Engineers Perfect solution to the RNG controversy

[drkaii]

I think it needs to mean something and thankfully it already has inherent realistic meaning. It inherently makes sense that each unit of the materials used in these experimental modifications are of subtly different qualities/grades, and the results of applying them to the process would vary in small ways. So yeah, it IS inherently unpredictable, even if this were real life, especially for experimental tests of this sort.

Therefore I think that the "Generating Results" screen should completely hide the sliders, or rather, show them but hide the roulette aspect of them going up and down and settling on a figure. Instead there should be the sliders before you hit "generate" so you know what sort of range the results could be, and then NO sliding, just a result.

There could be a message "Analyzing the sample you provided and doing tests, these are the projected results based on the quality of the sample, do you wish to proceed or discard the sample?"

Spoiler

It will make it seem more like: "the material contains a high amount of oxide and this is bad for the optimal mass, but the high ratio of Beryllium 7 to Beryllium 10 means we can limit the extra heat and power draw the module will produce. Unfortunately, the sample was tainted by high amounts of solar gamma rays, and has also been mined poorly and so we can't get the integrity above 80%"

This makes SENSE, and I think would solve the whole problem people are having with the fruit machine feeling of it all.

Also, it opens up a future mechanic of providing scanners that can analyse the quality of samples as you collect them, and more.

What do you think?

 

[Jamie Wolf]

Well it is technically not a solution, it just hides it.

On the other and everything is better then the slider system that is there right now.

If the samples all were different, then it would make sense that you would have a screen where you combine them yourself and see the expected result. If you dont like it drag in another item.

But judging from the way half finished features stay in Elite I have my doubt that there will be big changes to this part. For the developers it is finished and tehy are on to the next step.

 

[drkaii]

But judging from the way half finished features stay in Elite I have my doubt that there will be big changes to this part. For the developers it is finished and tehy are on to the next step.

I'm sorry but I just find that statement highly unjustified. It will probably take them a while, but they will DEFINITELY tweak it. The Engineers is the best proof that FD go back and improve things

But yeah, that point about combining mats and chemistry in general is another potential mechanic of this solution

 

[askavir]

Indeed seeing the dancing sliders and the rotating roulette wheel does not help, makes it feel too much like a casino... Well, it is a casino anyway, but at least it could be better concealed in order to provide some suspension of disbelief.

 

[drkaii]

It will make it seem more like: "the material contains a high amount of oxide and this is bad for the optimal mass, but the high ratio of Beryllium 7 to Beryllium 10 means we can limit the extra heat and power draw the module will produce. Unfortunately, the sample was tainted by high amounts of solar gamma rays, and has also been mined poorly and so we can't get the integrity above 80%

 

[Tinman]

I'm sorry but I just find that statement highly unjustified. It will probably take them a while, but they will DEFINITELY tweak it. The Engineers is the best proof that FD go back and improve things

But yeah, that point about combining mats and chemistry in general is another potential mechanic of this solution

Except that would make US the the engineers. I get that some want that, but personally I don't feel it fits in the game. We are pilots, not engineers. That's why we go to them in the first place. Elite is more "open world adventure" than "empire/industry building". Eventually...a long way down the road years from now they could eventually expand the game in this direction, but there are so many other things to do first.

Presenting it somewhat differently is however something I'm not against even if it doesn't really bother me that much currently.

 

[Soulkiller]

Doesnt matter on which end you put your RNG on.

 

[who?]

I'd really like to see the presentation changed. It's not bad, but it does feel quite 'gamey'. Obviously it'd be nicer to be able to see the ship or the module itself being upgraded, but if not practical; some kind of engineering test console with numerous dials (or whatever the 34th century equivalent would be) and spectrographs etc.

 

[drkaii]

I'd really like to see the presentation changed. It's not bad, but it does feel quite 'gamey'. Obviously it'd be nicer to be able to see the ship or the module itself being upgraded, but if not practical; some kind of engineering test console with numerous dials (or whatever the 34th century equivalent would be) and spectrographs etc.

That's exactly what I'm getting at

 

[Henri]

I think it is great solution. Also FD should just keep something's to themselves. It makes the world more believable and the whineylittlecrybabies don't come out of the forums sewer

 

[Shanaeri]

The RNG thing (regardless of how it's presented) just feels uninvolving. What I end up with has no bearing on my ability as a player, how much I learned about the game or indeed how I play the game.

A good game mechanic gives the player different routes to achieve what they want, and doesn't restrict them to either play the RNG skinner box slot machines or just quit. The RNG or quit choice is just too limiting for such a huge part of the game

Engineers touch every area of the game, affect too much to ignore like powerplay which is why we need different ways to achieve the results.

 

[Eera]

The RNG thing (regardless of how it's presented) just feels uninvolving. What I end up with has no bearing on my ability as a player, how much I learned about the game or indeed how I play the game.

A good game mechanic gives the player different routes to achieve what they want, and doesn't restrict them to either play the RNG skinner box slot machines or just quit. The RNG or quit choice is just too limiting for such a huge part of the game

Engineers touch every area of the game, affect too much to ignore like powerplay which is why we need different ways to achieve the results.

well says ! [up]

 

[drkaii]

The RNG thing (regardless of how it's presented) just feels uninvolving. What I end up with has no bearing on my ability as a player, how much I learned about the game or indeed how I play the game.

