Fine with, cause it is a single player game, and no one else's experience as a player is impacted by it. Should ask your friend how he feels about straw man arguments also.
Penalties for ganking on public server high security should be a lot higher, and greater.
- Thread starter CMDR MunChooChrr
- Start date
Ok, well I'll make the usual proposals for changes to C&P again (beating that dead horse perhaps):
So in high sec:
- Trader will get 'escorted' in SC by local cops as long as he keeps to the shipping lane, so if interdicted (by cmdr or NPC), they will jump in immediately (outside shipping lanes, timer will increase)
- Trader, if destroyed in shipping lane, gets compensation by local authorities for damage caused, including cargo (price paid), so loses nothing
- all ships get scanned on entry into system by zealous local cops: any with bounties get interdicted immediately, any with notoriety get interdicted immediately by FTR, and then continuously interdicted if they run to SC (a pirate with a bounty but no notoriety would have to run from the cops and escape to SC, but could still stay in system)
- players with notoriety caused by crimes in open mode would have to stay in open to time it down (and not on the landing pad)
- get rid of bounty limit on players (which was introduced to stop exploiting, but there are better ways to get money now).
Lower sec systems:
- progressive weakening of above C&P measures until anarchy, where anything goes.
I'm not proposing any draconian measures against gankers in general, space is dangerous and someone has to provide that.
I'm also not saying it would suddenly get everyone into open, far from it.
Happy to have it shot to pieces, as maybe there are collateral effects I haven't dreamt of
I don't think any of that's a bad idea for high-security systems in the context of the "P" bit of C&P itself - though I wouldn't expect it to affect these sort of threads very much either way - but the interaction with the rest of the game would be interesting so I don't think it could be done well without reforming a lot of other PvE aspects of the security state too.Happy to have it shot to pieces, as maybe there are collateral effects I haven't dreamt of
There'd be an interesting strategy, given that you move to the interdictor's location on completion of interdiction, to ensuring that traders ended up outside the lane at the start even if they were in it to start with ... and conversely, some strategy to timing submission on the trader's part to stay within it. Wide-angle interdiction would probably be very useful for the attacker. Keeping very clear transparency over whether you were in the shipping lane at any time would be important.
Would be incredibly inconvenient for both "accidental" and deliberate PvE criminals, especially around big multi-system factions, which would probably cause over-stabilisation of BGS in High Sec systems ... and worsen the anti-Anarchy effects of the current setup further. There'd need to be some really big bonuses for successfully carrying out PvE crimes in those systems to compensate.
At least on paper the reduction of PvE danger for lawful commanders from mission opponents (high sec already has little enough ambient NPC piracy) should mean those systems had more average trade prices to compensate, which would interact oddly with the mainly state-based pricing structures. Perhaps there'd also be an argument for including more security-related effects e.g. high sec systems don't have RES? It'd need to be part of a general reform to encourage ambitious lawful players to spend lots of time in low-sec and ambitious criminals lots of time in high-sec, with conservative ones the other way round.
Then you should stop playing if that's the line you won't cross, because since this is a multiplayer game where every action affects the wider galaxy, chances are things that you do impact other players without even realising it.
But hey, you're having fun so who cares about them?
Everyone has the same tools: Open, Mobius, Private Group, Solo, Blocking. Encountering and interacting with other players is not mandatory to be able to affect this galaxy.
Besides, ganking affects the security state of the system negatively and thus can even hurt the faction you desire to support.
That's not the the point. Do you check that there's not a player group trying to do something in a system before you do anything? No of course not, but you could end up running counter to their interests. How effective is irrelevant, you're still impacting those players.
You could say it doesn't matter because it's not affecting them that much, but I doubt they'd see it that way. With the current earning rates we have any ganker could also say that ganking doesn't affect your credit balance much as well.
It might also be that you want security to drop- civil unrest comes with improvised composite HGEs and pirate activity signal sources. Or maybe you don't want to support the controlling faction.
Elite Dangerous is designed around the fact that other players are an optional extra and the mode choices and options concerning contacts confirms that.
Your effects on the playground is indirect pvp and cannot be avoided. Ganking and other direct pvp confrontations can be avoided as intended in the very design of the game by mode choice and blocking.
Direct pvp is what is loathed by casuals and new players due to gankers and griefers.
Your effects on the playground is indirect pvp and cannot be avoided. Ganking and other direct pvp confrontations can be avoided as intended in the very design of the game by mode choice and blocking.
Direct pvp is what is loathed by casuals and new players due to gankers and griefers.
Gasp. Do gankers ever check that they're not doing anything counter to other players' interests?
There's no ganking on Elite Dangerous... ships just go kaboom.
Yes, I agree, but NPCs can still stray from tshipping lanes and the local police would progressively slow down the further you stray out into open space, so PVE piracy could actually be made just as easy as now (it’s not worth much atm). Also murder would not be impossible as long as you seek out signal sources away from the guarded shipping lanes.
