Penalties for ganking on public server high security should be a lot higher, and greater.

[Herlev]

Honestly, I think ganking is a symptom of a larger problem; the fact that being a criminal basically doesn't exist as a playstyle in Elite dangerous.

If you want to redirect any type of PvP, all you have to do is offer a reward for PvP elsewhere while a community goal or AX event is taking place. It wont get rid of all of us, but certain a large chunk. Still, PvP community goals would go a long way.

But it doesn't address the issue of gankers like myself, as it would have to be some hella huge carrot at the end of the stick to make me want to change my gameplay. I love unrestricted, unfair, organic PvP in Open without any silly rules. If I wanted 1v1 tryharding, I would sit in San Tu 24/7 with a ruler and measuring tape next to my PP.

Listen carefully and take this from the perspective of a ganker. The problem isn't just the philosophy behind the crime, notoriety and punishment system. The main problem is the execution of the system.

- General System Authority NPC's are a non-engineered joke.
- ATR is a threat but it takes way too long for them to arrive, finish their roleplay and actually engage a target. Much less actually attack the correct target. If only you knew how many times I've lured the ATR into killing the wrong target.
- ATR appears to be random, I've seen them show up after 3 ganks, 20 ganks and sometimes they don't show up at all which = unlimited/unrestricted ganking!

Ask yourself, do you really think that it's PvP'ers or gankers that end up on Detention Ships most of the time? Because it's not. It's your new, average and even Elite CMDR who make a single mistake during a illegal mission or get griefed into "Wanted" status.
I mean, I gank all the time and I have "Report crimes against me" turned ON. So can you guess what happens if someone shoots at me first? Working as intended?

So... if the system ends up targeting the wrong audience, it means the system doesn't work. Which by the way, we told FDEV when they implemented it and the whole community told us that we were just crimebabies trying to avoid punishment and that the days of gankers were over, we would loose our engineered ships and waste time in detention facilities whilst being excluded from minor faction missions. It's like taking away apple juice from a kid that never liked it to begin, great logic.

I believe that feedback from all corners of the community is important, rather than only that of solo mode explorers that spam reddit with neutron star screenshots. But those are the loudest and most active on social platforms with direct pipelines to the CM's. I'd love nothing more than see CM's step out of the kitty pool and dip their toes in the shark tank but... well... Bruce, Stephen...one day perhaps, I have such high hopes for you!
I also believe that a official tutorial on how to avoid and deal with ganking would be a much better solution. The game gives you the tools, but the vast majority of players don't know how to use them. But they certainly know how to combat log or process kill the game no matter how new they are to the game.

Do you now see that the problem lies elsewhere?

So to prove a point...

Ya'll having fun taking taxies from detention ships, wasting time and paying bills because a system designed to deal with gankers applies to you instead? <3

 

[Gleitfrosch]

Lock criminals out of stations in civilized system and allow them to land only on anarchy stations. Also make then kill on sight if they try to land at stations other than anarchy.

It should not be possible to murder in one system and walk into a bar in another system, like nothing happened. Especially if both systems are controlled by the same superpower.

You want to be a criminal? That's OK, but you also will be treated like one.

 

[DemiserofD]

If you want to redirect any type of PvP, all you have to do is offer a reward for PvP elsewhere while a community goal or AX event is taking place. It wont get rid of all of us, but certain a large chunk. Still, PvP community goals would go a long way.

But it doesn't address the issue of gankers like myself, as it would have to be some hella huge carrot at the end of the stick to make me want to change my gameplay. I love unrestricted, unfair, organic PvP in Open without any silly rules. If I wanted 1v1 tryharding, I would sit in San Tu 24/7 with a ruler and measuring tape next to my PP.

Listen carefully and take this from the perspective of a ganker. The problem isn't just the philosophy behind the crime, notoriety and punishment system. The main problem is the execution of the system.

- General System Authority NPC's are a non-engineered joke.
- ATR is a threat but it takes way too long for them to arrive, finish their roleplay and actually engage a target. Much less actually attack the correct target. If only you knew how many times I've lured the ATR into killing the wrong target.
- ATR appears to be random, I've seen them show up after 3 ganks, 20 ganks and sometimes they don't show up at all which = unlimited/unrestricted ganking!

