Panther Clipper

You can make that [valid] criticism for a lot of the suggestions made here, but at some point it becomes a circular firing squad. I'd appreciate the Panther XL just on the basis that some shipyard should have statted out the maximum size the existing landing infrastructure could handle - in the same way the need to be able to transit the Panama Canal sets the maximum spec on surface freighters. That and if they already have the model and specs for the XL it should be easier to implement the ship than to rebalance all the various game loops the extra hauling tonnage would facilitate.

that criticism isn't a circular firing squad. It has a very simple request, provide a reason that stands alone for why an even larger cargo ship is needed in the game when hauling cargo is already without balance and incredibly successful at making players rich very fast using much smaller (compared to this hypothetical panther) ships.

Pointing out game mechanics unrelated to ships is not a viable reason. Adding means to circumvent things that are bad/unwanted/poorly implemented/boring and can be adjusted to not be those things is not a good way to deal with the game. It doesn't solve the problem that you think this hypothetical solution is going to provide, it just carves out more of the "game" and leaves you with less. Until eventually you're left with some tiny little subset niche of the game to repeat over and over to the point you can't tell anyone what you are playing all the time because they look at you with concern and worry and want to know if you need help when you explain.
 
I'd appreciate the Panther XL just on the basis that some shipyard should have statted out the maximum size the existing landing infrastructure could handle - in the same way the need to be able to transit the Panama Canal sets the maximum spec on surface freighters.

Do we know what the maximum spec for ships entering an Orbital's station mail slot is? I suspect the larger ships are very close to the threshold. Certainly the automated docking assist is functioning at the hairy edge with certain ships. I would expect the max spec does not equal mail slot height & width. There needs to be reasonable space for safe travel. You would need to ask some NPC engineers to find out.

Obviously a much longer ship can travel through the mail slot. A T10 could be twice as long. Landing pad length being limiting factor. If realism is added there would also be fully loaded weight (mass) restrictions too. Especially with those spin-around docking pads.

Edit: An Orbital could convert a large pad into a fixed-non-rotating pad eliminating hangar size restrictions and the need to rotate. Cmdr would need to manually rotate ship. The ship would get no access to outfitting, so I'm not sure how that would work. Limiting factor is still the mail slot height.
 
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Do we know what the maximum spec for ships entering an Orbital's station mail slot is?
We do. Its 222m wide and 52m high.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/5452mp/mail_slot_dimensions_with_corvette_for_scale/

Some ideas from the first page on how you might scale up a T-9 with landing pad and mail slot dimensions.
 
that criticism isn't a circular firing squad. It has a very simple request, provide a reason that stands alone for why an even larger cargo ship is needed in the game when hauling cargo is already without balance and incredibly successful at making players rich very fast using much smaller (compared to this hypothetical panther) ships.
Except that it is... This game has many moving parts that don't move well together. Requiring (say) the economy to be fixed so that supply and demand are actually modeled and properly impacted by BGS states and then rebalancing hauling returns to some (necessarily arbitrary) Cr/hour rate is orders of magnitude more complicated than adding another freighter with more capacity. "No more new content until all the existing content is fixed" is a defensible position, but given all the existing game assets supporting the Panther XL and its relatively minimum impact on hauling returns vs. say massacre missions its a bit extreme to make adding the Panther XL contingent on a very long list of fix-this-first items (IMHO).

Pointing out game mechanics unrelated to ships is not a viable reason. Adding means to circumvent things that are bad/unwanted/poorly implemented/boring and can be adjusted to not be those things is not a good way to deal with the game. It doesn't solve the problem that you think this hypothetical solution is going to provide, it just carves out more of the "game" and leaves you with less. Until eventually you're left with some tiny little subset niche of the game to repeat over and over to the point you can't tell anyone what you are playing all the time because they look at you with concern and worry and want to know if you need help when you explain.
I'm really not sure what your getting at here. Spending an arbitrarily large amount of time acquiring a yet larger freighter to carry a wee bit more cargo (or even three times as much cargo in the case of a 2,000 Ton Cargo Panther) seems to me like a natural progression and end-game goal for Haulers. Given size of the mail slot/landing pad it represents the upper limit on what you could do in the ED universe with current game architecture.
 