A good game mechanic gives the player different routes to achieve what they want, and doesn't restrict them to either play the RNG skinner box slot machines or just quit. The RNG or quit choice is just too limiting for such a huge part of the game

Engineers touch every area of the game, affect too much to ignore like powerplay which is why we need different ways to achieve the results.

I hear your points and there is an aspect of realism in what you say, especially with weapon effects. I am just saying the way it's done now is also realistic. Reality can be annoying as a game mechanic though

 

[h347h]

The RNG thing (regardless of how it's presented) just feels uninvolving. What I end up with has no bearing on my ability as a player, how much I learned about the game or indeed how I play the game.

A good game mechanic gives the player different routes to achieve what they want, and doesn't restrict them to either play the RNG skinner box slot machines or just quit. The RNG or quit choice is just too limiting for such a huge part of the game

Engineers touch every area of the game, affect too much to ignore like powerplay which is why we need different ways to achieve the results.

That is kind of the point. You are only involved in collecting the materials. The engineer is involved in jury rigging your gear. As pointed out so many times that there are set brackets of where you can 'roll' and since beta 5 they no longer have absolutely bonkers rolls you can achieve. It only takes a hand full of rolls to get into the top 80% of the roll so getting a 'good' roll is relatively easy.

You are all looking for a solution for something that isn't a problem.

 

[kpmop]

The RNG thing (regardless of how it's presented) just feels uninvolving. What I end up with has no bearing on my ability as a player, how much I learned about the game or indeed how I play the game.
...

Well it's no more un-involving than buying a higher class module for your ship. In that case you're earning money to buy a better module, in the case of the engineers you're gaining reputation for a better chance of a good upgrade and then choosing which type of mod to go for for a particular module - faster or more heat efficient etc.

Re: the other comments about hiding the sliders - (off the top of my head) - I think if they could just got rid of the bouncing effect and have the sliders move up or down (as appropriate) to their final (pre-determined) values it would remove some of the casino feel...

 

[Shanaeri]

I get the realism thing. But how come insurance companies engineers can replicate modules and these so called cutting edge engineers cant? The reason is gameplay. If we can use gameplay to bend realism then why cant we use it to give players more ways to create modules?

 

[who?]

The RNG thing (regardless of how it's presented) just feels uninvolving. What I end up with has no bearing on my ability as a player, how much I learned about the game or indeed how I play the game.

A good game mechanic gives the player different routes to achieve what they want, and doesn't restrict them to either play the RNG skinner box slot machines or just quit. The RNG or quit choice is just too limiting for such a huge part of the game

Engineers touch every area of the game, affect too much to ignore like powerplay which is why we need different ways to achieve the results.

That's a fair point, but I think FD have very deliberately gone in this direction.

They don't want the upgrades to be done in a deterministic fashion. If there is a given path to (say) a weapon that deals the most DPS, then that's what the vast majority of people will take. Regardless of how much it costs, or how long it'll take, or the effort involved. Because no one wants to feel at a disadvantage.

If so, the net result of Engineers will be everyone spending a lot of time just to end up with the same set of upgrades as everyone else. To me at least, it seems the goal of Engineers is to provide variety, and such a deterministic approach would add none. With the current approach, even if several Cmdrs all opt for the same upgrades and re-roll to optimise the same stat, they still will never end up with exactly the same modules, they'll always be marginally different.

As it stands, crafting is a choice-based rather than skill-based process. It's about customising/optimising your ship to your playstyle, rather than using your experience/sills to improve your ship more thus increasing your advantage over less skilled/experienced players. I can't speak for everyone, but personally I'm fine with that.

From a realism perspective, it works well enough too. In engineering there's not really such a thing as equality, everything is within tolerances. In Engineers, the tolerances are exaggerated because they have to be. If the tolerances were <1%, we'd be back on the deterministic path that FD seem to want to avoid.

 

[drkaii]

Re: the other comments about hiding the sliders - (off the top of my head) - I think if they could just got rid of the bouncing effect and have the sliders move up or down (as appropriate) to their final (pre-determined) values it would remove some of the casino feel...

Yeah that's exactly what I'm getting at. Even if they don't move up or down to their final values. Just a graphic about the potential range of values, followed by results would do.

I get the realism thing. But how come insurance companies engineers can replicate modules and these so called cutting edge engineers cant? The reason is gameplay. If we can use gameplay to bend realism then why cant we use it to give players more ways to create modules?

I think the point is, production line stock modules are made using a standard manufacturing process using standardised, cost-effective materials and therefore lead to almost identical results. The Engineers do experimental upgrades, which are bespoke and complex and could very well be much more sensitive to the quality of the rare and volatile specimens used.

 

[foebits]

Doesnt matter on which end you put your RNG on.

Exactly. A gamble is a gamble whether it's hidden or in your face. Until this farce gets rectified those jokes that call themselves "engineers" are going to have a lot of free time on their hands.

 

[drkaii]

Exactly. A gamble is a gamble whether it's hidden or in your face. Until this farce gets rectified those jokes that call themselves "engineers" are going to have a lot of free time on their hands.

It's not a farce though. It's based on something of substance. Life is unpredictable, and so would experimental procedures of this sort be. Maybe you resent it as a game mechanic, and I accept that, but it certainly isn't a farce and engineers doesn't need to be in " ". It's a real engineering principle