Ask yourself, do you really think that it's PvP'ers or gankers that end up on Detention Ships most of the time? Because it's not. It's your new, average and even Elite CMDR who make a single mistake during a illegal mission or get griefed into "Wanted" status.
I mean, I gank all the time and I have "Report crimes against me" turned ON. So can you guess what happens if someone shoots at me first? Working as intended?

So... if the system ends up targeting the wrong audience, it means the system doesn't work. Which by the way, we told FDEV when they implemented it and the whole community told us that we were just crimebabies trying to avoid punishment and that the days of gankers were over, we would loose our engineered ships and waste time in detention facilities whilst being excluded from minor faction missions. It's like taking away apple juice from a kid that never liked it to begin, great logic.

I believe that feedback from all corners of the community is important, rather than only that of solo mode explorers that spam reddit with neutron star screenshots. But those are the loudest and most active on social platforms with direct pipelines to the CM's. I'd love nothing more than see CM's step out of the kitty pool and dip their toes in the shark tank but... well... Bruce, Stephen...one day perhaps, I have such high hopes for you!
I also believe that a official tutorial on how to avoid and deal with ganking would be a much better solution. The game gives you the tools, but the vast majority of players don't know how to use them. But they certainly know how to combat log or process kill the game no matter how new they are to the game.

Do you now see that the problem lies elsewhere?

So to prove a point...

Ya'll having fun taking taxies from detention ships, wasting time and paying bills because a system designed to deal with gankers applies to you instead? <3

This is - broadly - what I'm talking about, honestly.

The current punishment system, as you point out, is far too punishing for accidental criminals, while having very little in the way of consequences for career criminals. Make one mistake and an inexperienced player gets liquified by a station or at least needs to run away and dope around for 2 hours until their notoriety fades. A career criminal knows how to avoid these things and so never need to deal with them at all.

A more well-integrated crime system would account for this. Accidentally hitting a cop, for example, would give you a penalty to your reputation with the local faction and a fine, NOT a bounty immediately. The nice thing about reputation is, it doesn't just reset in 20 hours, like Notoriety; you need to work to reset it. So someone who regularly breaks the law will face long-term consequences that take equal effort to correct, while an accidental criminal will face consequences directly in proportion to their act, which most of the time they'll wipe away completely by accident, just how they got it in the first place.

But at the same time, there need to be better criminal options available. If most criminals hung out in archon delaine space, that'd be awesome from both a gameplay and roleplay perspective.

 

[St0rmFury]

Tbh, I think a lot of grief would be resolved if insurance covers cargo & carto as well.

 

[Gleitfrosch]

Tbh, I think a lot of grief would be resolved if insurance covers cargo & carto as well.

But only in case of ganking.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Could you please explain when? Because even in the best possible time, during the LTD craze, it still was not anywhere near possible to make as much money using piracy as it was via mining.

A FC is required, with Secure Storage, and preferably a Cutter or T-9 (I use a Cutter, 728t cargo space)

The rest, as they say, will happen naturally... 100% profit, bar pennies for fuel, is always good, as is selling to any market.

 

[Rubbernuke]

If the BGS and system gov types actually worked together (and C+P had minor tweaks) you'd slowly make lawbreakers drift to anarchy systems (or away from Inp/ Fed Alliance) and to indie systems.At the same time criminal gameplay needs to be actual gameplay too so both sides act to tempt people.

But saying that, players also have to fly responsibly, as no C+P system will prevent ganking on its own.

I can't be bothered to write out the (at this point hundreds of pages) of ideas.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

It should not be possible to murder in one system and walk into a bar in another system, like nothing happened. Especially if both systems are controlled by the same superpower.

You want to be a criminal? That's OK, but you also will be treated like one.

Every single faction in the game offers missions to kill - illegally, from the other faction's point of view - members of other factions in the game. So if you walk into a bar in another system, no, it won't be as if nothing happened. Specifically, they'll give you 250,000 credits and 3 Digital Designs for your murderous ways [1].