Do we know what the maximum spec for ships entering an Orbital's station mail slot is? I suspect the larger ships are very close to the threshold. Certainly the automated docking assist is functioning at the hairy edge with certain ships. I would expect the max spec does not equal mail slot height & width. There needs to be reasonable space for safe travel.
Tallest Ship is the Type-10 at 39.3m
Beluga is the Longest/Widest at 209.1m x131.6m

Round up to whole meters and I'd be content to treat those numbers as the max spec. The mail slot can accommodate a larger ship, but the landing pad has less than 4m of room for length, the height is constrained by the hanger's height not the mail slot, and the the Beluga is already wider than the landing pad width...
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/59oihv/landing_pad_measurements/
 
Except that it is... This game has many moving parts that don't move well together. Requiring (say) the economy to be fixed so that supply and demand are actually modeled and properly impacted by BGS states and then rebalancing hauling returns to some (necessarily arbitrary) Cr/hour rate is orders of magnitude more complicated than adding another freighter with more capacity. "No more new content until all the existing content is fixed" is a defensible position, but given all the existing game assets supporting the Panther XL and its relatively minimum impact on hauling returns vs. say massacre missions its a bit extreme to make adding the Panther XL contingent on a very long list of fix-this-first items (IMHO).

it's only contingent on the economy being fixed if the only purpose for the panther is to haul things to interact with the economy. The only reason you or others are providing is that you want to be richer faster by doing less legs for trade. But you already dont need to be as wealthy as existing ships allow you to quickly get. There's no in-game requirement for you to need to do this repetitive action. So the only function you're getting out of the panther is to further un-balance an already unbalanced system ...which hurts the game ...while providing little if any benefit by adding an additional tier of increasingly easier ways for the wealthy to get more wealthy.

I'm not requiring that everything around ships be fixed, the users who are demanding the panther are making that argument by making their reason be solely circumventing boring repetitive game mechanics related to trading.

I'm really not sure what your getting at here. Spending an arbitrarily large amount of time acquiring a yet larger freighter to carry a wee bit more cargo (or even three times as much cargo in the case of a 2,000 Ton Cargo Panther) seems to me like a natural progression and end-game goal for Haulers. Given size of the mail slot/landing pad it represents the upper limit on what you could do in the ED universe with current game architecture.

Haulers already have that end game with the current ships. You provide nothing of value by having something "slightly larger" doing the same exact thing for the same exact results. You just provide a mechanism for rich players getting richer with less effort as they get richer. This is the opposite direction a good game mechanic should go.

Increased success should be met with increased challenge to maintain a given "difficulty". What you are describing leads to a game that gets so incredibly easy as you progress that progressing defeats the purpose of all of the game mechanics and whatever kind of gameplay available. Leading players to have to handicap themselves to have anything interesting in their game session if they bother staying. Accelerating that eventuality just leads to playerbase erosion before the player can play long enough to get interested in the things that dont involve making money.
 
I'm all for big ships ...bigger ships even than landing pads can handle. But they would not make sense in the vacuum of non-big ship gameplay that currently exists in the game. They would have to come with such gameplay. And part of that can be retro-actively handled by bringing the existing largest ships into the new big ship gameplay mechanics that would be introduced.

The details of big ship gameplay would make such additions way different than just another unnecessary tier of ship. They would have their own unique pros and cons related to how you use them in the game. It would not simply be a linear progression of bigger == easier == better.

You wouldn't even necessarily have to alter any existing game mechanics like the economy if big ship gameplay offered enough big ship mechanics of it's own to balance itself with the existing game. But you'd have to get pretty creative to make big ship gameplay fun while balancing with an existing game economy, npc, environment that is incredibly boring and bare in terms of opportunity for gameplay. Since I can imagine fdev's first inclination is to just make big ships super slow as their way of "balancing" them. And just slowing down ships or severely handicapping them and just giving you the existing game's gameplay is a super bad idea that addresses nothing a player would be interested in.
 
I haven't logged in in a while now. I'm this >< close to uninstalling due to no new ships. And the Panther is the obvious one, as it has been waved in our faces since 2012 and leaked last year as a model that has vastly changed since the original concept art.
 
The only reason you or others are providing is that you want to be richer faster by doing less legs for trade. But you already dont need to be as wealthy as existing ships allow you to quickly get. There's no in-game requirement for you to need to do this repetitive action. So the only function you're getting out of the panther is to further un-balance an already unbalanced system ...which hurts the game ...while providing little if any benefit by adding an additional tier of increasingly easier ways for the wealthy to get more wealthy.

