Engineers Perfect solution to the RNG controversy

[foebits]

That's a fair point, but I think FD have very deliberately gone in this direction.

They don't want the upgrades to be done in a deterministic fashion. If there is a given path to (say) a weapon that deals the most DPS, then that's what the vast majority of people will take. Regardless of how much it costs, or how long it'll take, or the effort involved. Because no one wants to feel at a disadvantage.

If so, the net result of Engineers will be everyone spending a lot of time just to end up with the same set of upgrades as everyone else. To me at least, it seems the goal of Engineers is to provide variety, and such a deterministic approach would add none. With the current approach, even if several Cmdrs all opt for the same upgrades and re-roll to optimise the same stat, they still will never end up with exactly the same modules, they'll always be marginally different.

As it stands, crafting is a choice-based rather than skill-based process. It's about customising/optimising your ship to your playstyle, rather than using your experience/sills to improve your ship more thus increasing your advantage over less skilled/experienced players. I can't speak for everyone, but personally I'm fine with that.

From a realism perspective, it works well enough too. In engineering there's not really such a thing as equality, everything is within tolerances. In Engineers, the tolerances are exaggerated because they have to be. If the tolerances were <1%, we'd be back on the deterministic path that FD seem to want to avoid.

If they didn't want players going to upgrade what they want to upgrade then they shouldn't have introduced engineers to begin with. That is nothing more than an excuse. If they were so worried about everyone having the same thing then they should have made buying the modules an RNG roulette instead. At least then everyone would know that they have no control and no say over what they get.

And no, as it stands, it is NOT a choice based system and it is NOT about customization or optimization because by the very definition and nature of RNG both of those are literally IMPOSSIBLE. And neither is it at all realistic, how many times do we need to state that engineering is an actual science and not a gamble in real life? You don't go to upgrade your motor and get a bloody loaf of bread like we do with this update! Again, the exaggerated tolerances are not needed and no, they don't have to be.

This whole system with the engineers is nothing more than a cop out, or, the worst possible game design ideological standpoint. This is stating exactly this: "Lets implement a system that gives the illusion of choice and customization but actually takes all control away from the player just to make them waste more resources."

Until this sorry pile of weakness is changed into something even close to resembling a system that allows choice/customization/crafting there are going to be a great deal of unhappy players and casinos that sit idle.

 

[Eera]

If they didn't want players going to upgrade what they want to upgrade then they shouldn't have introduced engineers to begin with. That is nothing more than an excuse. If they were so worried about everyone having the same thing then they should have made buying the modules an RNG roulette instead. At least then everyone would know that they have no control and no say over what they get.

And no, as it stands, it is NOT a choice based system and it is NOT about customization or optimization because by the very definition and nature of RNG both of those are literally IMPOSSIBLE. And neither is it at all realistic, how many times do we need to state that engineering is an actual science and not a gamble in real life? You don't go to upgrade your motor and get a bloody loaf of bread like we do with this update! Again, the exaggerated tolerances are not needed and no, they don't have to be.

This whole system with the engineers is nothing more than a cop out, or, the worst possible game design ideological standpoint. This is stating exactly this: "Lets implement a system that gives the illusion of choice and customization but actually takes all control away from the player just to make them waste more resources."

Until this sorry pile of weakness is changed into something even close to resembling a system that allows choice/customization/crafting there are going to be a great deal of unhappy players and casinos that sit idle.

Can't better resume ! [up]

 

[SMcA]

...

Therefore I think that the "Generating Results" screen should completely hide the sliders, or rather, show them but hide the roulette aspect of them going up and down and settling on a figure. Instead there should be the sliders before you hit "generate" so you know what sort of range the results could be, and then NO sliding, just a result.

...

This makes SENSE, and I think would solve the whole problem people are having with the fruit machine feeling of it all.


What do you think?

Yes, and speed it up too.
I for one don't want to watch a one armed bandit, fruit machine, puggy or pokie, strut it's stuff.
You need some pseudo PRNG-ing to add spice. Please make it transparent.

