Open and you simply miss them, either by location, by time or by instancing problems.
 
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It is a double speculation actually:

- First you have no idea if the statement is actually truth or false: I say that I play in Solo 90% of the time, will you trust my statement aswell?
- Second, even if truthful you have no idea of how many actual Solo/Private players are out there compared to Open in Powerplay at any given time, and in which areas. Without this information (among other details) it is impossible to understand if we have an issue in our hands or not. For all I know there may be tons of players in Open out there that you should be able to meet if you happen to be at the same time in the same place asuming instancing works well. It may very well be that they are in Open and you simply miss them, either by location, by time or by instancing problems.

Viajero - I'm not sure what specific issue you're responding to - I'm posting about issues with Powerplay due to the p2p design, but I think you are replying to the original poster's issues with p2p. All I can say in response to your message above is that without actual statistics supplied by FD, all we can do is try to make our best guesses about how the game works based on the evidence we have. If I read lots of posts here and other places like Steam forums and Reddit that players are doing powerplay in private or solo to avoid PVP, then without contradictory and final evidence from FD I have to assume that is true.

I would ***LOVE*** to see a chart from FD that shows what percentage of total player activity in powerplay is coming from players in solo, private and open play. That would put an end to this debate one way or another!
 
One thing I will say is that it would probably be helpful if there was a networking setup page in the settings of the game. So rather than have to dig around in game files it would be useful if there was a page to set the game up for port forwarding or uPnP.

Indeed, if people have re-installed the game using steam they'll also need to reset their port forwarding in the appropriate file since they will have likely lost their settings. ;)
 
I mean really, is this now what this supposed MMO is, pandering only to single wings with no organized PvP?

Just look at power play, the only way to win is to out-grind your opponenets in solo.

Frontier doesnt' really care about Open.

This is self-evident by the fact that it takes longer to wake scan a high wake, than it does to press log out. making wake scanning entirely useless.

They don't even have 1 person on the dev team who does pvp - most likely, actually 98% likely.
 
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....
I would ***LOVE*** to see a chart from FD that shows what percentage of total player activity in powerplay is coming from players in solo, private and open play. That would put an end to this debate one way or another!

I think we all would love to see those numbers.

But what makes you think it would end the debate?

David Braben AMA Thread said:
quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Adept
For fun :)

That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.


Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.

^^ That didn't end it and it should have done.

FuzzySpider said:
The mechanics of powerplay, particularly the interface between player and power being an almost direct copy of the community goal model, gives the entire experience an MMO-guild type feel to the gameplay.


Is this MMO-style a new direction for Elite: Dangerous? Or will you be still focussing on the single player immersive experience, even if that single player is playing in a universe filled with other players?


Thank's very much to you and the FDev team for all of your efforts. One or two subjective niggles of mine aside the game is the one I've been waiting for for years and I'm totally enamoured with it.


We are supporting multiplayer and the solo experience. Community Goals are carrying on too.

^^ This also should have put some folks in their place, but it didn't.

If the man in charge says Solo players balances Solo players and the Solo play is being supported in Power Play - plus designs the game around a network solution that is better suited to single or small encounters;

Direct Twitch Link; (Note DB use "Occasonial" and "unusual" regarding players interacting)
http://www.twitch.tv/egx/b/571962295?t=69m00s


Even with all of this proof, players still claim the game is broken - when it clearly is not.
I assure you, even with the numbers - the debate would not end - too many people are not informed over what ED is or how it works before they buy it. Next stop, the forums to complain it's "broken".
 
I think we all would love to see those numbers.

But what makes you think it would end the debate?



^^ That didn't end it and it should have done.



^^ This also should have put some folks in their place, but it didn't.

If the man in charge says Solo players balances Solo players and the Solo play is being supported in Power Play - plus designs the game around a network solution that is better suited to single or small encounters;

Direct Twitch Link; (Note DB use "Occasonial" and "unusual" regarding players interacting)
http://www.twitch.tv/egx/b/571962295?t=69m00s


Even with all of this proof, players still claim the game is broken - when it clearly is not.
I assure you, even with the numbers - the debate would not end - too many people are not informed over what ED is or how it works before they buy it. Next stop, the forums to complain it's "broken".