Frontline Solutions operates openly in almost every inhabited system, for the purpose of hiring mercenaries for both sides of every conflict and sticking them into pointless fatal meatgrinders. After all, they get their commission whichever side wins.

You don't want to be a criminal by 21st century standards of morality? Go out exploring and never come back, it's the only way. No-one in even minor positions of power in the 34th century places enough value on human life to seriously outlaw murder - not like serious crimes like loitering, which impedes the flow of commerce and profit - when it's such a useful tool for their own side.



[1] There are already plenty of complaints that the existing C&P system is far too harsh on this sort of crime-for-hire. They're probably right in practice, too.

 

[Sellias]

If the BGS and system gov types actually worked together (and C+P had minor tweaks) you'd slowly make lawbreakers drift to anarchy systems (or away from Inp/ Fed Alliance) and to indie systems.At the same time criminal gameplay needs to be actual gameplay too so both sides act to tempt people.

But saying that, players also have to fly responsibly, as no C+P system will prevent ganking on its own.

I can't be bothered to write out the (at this point hundreds of pages) of ideas.

This is my preference as well,
Danger being presented by sys sec and bgs states. This then could also be tied to high risk high reward missions on the boards.

Also imagine the wars this might produce when outlaw players try to spread anarchy to a neighbouring lawful system or the other way around

But in order to make high sec systems way more safe, would require a NPC overhaul so that they present an actual threat.

One thing that might help is having the cops in high sec systems do more patrolling. Especially against players that are notorious/have committed crimes in other systems.

Basically the system security forced saying:

"You might be clean in our system, but we know you still might cause trouble here. So we are going to stick close to you and watch you with hawke eyes"

 

[Gleitfrosch]

Every single faction in the game offers missions to kill - illegally, from the other faction's point of view - members of other factions in the game. So if you walk into a bar in another system, no, it won't be as if nothing happened. Specifically, they'll give you 250,000 credits and 3 Digital Designs for your murderous ways [1].

Frontline Solutions operates openly in almost every inhabited system, for the purpose of hiring mercenaries for both sides of every conflict and sticking them into pointless fatal meatgrinders. After all, they get their commission whichever side wins.

You don't want to be a criminal by 21st century standards of morality? Go out exploring and never come back, it's the only way. No-one in even minor positions of power in the 34th century places enough value on human life to seriously outlaw murder - not like serious crimes like loitering, which impedes the flow of commerce and profit - when it's such a useful tool for their own side.



[1] There are already plenty of complaints that the existing C&P system is far too harsh on this sort

Every single faction in the game offers missions to kill - illegally, from the other faction's point of view - members of other factions in the game. So if you walk into a bar in another system, no, it won't be as if nothing happened. Specifically, they'll give you 250,000 credits and 3 Digital Designs for your murderous ways [1].

Frontline Solutions operates openly in almost every inhabited system, for the purpose of hiring mercenaries for both sides of every conflict and sticking them into pointless fatal meatgrinders. After all, they get their commission whichever side wins.

You don't want to be a criminal by 21st century standards of morality? Go out exploring and never come back, it's the only way. No-one in even minor positions of power in the 34th century places enough value on human life to seriously outlaw murder - not like serious crimes like loitering, which impedes the flow of commerce and profit - when it's such a useful tool for their own side.



[1] There are already plenty of complaints that the existing C&P system is far too harsh on this sort of crime-for-hire. They're probably right in practice, too.

You are arguing with pve gameplay. This discussion is about pvp.
This is a game, created to entertain players. Currently a small(?) Group of players is destroying the fun for others without almost any consequences.

Telling "then go exploring" or arguments like "play solo" mean nothing else than telling people to limit their experience because of some psychos who enjoy to kill the fun of others. And yes, most are psychos because they kill players for the sake of killing.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

If you want to redirect any type of PvP, all you have to do is offer a reward for PvP elsewhere while a community goal or AX event is taking place. It wont get rid of all of us, but certain a large chunk. Still, PvP community goals would go a long way.