 

[foebits]

It's not a farce though. It's based on something of substance. Life is unpredictable, and so would experimental procedures of this sort be. Maybe you resent it as a game mechanic, and I accept that, but it certainly isn't a farce and engineers doesn't need to be in " ". It's a real engineering principle

Simply put, no. Engineers in real life do not at all role a wheel and see what happens, it is A SCIENCE! Yes there are tolerances and small variations but they are just that, small. If engineers in the real world where at all like these farces, and yes, it is a farce, than technology would have been an impossibility because trying to make a simple wheel would yield a another shape 99% of the time.if you think this is based on "substance" than good for you, but this is not substance and this is not acceptable for a game that boasts about realism; or any game in general.

In short, Real engineers know what they're doing and manage the tolerances to within acceptable parameters, these ones in the game are jokes and would have flunked the most basic of schools.

 

[drkaii]

Until this sorry pile of weakness is changed into something even close to resembling a system that allows choice/customization/crafting there are going to be a great deal of unhappy players and casinos that sit idle.

Isn't there a guy like you for every position of every game mechanic in or not in game? And a person like me of course.

FD will do what sells and will do what pleases the most people in the end.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't going to be true. Experimental engineering is by definition experimental, and while it might not accidentally produce loaves of bread, if an engineer is given only one sample to make a very complicated product, the product will be a few % better and worse than it would be if he could select the best specimens.

Simply put, no. Engineers in real life do not at all role a wheel and see what happens, it is A SCIENCE! Yes there are tolerances and small variations but they are just that, small. If engineers in the real world where at all like these farces, and yes, it is a farce, than technology would have been an impossibility because trying to make a simple wheel would yield a another shape 99% of the time.if you think this is based on "substance" than good for you, but this is not substance and this is not acceptable for a game that boasts about realism; or any game in general.

In short, Real engineers know what they're doing and manage the tolerances to within acceptable parameters, these ones in the game are jokes and would have flunked the most basic of schools.

Apples and oranges. Find me an engineer who has rogue pilots bringing their ships to him in the middle of the desert, with ONE sample of iron ore, and asking him to upgrade the thrusters with his special knowledge. In that circumstance he would end up with a decent amount of variation.

Of course, a lab that selects, produces and refines its own materials and has unlimited stock would fit your description of "real engineers" better, but this isn't what's going on here.

 

[who?]

If they didn't want players going to upgrade what they want to upgrade then they shouldn't have introduced engineers to begin with. That is nothing more than an excuse. If they were so worried about everyone having the same thing then they should have made buying the modules an RNG roulette instead. At least then everyone would know that they have no control and no say over what they get.

And no, as it stands, it is NOT a choice based system and it is NOT about customization or optimization because by the very definition and nature of RNG both of those are literally IMPOSSIBLE. And neither is it at all realistic, how many times do we need to state that engineering is an actual science and not a gamble in real life? You don't go to upgrade your motor and get a bloody loaf of bread like we do with this update! Again, the exaggerated tolerances are not needed and no, they don't have to be.

This whole system with the engineers is nothing more than a cop out, or, the worst possible game design ideological standpoint. This is stating exactly this: "Lets implement a system that gives the illusion of choice and customization but actually takes all control away from the player just to make them waste more resources."

Until this sorry pile of weakness is changed into something even close to resembling a system that allows choice/customization/crafting there are going to be a great deal of unhappy players and casinos that sit idle.

But you do have a choice - we can choose to customise our ships for hardiness or weight reduction. Or longer range, or faster boot times etc. You can't just exaggerate that choice away by saying it doesn't exist. We just can't choose the precise degree to which that module will be upgraded. I understand that you and lots of people want it, but lots of people don't want it in the game too.

My Asp in Beta was an absolute beast. 400m/s cruise, 500m/s boost, incredibly agile, much stronger shields (fitted the strongest class/rated shields, then upgraded them for weight reduction), lots more power, FSD range up to 40Ly even with a few weapons and a SRV. The only choice I was denied was upgrading some items like FSD boot/cool time and scanner abilities, but the lack of those had nothing to do with RNG.