Does high sec already have little piracy? I seem to remember a lot of interdictions last time I stacked missions, but it was a while ago. But yeah, extra safety from pirates should mean more ‘standard’ profits.
Personally I would leave the RES, but reduce the occurrence of pirates: it doesn’t make much sense that in a high sec system, and it would balance one of the main positive BGS levers.
Not sure why you say this: a lawful risk averse trader would be more encouraged to plan routes through high sec systems, while a more adventurous trader might try for higher profits in lower sec(assuming the BGS adjusted prices based on security) while bounty hunters would probably have to venture into more dangerous areas yes. An ambitious criminal could still find destracted cmdrs that stray from the shipping lanes in high sec, plus of course lower sec systems.
thanks for your feedback.
Security doesn't make a big difference to mission interdictions (I feel they are slightly more likely in low- than medium- but if you've got a full stack you won't notice) but it does make a big difference to the frequency, rank and ship size of non-mission pirates.
Hello! I'm a ganker and I'll take a moment to address some of your points.
I litterally have bounties in the billions on several ships, I'm never going to bother paying them off.
Why should I? The punishment only relates to PvE mission/station access and that doesn't concern me at all.
You can't apply a punishment on me that would only apply to you. It just ends up being irrelevant.
I'm not a griefer but I know their playstyles. If this truly was implemented, I'm sorry to say but the game mechanics are not solid enough to prevent griefing. The consequences you suggest would affect innocent CMDR's that have been flagged wanted with a bounty on them by griefers.
Nevermind that PvE'ers make illegal actions constantly, by intent or mistake that doesn't matter. Fact is it happens. Mission boards for both Horizon and Odyssey are FILLED with illegal activities.
Can you really not see the potential disaster in the making here?
Lastly, this would scare massive proportions of the community away and I guarantee you that not only gankers would turn to griefing in protest, making Open Play unplayable and game reviews would tank. Horribly business decision overall, never going to happen.
You can just shoot every suspect and call it case closed, you need to find the bad guy. Get my drift?
Overall game design philosophy is tied to player progression. Losing progression sucks and will in most cases cause the client to quit. Gamers don't want that. Publishers/Investors or even developers for that matter, don't want that (unless they are specifically creating a hardcore challenge game with permadeath).
PvP in Open Mode can, is and will at some point introduce you to PvP without consent. Out of curiosity... why'd you think it would not?
Listen, if you remove gankers from the game you'll also end up removing all players that exist because of gankers
- Bounty Hunters
- Player Driven ATR (Police/Military)
- Players in Squadrons that actively protect their non-combat members
- Pirates
Yes pirates too, because no one will comply with your commands if the pirates aren't allowed to pose a threat.
That's quite a big portion and think about what you're left with? Essentially what Mobious PvE is right now. So why waste developer resources on something that is already available?
Your whole low effort rant is basically asking to unrealistically punish several playstyles which will make a lot of players quit the game. You completely took the wrong approach here.
Hypothetically, presume that you had started the topic differently like in the example below
Topic: I got ganked!
Text: "Hey guys, so I just poked my head into Open Mode and got ganked. It all happened so fast and I'm not gonna lie, I'm pretty upset and my ego is bruised.
I don't want it to happen again so I turn to you, esteemed forum PvP'ers and basement dwelling neckbeards. Can you teach me or give pointers as to how I can protect myself from ganks and/or how to escape them? Share your wisdom!"
The tone in this thread would have been so different. Instead of becoming more frustrated, you would have become smarter.
If you're willing, come fly with me. I'll teach you everything about ganking and how to avoid it in Open Mode. Provided you take back all the garbage you said about us in this thread Happy Halloween <3
We don't care about bounties, notoriety or anything related to crime and punishment.
I litterally have bounties in the billions on several ships, I'm never going to bother paying them off.
Why should I? The punishment only relates to PvE mission/station access and that doesn't concern me at all.
You can't apply a punishment on me that would only apply to you. It just ends up being irrelevant.
I'm not a griefer but I know their playstyles. If this truly was implemented, I'm sorry to say but the game mechanics are not solid enough to prevent griefing. The consequences you suggest would affect innocent CMDR's that have been flagged wanted with a bounty on them by griefers.
Nevermind that PvE'ers make illegal actions constantly, by intent or mistake that doesn't matter. Fact is it happens. Mission boards for both Horizon and Odyssey are FILLED with illegal activities.
Can you really not see the potential disaster in the making here?
Lastly, this would scare massive proportions of the community away and I guarantee you that not only gankers would turn to griefing in protest, making Open Play unplayable and game reviews would tank. Horribly business decision overall, never going to happen.
You can just shoot every suspect and call it case closed, you need to find the bad guy. Get my drift?
Ganking has been around since day of open world MMO's and Elite is actually one of the games that attempts to inflict the highest levels on punishment for such playstyles overall.
Overall game design philosophy is tied to player progression. Losing progression sucks and will in most cases cause the client to quit. Gamers don't want that. Publishers/Investors or even developers for that matter, don't want that (unless they are specifically creating a hardcore challenge game with permadeath).