But it doesn't address the issue of gankers like myself, as it would have to be some hella huge carrot at the end of the stick to make me want to change my gameplay. I love unrestricted, unfair, organic PvP in Open without any silly rules. If I wanted 1v1 tryharding, I would sit in San Tu 24/7 with a ruler and measuring tape next to my PP.

Listen carefully and take this from the perspective of a ganker. The problem isn't just the philosophy behind the crime, notoriety and punishment system. The main problem is the execution of the system.

- General System Authority NPC's are a non-engineered joke.
- ATR is a threat but it takes way too long for them to arrive, finish their roleplay and actually engage a target. Much less actually attack the correct target. If only you knew how many times I've lured the ATR into killing the wrong target.
- ATR appears to be random, I've seen them show up after 3 ganks, 20 ganks and sometimes they don't show up at all which = unlimited/unrestricted ganking!

Ask yourself, do you really think that it's PvP'ers or gankers that end up on Detention Ships most of the time? Because it's not. It's your new, average and even Elite CMDR who make a single mistake during a illegal mission or get griefed into "Wanted" status.
I mean, I gank all the time and I have "Report crimes against me" turned ON. So can you guess what happens if someone shoots at me first? Working as intended?

So... if the system ends up targeting the wrong audience, it means the system doesn't work. Which by the way, we told FDEV when they implemented it and the whole community told us that we were just crimebabies trying to avoid punishment and that the days of gankers were over, we would loose our engineered ships and waste time in detention facilities whilst being excluded from minor faction missions. It's like taking away apple juice from a kid that never liked it to begin, great logic.

I believe that feedback from all corners of the community is important, rather than only that of solo mode explorers that spam reddit with neutron star screenshots. But those are the loudest and most active on social platforms with direct pipelines to the CM's. I'd love nothing more than see CM's step out of the kitty pool and dip their toes in the shark tank but... well... Bruce, Stephen...one day perhaps, I have such high hopes for you!
I also believe that a official tutorial on how to avoid and deal with ganking would be a much better solution. The game gives you the tools, but the vast majority of players don't know how to use them. But they certainly know how to combat log or process kill the game no matter how new they are to the game.

Do you now see that the problem lies elsewhere?

So to prove a point...

Ya'll having fun taking taxies from detention ships, wasting time and paying bills because a system designed to deal with gankers applies to you instead? <3

Yep, I have ended up in a detention center several times just because I didn’t stop immediately for the scan at a settlement.
But regarding security: from a ganker point of view: what if ATR showed up immediately after you get notoriety 2, and as notoriety progresses the number of ATR scaled up? If you were getting almost continuously interdicted near the main star or along shipping lanes you would effectively be forced into deeper space or an anarchy system until your notoriety winds down.
If you were also forced to wind it down in open (for crimes committed in open) and weren’t allowed to just sit on the pad, you would also have to escape from bounty hunters, at least in theory.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You are arguing with pve gameplay. This discussion is about pvp.
This is a game, created to entertain players. Currently a small(?) Group of players is destroying the fun for others without almost any consequences.

Telling "then go exploring" or arguments like "play solo" mean nothing else than telling people to limit their experience because of some psychos who enjoy to kill the fun of others. And yes, most are psychos because they kill players for the sake of killing.

The player has to assume hostile intent in a mode that allows hostility, and that the C+P demands a kill to trigger it (i.e. its a reactive system).

The thing is that sec never has parity with players- until that happens players can gank on one side of the map and fly back to an indie port / and or FC in the same system (to a point ).

The big problem in C+P as it stands is predictability- everything runs on timers and resets. ATR reset (except around FCs) when they should be far more random because ATR are really taking away a shield in a shield dominating game.

 

[Jmanis]

You are arguing with pve gameplay. This discussion is about pvp.
This is a game, created to entertain players. Currently a small(?) Group of players is destroying the fun for others without almost any consequences.