 

[Temple604]

You can just click while the engineers are doing their random dance to skip the animations. This is already in the game...

 

[Shanaeri]

Isn't there a guy like you for every position of every game mechanic in or not in game? And a person like me of course.

FD will do what sells and will do what pleases the most people in the end.

And no matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't going to be true. Experimental engineering is by definition experimental, and while it might not accidentally produce loaves of bread, if an engineer is given only one sample to make a very complicated product, the product will be a few % better and worse than it would be if he could select the best specimens.

I would agree, except in game insurance engineers can exactly replicate the modules that these experimental cutting edge engineers can't do. As I said above, the reason for that is gameplay. And if Gameplay>realism then why cant game play be used to make the engineers more versatile?

 

[drkaii]

You can just click while the engineers are doing their random dance to skip the animations. This is already in the game...

Lol I know, I think you've missed the point though.

I would agree, except in game insurance engineers can exactly replicate the modules that these experimental cutting edge engineers can't do. As I said above, the reason for that is gameplay. And if Gameplay>realism then why cant game play be used to make the engineers more versatile?

I answered this with my view here -

I think the point is, production line stock modules are made using a standard manufacturing process using standardised, cost-effective materials and therefore lead to almost identical results. The Engineers do experimental upgrades, which are bespoke and complex and could very well be much more sensitive to the quality of the rare and volatile specimens used.

Also, isnt' this all about bending the modules outside their comfort zones?

 

[Eera]

Simply put, no. Engineers in real life do not at all role a wheel and see what happens, it is A SCIENCE! Yes there are tolerances and small variations but they are just that, small. If engineers in the real world where at all like these farces, and yes, it is a farce, than technology would have been an impossibility because trying to make a simple wheel would yield a another shape 99% of the time.if you think this is based on "substance" than good for you, but this is not substance and this is not acceptable for a game that boasts about realism; or any game in general.

In short, Real engineers know what they're doing and manage the tolerances to within acceptable parameters, these ones in the game are jokes and would have flunked the most basic of schools.

Thank you for clarifying.

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You can just click while the engineers are doing their random dance to skip the animations. This is already in the game...

It's what am doing since the BETA 1... in a way it less hypocrite !

 

[Shanaeri]

Lol I know, I think you've missed the point though.

I answered this with my view here -

I think the point is, production line stock modules are made using a standard manufacturing process using standardised, cost-effective materials and therefore lead to almost identical results. The Engineers do experimental upgrades, which are bespoke and complex and could very well be much more sensitive to the quality of the rare and volatile specimens used.

Also, isnt' this all about bending the modules outside their comfort zones?

But that's not what happens. the RNGineers create a module with X,Y,Z stats that is totally unique and therefore according to the realism camp cannot possibly be replicated or controlled.

Our ship goes boom and the rebuy insurance companies engineers go here have a module with X,Y,Z stats exactly the same as you lost. Thus for me anyway invalidating the realism argument.

I agree with you it makes sense for stock items, but not for these unique items that are supposedly not possible to replicate.

 

[drkaii]

Our ship goes boom and the rebuy insurance companies go here have a module with X,Y,Z stats exactly the same as you lost.

Ah that's what you meant. Then yeah that's aboslutely correct - it is unrealistic.

 

[Eera]

But that's not what happens. the RNGineers create a module with X,Y,Z stats that is totally unique and therefore according to the realism camp cannot possibly be replicated or controlled.

Our ship goes boom and the rebuy insurance companies engineers go here have a module with X,Y,Z stats exactly the same as you lost

Here a point who really laughing me !

 

[who?]

But that's not what happens. the RNGineers create a module with X,Y,Z stats that is totally unique and therefore according to the realism camp cannot possibly be replicated or controlled.

Our ship goes boom and the rebuy insurance companies engineers go here have a module with X,Y,Z stats exactly the same as you lost. Thus for me anyway invalidating the realism argument.

