Physics of thrust in normal space

stachUman

S
Well... I remember that from beginning idea was to be as close to newton physics as possible (with exception of over light speed - for a certain reason).
So guys - one thing I can't bear is the way thrusters are working in the normal space, yet I know that this change would be dramatic in terms of overall play.

I bet - you know what I mean?

WHY THE HELL there is limit of speed in normal space? That is simply NOT correct. Assuming - thrusters are producing certain thrust, the difference between different modules shall be obviously the maximum thrust - in other words - acceleration. But that does not limit maximum speed! Even more - you can obviously introduce the limit as ~0.999 c - as relativity effects would start to occurs (which does not occur when using FSD - due to - lets' say - different technology).

By that you'd be able to introduce several other interesting aspects...

I know - it might be a huge change, but then you'll be more correct than ever.

(not to mention that speed is just measurement to agreed reference system :) )
 

stachUman

S
Ah... OK, got your point. Especially software limits.

Maybe different approach... working thruster are producing heat, constantly working thrusters would produce more and more heat - that way user would be forced to limit it's use. Effect would be visible after some time of use (minutes?).

I know, I know :) just thinking it over.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Robert Maynard

Morbad

Morbad
stachUman said:
Maybe different approach... working thruster are producing heat, constantly working thrusters would produce more and more heat - that way user would be forced to limit it's use.
Click to expand...

That would confuse people.

For example, they are already going to radically buff the Dolphin's heat dissipation because that is almost precisely how heat works when countering gravity and ship momentum and some people can't handle it.

Robert Maynard said:
I don't remember it that way.
Click to expand...

Even now, FA Off flight is essentially fully Newtonian...until you bump up against those limits.

Robert Maynard said:
Gameplay - as high-speed jousting and combat by appointment isn't fun for many players.
Click to expand...

Scenarios that would be easily countered by not running thrusters when one did not wish to accelerate...which I do suspect is well beyond the grasp of many players.
 

Brrokk

Brrokk
stachUman said:
Well... I remember that from beginning idea was to be as close to newton physics as possible (with exception of over light speed - for a certain reason).
So guys - one thing I can't bear is the way thrusters are working in the normal space, yet I know that this change would be dramatic in terms of overall play.

I bet - you know what I mean?

WHY THE HELL there is limit of speed in normal space? That is simply NOT correct. Assuming - thrusters are producing certain thrust, the difference between different modules shall be obviously the maximum thrust - in other words - acceleration. But that does not limit maximum speed! Even more - you can obviously introduce the limit as ~0.999 c - as relativity effects would start to occurs (which does not occur when using FSD - due to - lets' say - different technology).

By that you'd be able to introduce several other interesting aspects...

I know - it might be a huge change, but then you'll be more correct than ever.

(not to mention that speed is just measurement to agreed reference system :) )
Click to expand...
I completely agree, but apparently spaceships flying in treacle is considered fun.
 

Kzak

Kzak
This topic again?

To sum it up, by limiting the speed at which a spaceship can travel the game avoids the problem from Frontier: Elite 2 and First Encounters where people could engage in combat while travelling towards each other at a significant fraction of lightspeed, leaving them in weapons range for perhaps 0.1 second if they were lucky, after which they would need to maneuver for quite a while before they were in weapons range again.
 

Marklar_

Marklar_
The bottom line is that the combat in this game is based on the Star Wars trope of WWII dogfights in space. That's just not realistic, not in Star Wars and not in this game, but it's fun because you can acually see the action and react in real time.

Truly realistic space combat would be like in The Expanse, where you have to program the computers for a microsecond engagement as ships pass each other too fast to even see, let alone react. That would not be as fun, and fun trumps realism because this is a game not a physics simulation. The game is fairly realistic as far as astronomy goes, but the physics is full of handwavium for gameplay reasons.

Realistic acceleration would also make travel quite a handful in normal space, because like in The Expanse you'd need to flip-and-burn at the halfway point to decelerate to your destination or pancake into the station. The speed restriction in normal space makes this work more like atmospheric flight, which is unrealistic but intuitive and fun.
 

Brrokk

Brrokk
Attack Chimp said:
DB wants to avoid "Turrets In Space".
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Yes. I think that was a shame and I would have preferred an SF game rather than what I call "Space Fantasy". For me the trade and exploration parts of ED are the best things. I like fitting out ships with turrets so that I can do combat the SF way.
 

Valorin

Valorin
stachUman said:
Well... I remember that from beginning idea was to be as close to newton physics as possible (with exception of over light speed - for a certain reason).
So guys - one thing I can't bear is the way thrusters are working in the normal space, yet I know that this change would be dramatic in terms of overall play.

I bet - you know what I mean?