I had a lengthier reply ready, but I'm just going to cut it here and say you still haven't responded to my point about fortifying systems and how there's no way to prevent undermining of those systems. So it appears you're just posting in my general direction but not really addressing my points.

Either you can't or more likely don't want to try to understand and engage in the conversation - that's fine. I'm glad you're enjoying the game and hopefully you'll play it for a long time. For me and my enjoyment of the game, I can only hope that FD will take the feedback they're getting and give us some real answers about what the direction is with Powerplay and on the multiplayer aspect of ED overall.
 
Another is the severe difficulty often experienced with getting just one wing together in the same instance. Nevermind several. We get reports of enemy wing in our Powers capital, we organize, we go there - and nothing. People screaming on IRC that they are getting butt-****** by said enemy wing, but we can only pick our noses and twiddle our thumbs - because for all intents and purposes, it all takes place in a parallel universe.

The laundry-list of issues with the current P2P mechanic of MP instancing is game-braking for those of us that enjoy PvP combat. That's the short of it. If you don't like or want PvP, but are more than content with PvE, then fine. This thread is not for you.

With groups organized on teamspeak, mumble, etc. we have a real-time reliable method of figuring out what is going on. Any serious mmo-pvp group uses voice comm programs like this to coordinate and organize. When faced with game breaking situations like the one mentioned above, which is quite common in my experience as well as the experience of the majority of people who are on teamspeak, I feel quite safe in assuming that this problem is widespread among the community. It seems the game wasn't designed for this kind of group pvp interaction and doesn't have the proper networking infrastructure to support it. So it seems that we should just give up on the dream of large space battles, until something gets fixed.
 
You can have large space battles with as many NPC's as you can handle. If you want large battles purely with other players, 32 is your hard limit, and realistically less than that.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero - I'm not sure what specific issue you're responding to - I'm posting about issues with Powerplay due to the p2p design, but I think you are replying to the original poster's issues with p2p. All I can say in response to your message above is that without actual statistics supplied by FD, all we can do is try to make our best guesses about how the game works based on the evidence we have. If I read lots of posts here and other places like Steam forums and Reddit that players are doing powerplay in private or solo to avoid PVP, then without contradictory and final evidence from FD I have to assume that is true.

I would ***LOVE*** to see a chart from FD that shows what percentage of total player activity in powerplay is coming from players in solo, private and open play. That would put an end to this debate one way or another!

Yeh, I think the conversation got derailed a bit off strict p2p issues and meandered across to solo vs open as we tend to mix them all up a bit. But the argument of "not being able to stop undermining" comes up over and over and over again, all without having a single shred of valid data to back anything up, other than posts in forums and players speculation by fearing the worst.

In my opinion I think there are 3 main reasons for players not being able to meet others in game, be it while undermining or otherwise:

1 - p2p and related instancing problems
2 - missing each other in time or missing each other in location
3 - Solo vs Open play

Notice how Solo vs Open play is just one more element in the equation. The problem seems to be people read the forums and assume right away it is the main culprit (if not the only one).

I have already made a proposal to handle No 2 above, Open players missing each other, somewhere else, but I think No 1 would be holding it (or anything similar) back anyways.

I think we all would love to see those numbers.

But what makes you think it would end the debate?

That could indeed be the case. I guess it would depend on the level of detail and clarity of the data.

If for example we knew that 70% of players having pledged to a Power played in Open 90% of the time things could be seen differently altogether.

But either way, numbers or no numbers I am of the opinion that the perceptions of the ED community and the gaming community at large can be more important than reality. If the community perception is leading to an overall break of trust in the system then FDEV would need to take action irrespective of reality. It is obviously difficult to measure this "break of trust" aswell, but I would think FDEV is currently looking at some of the Solo vs Open figures in relation to new and old players alike and overall time played, trying to establish some trends. At least that is what I d do.
 
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