I'm not requiring that everything around ships be fixed, the users who are demanding the panther are making that argument by making their reason be solely circumventing boring repetitive game mechanics related to trading.

Haulers already have that end game with the current ships. You provide nothing of value by having something "slightly larger" doing the same exact thing for the same exact results. You just provide a mechanism for rich players getting richer with less effort as they get richer. This is the opposite direction a good game mechanic should go.

Increased success should be met with increased challenge to maintain a given "difficulty". What you are describing leads to a game that gets so incredibly easy as you progress that progressing defeats the purpose of all of the game mechanics and whatever kind of gameplay available. Leading players to have to handicap themselves to have anything interesting in their game session if they bother staying. Accelerating that eventuality just leads to playerbase erosion before the player can play long enough to get interested in the things that dont involve making money.
Um, no I'm not looking to be richer, faster, buy doing less trade... I already have more than enough credits acquired through non-trade related activities to make credits a non-issue for the next couple of decades. What I would get out of a Panther is a reallocation of my time towards other in-game activates that I already enjoy, a little more variety in my otherwise very Cutter-heavy fleet, and the novelty of a new ship. The amount of hypothetical additional imbalance is pretty small beans by comparison.

Your last paragraph is too much slippery slope and strawman for me... There are plenty of people out there who actively enjoy space-trucking. I'm not one of them, but ED absolutely caters to that crowd as part of its overall offering. Adding some complexity (not the same thing as difficulty) to the space-trucking game-loop would be worthwhile.

If one were looking to inject some additional challenge/game-play within the context of Hauling, you could add an FSD experimental to allow using Tritium cargo to synthesize jumponium. +16/32/64 tons of Tritium for +300%/500%/700% jump range wouldn't change maximum jump ranges in the game (carrier still wins), and wouldn't do much to change small explorer ship builds as they can't really afford the cargo space. It would allow large haulers to more effectively compete with Fleet Carriers in hauling, and it would inject another cost to balance against the profitability of the hauling run. Add a requirement for the tritium boosted jump to originate from a Navigation Bouy instance and you would increase the time the hauler is subjected to interdictions without increasing the overall time it take to make the run (trading less time making hyperspace jumps for more time in supercruise). Pirates might appreciate that.

Also, anything that creates player-driven demand for commodities is a healthy step towards a more dynamic and interesting economy.
 
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Um, no I'm not looking to be richer, faster, buy doing less trade... I already have more than enough credits acquired through non-trade related activities to make credits a non-issue for the next couple of decades. What I would get out of a Panther is a reallocation of my time towards other in-game activates that I already enjoy, a little more variety in my otherwise very Cutter-heavy fleet, and the novelty of a new ship. The amount of hypothetical additional imbalance is pretty small beans by comparison.
the literal only function of the ship as it would exist as just a new ship with no other game changes is to provide a larger cargo hauling capacity to reduce how many trips are needed to transport commodities. and the way this would be 'balanced' by fdev would be making it expensive... which as we know is not a valid balance. you suggest this would be marginal in terms of imbalance but the hypothetical cargo capacity ranges from 1000 to 3000 depending on guesses thru time. that's a 30% to multiple times reduction in time to make the same amount of money trading. given how the ship is balanced to be expensive, this means only the rich will get to leverage this improved capacity and thus reduced time to gain money.


I'm not sure if you are conveniently ignoring how that works or just trying to pretend like it doesn't exist that way in the hope that it actually becomes an option you can exploit.

my view is that this ship would do more harm by further imbalancing trade unless it coincides with additional gameplay that creates a balance mechanic that doesn't allow the rich to simply get richer doing the exact same activity they were doing with lesser ships with absolutely no additional effort/skill/risk or activity. that without that additional gameplay, you guarantee that it involves less of all of those things.


Your last paragraph is too much slippery slope and strawman for me... There are plenty of people out there who actively enjoy space-trucking. I'm not one of them, but ED absolutely caters to that crowd as part of its overall offering. Adding some complexity (not the same thing as difficulty) to the space-trucking game-loop would be worthwhile.