WHY THE HELL there is limit of speed in normal space? That is simply NOT correct. Assuming - thrusters are producing certain thrust, the difference between different modules shall be obviously the maximum thrust - in other words - acceleration. But that does not limit maximum speed! Even more - you can obviously introduce the limit as ~0.999 c - as relativity effects would start to occurs (which does not occur when using FSD - due to - lets' say - different technology).

By that you'd be able to introduce several other interesting aspects...

I know - it might be a huge change, but then you'll be more correct than ever.

(not to mention that speed is just measurement to agreed reference system :) )
Click to expand...
Because combat. Because people can't handle sim games anymore because they are too inconvenient. Because science seems to be of no interest for the casual player who just wants to do some space ship pew pew. We still shoot rocks for materials, the Milky Way is still a red mist in systems with red stars, we still have ship launched fighters, which we 3D print in our hold, while there are no ship launched mining or scientific vessels and our SRVs can't 3D print, because that's not relevant for combat balance (and the 3D printing thing is gameworld-breaking anyway...) And I won't complain about the small things here...
It's sad, isn't it?
 

Bigmaec

Bigmaec
Valorin said:
Because combat. Because people can't handle sim games anymore because they are too inconvenient. Because science seems to be of no interest for the casual player who just wants to do some space ship pew pew. We still shoot rocks for materials, the Milky Way is still a red mist in systems with red stars, we still have ship launched fighters, which we 3D print in our hold, while there are no ship launched mining or scientific vessels and our SRVs can't 3D print, because that's not relevant for combat balance (and the 3D printing thing is gameworld-breaking anyway...) And I won't complain about the small things here...
It's sad, isn't it?
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KSP disagrees with you ;)

Elite is a space pew pew game, it was a space pew pew game and will ever be one.
To make that playable for people, we have the current unrealistic physics/thrust system.
 

Backelaer

Backelaer
Valorin said:
Because combat. Because people can't handle sim games anymore because they are too inconvenient. Because science seems to be of no interest for the casual player who just wants to do some space ship pew pew. We still shoot rocks for materials, the Milky Way is still a red mist in systems with red stars, we still have ship launched fighters, which we 3D print in our hold, while there are no ship launched mining or scientific vessels and our SRVs can't 3D print, because that's not relevant for combat balance (and the 3D printing thing is gameworld-breaking anyway...) And I won't complain about the small things here...
It's sad, isn't it?
Click to expand...
No it isn't.

'people can't handle sim games anymore' Look, I'm sure you're quite the expert hardcore sim expert, but Elite never was that and never will be.

If it weren't for those pesky kids and their need for 'enjoyable gameplay'!
 

stachUman

S
Naaa... people CAN handle real sims, but audience then is much, much smaller...
I'm 'explorer' kind of person playing ED in a spare time and I'd love to have it much more realistic - especially as it is already 'quite' realistic. Right, 3D printing... I'm not the fighter-kind-of player, so didn't put much focus on that. What's funny - I didn't realize I have back my fighter when I lost one - went to station and realized that even I lost one I still have one. That was strange for me.

WHAT IF there'd be a separate instance with real physics (oh, can't be - what about speed>c ...) - hmm... hmm...
(yep - I love as well X11 and waiting for new MS Flight Sim...)
 

Morbad

Morbad
Robert Maynard said:
Which would likely make combat trivial to avoid.
Click to expand...

Combat is already trivial to avoid for the faster vessel.

It would remain so in a purely Newtonian system, for any ship with a significant acceleration advantage, but only as long as total possible delta-v remained effectively unlimited over the course of a combat, which doesn't need to be the case. Plenty of mechanism could make combat, escape, and pursuit less of a binary thing than it's always been in ED (i.e. the faster ship automatically escapes, unless it's exceedingly fragile), without resorting to any relative velocity cap.
 

Heater

Heater
stachUman said:
Well... I remember that from beginning idea was to be as close to newton physics as possible (with exception of over light speed - for a certain reason).
So guys - one thing I can't bear is the way thrusters are working in the normal space, yet I know that this change would be dramatic in terms of overall play.

I bet - you know what I mean?

WHY THE HELL there is limit of speed in normal space? That is simply NOT correct. Assuming - thrusters are producing certain thrust, the difference between different modules shall be obviously the maximum thrust - in other words - acceleration. But that does not limit maximum speed! Even more - you can obviously introduce the limit as ~0.999 c - as relativity effects would start to occurs (which does not occur when using FSD - due to - lets' say - different technology).

By that you'd be able to introduce several other interesting aspects...

I know - it might be a huge change, but then you'll be more correct than ever.

(not to mention that speed is just measurement to agreed reference system :) )
Click to expand...
It's a game......
 
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