Pandora's box is open

[macronecu]

I don't wish to restart any Orca related discussions because I think everyone on the forum probably knows most of the regular posters views on that topic one way or another but please forgive me if I use them to illustrate my own thinking on this just because they are a good example.

I personally don't build realistic zoos and think there should be a balance of weird animals that are less available to the public to see in real life (proboscis monkeys) versus species that allow the realistic builders to stick with zoos of today. I think that makes Planet Zoo a better educational tool. Which brings up the issue of animal welfare in captivity which is where everyone tends to draw a different line from 'it's pixels, we should be able to do what we want' to 'games are a part of culture that influences people, all zoos are bad therefore the game shouldn't exist'. Most of us are somewhere in the middle and my own experience working with captive wild animals also changes how I feel about some welfare issues so there is a personal element as well (no thank you feeding stations, the animals get overfed and over familiar with humans).

In your list of categories I personally would have one that is 'has major welfare issues that will probably never be solveable within a captive environment'. So diet issues would likely be totally solveable with a bottomless budget, as would humidty and climatic conditions. Extra research might reveal that the sloth just needs a particular type of essential oil in their food. However, I don't believe that it will ever be possible to meet the behavioural needs of larger cetaceans in a zoo because of the size of the habitat you would need (not just in two dimensions but in 3 because of the depths they inhabit), their complex social structures and behaviour and need for stimulation and the excellent evidence of their emotional intelligence. This is just me but they ain't in the category of 'no thanks' because of Blackfish. I would have the same qualms about Albatross for example and I've not seen any documentaries about them.

maybe welfare should be divided into physiological and psychological? because from what i remember there are orcas that survive fourty fifty years in the smallest pools with low welfare.. physical health should be separated in the list maybe
depth would also be solved in bottomless budget, but social and pyschology i don't know.. maybe not.. i wonder why other smart animals don't have this problem.. like chimps.. or they do?

 

[NZFanatic]

This is just me but they ain't in the category of 'no thanks' because of Blackfish

I get so sick of people saying "YoU dON't WaNT thEM beCAuSe of BLACKFISH" as though there isn't a bunch of other research out there about why it's a bad idea to keep orca in captivity.

 

[ElectricMonk]

maybe welfare should be divided into physiological and psychological? because from what i remember there are orcas that survive fourty fifty years in the smallest pools with low welfare.. physical health should be separated in the list maybe
depth would also be solved in bottomless budget, but social and pyschology i don't know.. maybe not.. i wonder why other smart animals don't have this problem.. like chimps.. or they do?

Chimps can be provided with both a large (equivalent or nearly-so) social group and can be provided with a complex environment. Neither is true for orca.

 

[macronecu]

I get so sick of people saying "YoU dON't WaNT thEM beCAuSe of BLACKFISH" as though there isn't a bunch of other research out there about why it's a bad idea to keep orca in captivity.

i just want to make clear this was not what i meant
when i say hot topic i refer to unequal treatment of different animals based on how popular an animal or its welfare is at the time in popular media
sadly masses get motivated by herd instinct.. rational thinking and scientific evidence alone isnt always enough for publicity
you have millions booing captivity situations of one animal when another doesnt get any attention while being in similar condition or worse
this is why i separated actual survivability and human factors (laws, popularity) in op
but im planning to break it further with feedback by community

Chimps can be provided with both a large (equivalent or nearly-so) social group and can be provided with a complex environment. Neither is true for orca.

we were talking in context of bottomless budget, where tank size and depth is not a problem
conclusion was even with an infinitely big and deep tank, their social needs wont be met
but from what you said i understand it is actually possible?

 

[ElectricMonk]

i just want to make clear this was not what i meant
when i say hot topic i refer to unequal treatment of different animals based on how popular an animal or its welfare is at the time in popular media
sadly masses get motivated by herd instinct.. rational thinking and scientific evidence alone isnt always enough for publicity
you have millions booing captivity situations of one animal when another doesnt get any attention while being in similar condition or worse
this is why i separated actual survivability and human factors (laws, popularity) in op
but im planning to break it further with feedback by community


we were talking in context of bottomless budget, where tank size and depth is not a problem
conclusion was even with an infinitely big and deep tank, their social needs wont be met
but from what you said i understand it is actually possible?

Unlimited is a big word - I can’t see a realistic way to keep them in an artificial tank though - irrespective of the size I can’t realistically see how it could be made complex enough.

 

[Antimony96]

Good summary. I can understand the choices of the pronghorn because they probably wanted a companion for the bison and the New World theme, and specially the pangolin due to its great education value as the most trafficked animal, with its matching conservation board, and at least they chose the most common captive pangolin instead of a species with zero zoo presence.
But all the others? What annoys me is that they had way better options without problems.