If one were looking to inject some additional challenge/game-play within the context of Hauling, you could add an FSD experimental to allow using Tritium cargo to synthesize jumponium. +16/32/64 tons of Tritium for +300%/500%/700% jump range wouldn't change maximum jump ranges in the game (carrier still wins), and wouldn't do much to change small explorer ship builds as they can't really afford the cargo space. It would allow large haulers to more effectively compete with Fleet Carriers in hauling, and it would inject another cost to balance against the profitability of the hauling run. Add a requirement for the tritium boosted jump to originate from a Navigation Bouy instance and you would increase the time the hauler is subjected to interdictions without increasing the overall time it take to make the run (trading less time making hyperspace jumps for more time in supercruise). Pirates might appreciate that.

Also, anything that creates player-driven demand for commodities is a healthy step towards a more dynamic and interesting economy.

except you don't really create any demand for any given commodity. you just create demand for the most profitable thing at the time, which is generally limited to a handful of the same things. so the demand is the same as before the ship for the players playing the space trucker or 'i wanna be the richest ' game. this doesn't help any of that become more diverse or different at all. you get a temporary bump from a new toy but that is quickly over since you have basically infinite money to buy everything and then you are back at the status quo.

large ships need their own place in the game with their own unique gameplay. the game is too geared towards balance of small and mid sized ships because fdev apparently set things up thinking like a single player game and totally ignored how player's would circumvent their fog of war by collecting data and rendering their fake economy and assumptions of income rate impotent. then the boredom from lack of gameplay leading to rebalancing everything from income to jump distance etc has only exasperated the problem with large ships.

so much of the balance seems predicated on this obsolete assumption that wealth takes a long time to get and that the galaxy is dangerous so expensive ships are risky investments. that hasn't been true for years and in terms of risk, never. just adding a larger ship may not significantly change the status quo of the game for rich players, but that's mostly because the game is broken for them already. it does impact new players who will recognize this for what it is... which is a way for already established wealthy players to extend their gap and all the advantages that wealth gives for the game mechanics that involve other players... and basically an 'i win' option for trade.
 
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I'm not sure if you are conveniently ignoring how that works or just trying to pretend like it doesn't exist that way in the hope that it actually becomes an option you can exploit.

my view is that this ship would do more harm by further unbalancing trade unless it coincides with additional gameplay that creates a balance mechanic that doesn't allow the rich to simply get richer doing the exact same activity they were doing with lesser ships with absolutely no additional effort/skill/risk or activity. that without that additional gameplay, you guarantee that it involves less of all of those things.

large ships need their own place in the game with their own unique gameplay. the game is too geared towards balance of small and mid sized ships because fdev apparently set things up thinking like a single player game and totally ignored how player's would circumvent their fog of war by collecting data and rendering their fake economy and assumptions of income rate impotent. then the boredom from lack of gameplay leading to rebalancing everything from income to jump distance etc has only exasperated the problem with large ships.

so much of the balance seems predicated on this obsolete assumption that wealth takes a long time to get and that the galaxy is dangerous so expensive ships are risky investments. that hasn't been true for years and in terms of risk, never. just adding a larger ship may not significantly change the status quo of the game for rich players, but that's mostly because the game is broken for them already. it does impact new players who will recognize this for what it is... which is a way for already established wealthy players to extend their gap and all the advantages that wealth gives for the game mechanics that involve other players... and basically an 'i win' option for trade.
The TLDR would be that the imbalance created would be relatively minimal compared to all the other issues the game has, and would bring some tangible benefits in the form of a new ship (so diversity of options) and reduction in time spend on some specific freighting activities (which are unlikely to be rebalanced any time soon).

I agree that some game play specifically targeting large ships would be a welcome addition, but I don't think holding the Panther XL hostage to balance issues or new gameplay is the right way to go when the Panther XL is so close to being implemented as it stands (at the roughly 1,000 ton cargo capacity). In particular, I'd like a hauler that isn't obviously eclipsed by the Cutter. The Type-9 doesn't get the job done: 68 tons of additional cargo isn't enough to offset all the advantages a Cutter brings. A Panther XL at 1,000 tons would be the obvious choice for Hauling in the same way a Corvette is the obvious choice for Military action and the Anaconda is the Large-ship MRS of choice.

Corvette: Big guns an maneuverable
Anaconda: Best Possible Jump Range, good convergence, lots of internals - a real Multi-role option
Cutter: Best Straight line acceleration and huge shields with a good hardpoint selection balanced by weird convergence and abysmal maneuvering.