That is beyond silly. Kinda funny... like twitter psychology. Is that what we should call the Grand Theft Auto community then?
PvP in Open Mode can, is and will at some point introduce you to PvP without consent. Out of curiosity... why'd you think it would not?
I think... I'll let FDEV speak for themselves on this one but personally I think you're just lashing out.
Listen, if you remove gankers from the game you'll also end up removing all players that exist because of gankers
- Bounty Hunters
- Player Driven ATR (Police/Military)
- Players in Squadrons that actively protect their non-combat members
- Pirates
Yes pirates too, because no one will comply with your commands if the pirates aren't allowed to pose a threat.
That's quite a big portion and think about what you're left with? Essentially what Mobious PvE is right now. So why waste developer resources on something that is already available?
Your whole low effort rant is basically asking to unrealistically punish several playstyles which will make a lot of players quit the game. You completely took the wrong approach here.
Hypothetically, presume that you had started the topic differently like in the example below
Topic: I got ganked!
Text: "Hey guys, so I just poked my head into Open Mode and got ganked. It all happened so fast and I'm not gonna lie, I'm pretty upset and my ego is bruised.
I don't want it to happen again so I turn to you, esteemed forum PvP'ers and basement dwelling neckbeards. Can you teach me or give pointers as to how I can protect myself from ganks and/or how to escape them? Share your wisdom!"
The tone in this thread would have been so different. Instead of becoming more frustrated, you would have become smarter.
If you're willing, come fly with me. I'll teach you everything about ganking and how to avoid it in Open Mode. Provided you take back all the garbage you said about us in this thread
Happy Halloween <3Honestly, I think ganking is a symptom of a larger problem; the fact that being a criminal basically doesn't exist as a playstyle in Elite dangerous.
Think about it; smuggling is dead. Piracy is dead. Illegal Assassination and Massacre missions are more trouble than they are worth, so no one does them.
Crime sits in a strange zone where it is simultaneously too annoying and unrewarding to do for people who want to enjoy it for its own sake, but nowhere near punishing enough for those who have external motivations.
It's a lot like ax combat, if you think about it. For ages, it paid basically nothing; the amount of time it took compared to the amount of money you made minus the amount you ended up spending on repairs, materials, travel time, practice time, Etc basically was a net negative for most players.
And yet, a significant group of players continued to do it regardless, just because they loved it so much. That Core group of players is similar in terms of motivation to the Core group of gankers. Both of them are going to continue to do what they love doing regardless of credits. But I don't think anyone is going to argue that the recent improvements to rewards for anti-xeno combat were a bad thing. It took a previously Niche activity and opened it up to a much wider audience.
That's what I would like to see happen to ganking . Not banning activities outright, but redirecting these truly passionate people into directions that are more open and accessible for a wider audience.
Better rewards for piracy, tied together with higher risk. Higher risk and reward for notoriety. Deeper and more authentic territory for pirates and criminals. Lore explaining their place in the Canon.
Do all that, and being attacked by another player doesn't drag you out of the elite Universe; it drags you deeper into it.
Think about it; smuggling is dead. Piracy is dead. Illegal Assassination and Massacre missions are more trouble than they are worth, so no one does them.
Crime sits in a strange zone where it is simultaneously too annoying and unrewarding to do for people who want to enjoy it for its own sake, but nowhere near punishing enough for those who have external motivations.
It's a lot like ax combat, if you think about it. For ages, it paid basically nothing; the amount of time it took compared to the amount of money you made minus the amount you ended up spending on repairs, materials, travel time, practice time, Etc basically was a net negative for most players.
And yet, a significant group of players continued to do it regardless, just because they loved it so much. That Core group of players is similar in terms of motivation to the Core group of gankers. Both of them are going to continue to do what they love doing regardless of credits. But I don't think anyone is going to argue that the recent improvements to rewards for anti-xeno combat were a bad thing. It took a previously Niche activity and opened it up to a much wider audience.
That's what I would like to see happen to ganking . Not banning activities outright, but redirecting these truly passionate people into directions that are more open and accessible for a wider audience.
Better rewards for piracy, tied together with higher risk. Higher risk and reward for notoriety. Deeper and more authentic territory for pirates and criminals. Lore explaining their place in the Canon.
Do all that, and being attacked by another player doesn't drag you out of the elite Universe; it drags you deeper into it.
Relative to other activities?I've found my life of crime to be very profitable
I've done a fair amount in my time, and at no point has it been anywhere close to matching the predominant money making activities of the time.
Even worse, at no point has it felt like a well-integrated aspect of the universe. I want to feel like Jack Sparrow sailing into Tortuga, instead I get about as much immersion as a lawn care specialist wiping out a patch of dandelions, and roughly as much fear of reprisal for my actions.
Oh yes its very profitable.
R e l a t i v e t o o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s?
Could you please explain when? Because even in the best possible time, during the LTD craze, it still was not anywhere near possible to make as much money using piracy as it was via mining.