• Lehmann's poison frog: Any of the dozens of dart frogs more common in captivity? If you want one with black spots to contrast with the golden frog, the green and black poison frog was a great option. And if you wanted one with red and black spots, the Amazon poison frog is very similar to the Lehmann's but with blue legs, so even prettier (and more common in zoos).
• Goliath frog: Apart of the mentioned cane toad, if you prefer a giant true frog over a toad, the better option was probably the mountain chicken, which is struggling to survive in the wild and relying on captive breeding for its future.
• Titan beetle: If you want a giant South American beetle in capitivity, the Hercules beetle should be the choice. Even better, choose any of the big species of rhinoceros beetle or stag beetle that don't come from South America, as it has been since base game the continent with the most exhibit species.

Some of the base game exhibit choices were bizarre. It's one thing to have animals that are rare in captivity but particularly unique/charismatic (proboscis monkey, platypus) and another to make choices like these where there were alternatives that were superior in every imaginable way.

Also with regards to pronghorn, they have a decent captive presence in North America, just none in Europe.

 

[Fossa]

A game without Platypus, Proboscis monkey and Pronghorn would be boring, three of the best animal choices they made by far, just not for your realism-lovers, for me = paradise. Hands off, Frontier, PLanet zoo 2, keep adding these.

 

[yoav_r]

I don't think we should encourage Frontier to pick even more species with no zoo presence. That "box" was opened by the HBB in the base game, and I'd rather it stay close as much as possible.

 

[macronecu]

Unlimited is a big word

yes it is, but since they used term bottomless budget i replied to them in this context

I don't think we should encourage Frontier to pick even more species with no zoo presence. That "box" was opened by the HBB in the base game, and I'd rather it stay close as much as possible.

i want to repeat that the box in this thread signifies ethics around animal survivability in captivity, not realism or zoo presence

 

[TheDuckKnight]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about Pronghorns not being in captivity. But in fairness, here in New York, we have them alongside bison in the Queens Zoo, and they're thriving - having bred several times over the years.

 

[macronecu]

I'm seeing a lot of discussion about Pronghorns not being in captivity. But in fairness, here in New York, we have them alongside bison in the Queens Zoo, and they're thriving - having bred several times over the years.

interesting, so humidity is not bothering them? wonder why they aren't common in europe then? maybe there is some law against exports?

 

[abigenius]

interesting, so humidity is not bothering them? wonder why they aren't common in europe then? maybe there is some law against exports?

More than humidity problems, since they can live in dry arid climates and cold forests with humidity, the problem is usually with the altitude and problems related to that, since in Ideal places they do well in captivity.

 

[TacticianLyra]

I think Frontier is going to do whatever the heck they want, given the lack of competition in the genre.

 

[FoxyDee]

I don't think we should encourage Frontier to pick even more species with no zoo presence. That "box" was opened by the HBB in the base game, and I'd rather it stay close as much as possible.

Actually, there are 2 zoos that have Himalayan Brown Bears in Europe and 3 other places in Russia and Ukraine.
I live in Czech Republic, one of those countries that have them, and they even had cubs.

Titan Beetle on the other hand…

 

[sympatrick]

i thought leopard seal and saiga was possible but not common because of other reasons?

guys i'm not an expert on this topic and i started this thread after a google search, please help me break it down (im thinking about splitting my list)
i'm thinking about these categories:

• does not thrive at all
• thrives within native range (climate)
• thrives when has specialized diet
• hot topic in media (welfare)
• illegal to export or conservation program limits
• does not breed or rarely breeds
• is rare because of availability or popularity

i'm thinking in this order from most difficult to least, what do you think? which animal goes where?

That many subcategories could lead to more confusion, I think. You could merge the location related ones for instance, like climate and specialised diet.

 

[macronecu]

More than humidity problems, since they can live in dry arid climates and cold forests with humidity, the problem is usually with the altitude and problems related to that, since in Ideal places they do well in captivity.

but new york is sea level and so is most of europe

 

[oca2074]

Chimps can be provided with both a large (equivalent or nearly-so) social group and can be provided with a complex environment. Neither is true for orca.

Frontier (if they want to have orcas and dolphins) should require we put them in massive sea pens where they can dive as deep as they want and have relative freedom in a large area. You can only have them for coastal maps where an entire stretch of bay or cove could be designated as a sea pen and it would hold orcas or dolphins. It should cost a gargantuan amount of money. Activists have always planned to build them to provide an alternative or retirement home to captive orcas/dolphins living in tiny tanks. But the cost has made it impractical, no one is willing to invest tens of millions to build better facilities for them.

Luxury Living for Retired Whales | Hakai Magazine

The Whale Sanctuary Project wants to build an ocean home for captive killer whales.

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