The Cutter wins on hauling by default, not because is particular designed for it. Adding the Panther XL with a ridiculous hauling capacity wouldn't infringe on any of the advantages the big three present. We'd end up with the big four - each with their own defined specialties.
 
I would prefer it if they spent more time developing competing ships.

Like small, medium and Large Trading ships for all three factions.

As all that will happen is everyone will just get that one ship and nothing. Becoming one fat boring waste of time as everyone will have it and that is all you will ever see in wings.

Some people may go imperial line for their faction, other may prefer the Federal Traders each ship with their pros and cons. Federal ships carry more but they are cheaper and weaker and mass produced, where as Imperial ships carry less but are tougher and more elegant as they fly.

Seriously having one big ship will mean everyone will have and it will be boring.

I forgot, that one blue yay!! That one is red yay!! Oh look at the green one, yay!!

If you want to bring in the Clipper, bring in some competition too.
 
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I did some numbers and Panther Clipper won't be above 1500 cargo or it wouldn't even be able to use thrusters
 
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I did some numbers and Panther Clipper won't be above 1000 cargo or it wouldn't even be able to use thrusters
How so ? Class 8A thrusters have a max mass of 5040t, even size 7 still have 3240t, I see no problem with 1000t cargo, unless the ship itself is 2300t or more.
 
How so ? Class 8A thrusters have a max mass of 5040t, even size 7 still have 3240t, I see no problem with 1000t cargo, unless the ship itself is 2300t or more.

yeah I did my math wrong. I was trying to see what its stock modules would be.

These are my assumptions for its stock settings:
  • Core internals
    • Powerplant Class 8E
    • Thrusters Class 8E (This is gonna need be A-rated to carry cargo to settlements)
    • FSD Class 8E
    • Life Support 5E
    • Power Distributor 6E
    • Sensor 5E
    • Fuel Tank 128t
  • Optional internals
    • 6 class 8 slots
    • 1 class 1 slot
  • Hardpoints is 6 mediums
  • Utilities is 8

Hull without anything is 1800t (I guessed this number)
its going to be around 2478t without optionals, weapons or utilities (math included a full fuel tank of 128t)
its stock jump range without any optionals is going to be 7.01ly
used this roguey.co.uk to get class 8 fsd numbers and used the formula on Elite dangerous wiki to calculate the max jumprange
 
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Ah, you are of course right, ships come with stock E, so the limit would be 3360t total with an 8E thruster. Sadly I only have the ingame stats of the 8D and 8C FSD, haven't seen an E yet.
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I think most of us who want the Panther will be using it to load/unload a Carrier, not to do trade runs with. Given the likely cost, prospective owners would be heading into the "post-credits" stage of the game anyhow, with nothing else except a Carrier to get.

IIRC, the big money for traders is usually in stacking trade missions, rather than bulk commodity hauling. Once you have a ship big enough to grab the best missions, you reach a point of diminishing returns.

The effect on the BGS would be minimal, due to the taper factor. Doubling your cargo capacity doesn't double your INF.

I'd be OK with access being locked by something, so it isn't just a cash-only straight upgrade to the T9.
 
Here's a thought: why not make it heavy enough to be barely within the mass limit of 8E thrusters, but give it a 7E FSD (in a size 8 slot)? There is precedent for this, the T10 comes with a 6E FSD in a size 7 slot.

So you can have a Panther. But even though it will be fine for loading/unloading a Carrier, it won't be much use for interstellar trade runs due to its pathetic jump range. Owners would have to fit a Guardian FSD booster while searching for a size 8 FSD from somewhere. Make these difficult to get.
 
Here's a thought: why not make it heavy enough to be barely within the mass limit of 8E thrusters, but give it a 7E FSD (in a size 8 slot)? There is precedent for this, the T10 comes with a 6E FSD in a size 7 slot.

So you can have a Panther. But even though it will be fine for loading/unloading a Carrier, it won't be much use for interstellar trade runs due to its pathetic jump range. Owners would have to fit a Guardian FSD booster while searching for a size 8 FSD from somewhere. Make these difficult to get.
The size 8 FSDs are already hard to get. I've only ever found 8C and 8D myself. Any ship that comes with downsized components stock though is one where the original slot size was later buffed.
 
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