I agree with you it makes sense for stock items, but not for these unique items that are supposedly not possible to replicate.

Yup, that makes no sense! It was obviously done for gameplay, rather than realism reasons. (Like the escape pods... if my ship crashes and blows up, I'm instantly teleported to a station tens of thousands of Ly away? "Ok...". I can bring enough materials to fill my SRV's 500Kg fuel tank several times over, but I can't bring a thumb drive with my months of exploration data? "Ok...")

I try to justify it that whoever scooped up your escape pod and brought you home, also scooped up your unique modules, but that's a pretty weak explanation.

 

[foebits]

Isn't there a guy like you for every position of every game mechanic in or not in game? And a person like me of course.

... no matter how many times you repeat it, it still isn't going to be true. Experimental engineering is by definition experimental, and while it might not accidentally produce loaves of bread, if an engineer is given only one sample to make a very complicated product, the product will be a few % better and worse than it would be if he could select the best specimens.

Exactly, it won't make you correct. One thing you're missing here is that no person in there right mind would do experimental engineering on only one sample when there is literally an unlimited supply of samples. AND if it's so experimental and nothing is known about the outcome then why would any sane person go to them for a simple upgrade or tweek? The EXPERIMENTAL EFFECTS sure, but the rest of it ISN'T experimental in the slightest. And no, I am not trying to insult you if it's coming across like that.

Let me give only one example of this foolery:
You go to increase the range of your laser, why does it make the weapon dance all around? You aren't ing with the mount and tracking system, only the laser, so why do we have a range increasing mod we can choose that completely defeats its own purpose by making it inaccurate as balls when accuracy would never have been touched?

Like I said before, weapons to loafs of bread and has nothing to do with anything remotely cloase to real engineering and is as far away from the crafting they initially promised as one can possibly get.

 

[Shanaeri]

Yup, that makes no sense! It was obviously done for gameplay, rather than realism reasons. (Like the escape pods... if my ship crashes and blows up, I'm instantly teleported to a station tens of thousands of Ly away? "Ok...". I can bring enough materials to fill my SRV's 500Kg fuel tank several times over, but I can't bring a thumb drive with my months of exploration data? "Ok...")

I try to justify it that whoever scooped up your escape pod and brought you home, also scooped up your unique modules, but that's a pretty weak explanation.

Yeah, that's the way I imagine escape capsules working. My argument here is if gameplay can be used to replicate modules that are supposed to be unable to replicate, why cant game play be used to improve the ways in which people can obtain modules rather than relying solely on RNG

I wouldn't mind using the favour system to determine what I get as that to me seems more realistic. i.e

"Hi shan, seeing as it's you i'll keep trying to get what you want ok?"
me: Sure thanks, If there's anything you want in return
Engineer "I'd love a few cases of lavian brandy"
me: No problem, let me know when you're done.

etc etc

 

[drkaii]

Exactly, it won't make you correct. One thing you're missing here is that no person in there right mind would do experimental engineering on only one sample when there is literally an unlimited supply of samples. AND if it's so experimental and nothing is known about the outcome then why would any sane person go to them for a simple upgrade or tweek? The EXPERIMENTAL EFFECTS sure, but the rest of it ISN'T experimental in the slightest. And no, I am not trying to insult you if it's coming across like that.

Let me give only one example of this foolery:
You go to increase the range of your laser, why does it make the weapon dance all around? You aren't ing with the mount and tracking system, only the laser, so why do we have a range increasing mod we can choose that completely defeats its own purpose by making it inaccurate as balls when accuracy would never have been touched?

Like I said before, weapons to loafs of bread and has nothing to do with anything remotely cloase to real engineering and is as far away from the crafting they initially promised as one can possibly get.

I'm definitely with you on random weapon effects. That doesn't make sense to me. They are redressing that though

Here a point who really laughing me !

Lol eara you are making me laugh

 

[Dbrn47]

Hiding the RNG does not solve the problem of it having the RNG. Rationalizing the RNG will not make me accept its existence either. I will only tolerate it because I want to play the game.