Preventing other players affecting your play environment in undesirable ways is PvE. Got it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Yep, I have ended up in a detention center several times just because I didn’t stop immediately for the scan at a settlement.
But regarding security: from a ganker point of view: what if ATR showed up immediately after you get notoriety 2, and as notoriety progresses the number of ATR scaled up? If you were getting almost continuously interdicted near the main star or along shipping lanes you would effectively be forced into deeper space or an anarchy system until your notoriety winds down.
If you were also forced to wind it down in open (for crimes committed in open) and weren’t allowed to just sit on the pad, you would also have to escape from bounty hunters, at least in theory.

A gank will succeed anyway if the 'victim' still flies predictably and in a weak ship (i.e. you have to be able to survive 30 seconds minimum). Its the mindset that they can fly anywhere in anything at anytime that needs to change.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

A gank will succeed anyway if the 'victim' still flies predictably and in a weak ship (i.e. you have to be able to survive 30 seconds minimum). Its the mindset that they can fly anywhere in anything at anytime that needs to change.

A gank will still succeed yes, but hopefully only one (or two) until the ATR start to kick in. But that is necessary to avoid ‘innocent’ cmdrs getting hounded by the ATR after being tricked into killing.

edit: the problem I have with the current system is that you can hang around a main star all day while killing all the time.

 

[Rubbernuke]

A gank will still succeed yes, but hopefully only one (or two) until the ATR start to kick in. But that is necessary to avoid ‘innocent’ cmdrs getting hounded by the ATR after being tricked into killing.

edit: the problem I have with the current system is that you can hang around a main star all day while killing all the time.

It does not matter- there is only one situation where ATR come instantly and you can avoid that clause easily, and that if you build a ship thats a hull tank with a sacrificial shield generator you are almost immune for that gank.

If you cant survive 30 seconds no C+P will save you.

People hate this video but its true:

[REDACTED: Non-compliant with forum rules]

 

[Rubbernuke]

I mean, as a start you need something like this:

At notoriety 10, each full NPC / player scan spawns an ATR vessel

A half though out idea, but: If a player is at notoriety 10, they have to be very careful about being scanned by random ships, security or other players as if they are, an ATR security vessel drops in to hassle them. The handwavium being that a scan is like a sighting of you thats disseminated...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Some C + P suggestions, tweaks and ideas (part 2)

Some ideas: Security response times are based on the attack position in that system. So, security response in close proximity to stations, traffic corridors etc are much quicker (and practically instantaneous in high sec close to traffic lanes) than in deep space. This logically simulates how...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[CaptainPugwash]

It does not matter- there is only one situation where ATR come instantly and you can avoid that clause easily, and that if you build a ship thats a hull tank with a sacrificial shield generator you are almost immune for that gank.

If you cant survive 30 seconds no C+P will save you.

People hate this video but its true:

[REDACTED: Non-compliant with forum rules]

I agree, really I do understand how people can avoid ATR, But that wasn’t the main point I was making, which is to do with the frequency of scan and interdictions by the security forces around the main star and in shipping lanes. A ganker can’t gank if they are themselves being interdicted by the ATR most of the time. As a ganker it would get pretty tiresome and you would move on, right?

 

[Felix DiCestria]

Lock criminals out of stations in civilized system and allow them to land only on anarchy stations. Also make then kill on sight if they try to land at stations other than anarchy.

It should not be possible to murder in one system and walk into a bar in another system, like nothing happened. Especially if both systems are controlled by the same superpower.

You want to be a criminal? That's OK, but you also will be treated like one.

Who do you think owns the carriers in Deciat?
AFAIK the only effective deterent to ganking is reduced framerate and perhaps the gankers own lack of motivation.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I agree, really I do understand how people can avoid ATR, But that wasn’t the main point I was making, which is to do with the frequency of scan and interdictions by the security forces around the main star and in shipping lanes. A ganker can’t gank if they are themselves being interdicted by the ATR most of the time. As a ganker it would get pretty tiresome and you would move on, right?

When you are hostile they already do this. Fly past a patrol who are red they'll divert to get you. But again, you can avoid that by flying and by interdicting someone else (although sometimes NPCs can spam you as you drop but thats a bug I believe).

Remember, if I want to destroy you I can sit in open space and it will take time for sec forces to find me, get behind me etc when I'm already at full SC speeds zipping towards you. In short people need to be more aware.