Pip Macros - TOS Violation?

[Jmanis]

This^, plus the simple fact that the 'no pip macros' rule (if there is one) is pretty much unenforceable. How could you tell that anyone was using a macro?

This. Potentially keystroke analysis that labels any really fast and/or consistent patterns as suspicious could be used, but the counter is simply to deliberately add some random delay to the macro keypresses. 200±50 ms wait time between macro keypresses would be slow and random enough to mimic a well-practiced human, but fast enough for gameplay.

This one.

It's not speed or necessarily even an advantage you look for. It's patterns. The problem is, you introduce too much "jitter" and the macro introduces more problems than it's worth, if the difference between using keyboard macro and not is significant enough to warrant using one... and so by necessity they need to be finer-tuned, and so introducing jitter is normally a bad idea.

For any company to enforce it needs anti-cheat software installed as part of the game, which can get borderline malware in some cases, and usually has very negative repercussions around it's use.

But nonetheless, whether it's practically enforceable or not has no bearing on whether it's against the rules or not. FD say as much in their TOS (paraphrasing, lack of enforcement is not acceptance). Like, well, everything... it's not a problem, until it is.

 

[Jmanis]

So it's written down in the TOS, but it's unenforceable, not enforced and won't be enforced and enforcing it would make the game worse for everyone because you'd just end up with a long delay in switching pips for everyone so macros aren't as useful.

Yep... exactly this. I don't understand why people's noses get out of joint hearing that it's against the TOS... virtually everything is.

 

[galahad2069]

Pip presets should be a part of the game in the first place.

Along with many other QoL things (hotkeys, UI elements etc).

There is a hotkey for heatsinks, but not for caustic sinks. While you are trying to set up a carrier jump, the 'no free slots' message forces you to start the whole process all over again instead of allowing you to try another system in the vicinity. You need a 3rd party application (EDHM) to customize your HUD while it should totally be part of the game itself. And so on.

There is zero gameplay reason behind these things, it's just that fdev were too lazy to refine their UI, that's why the game is full of such half baked things. The lack of pip presets is just another example. The 4 pip buttons we have is the result of this minimalistic "it will do" approach. It serves zero gameplay purpose (unless their intention was to create a woodpecker simulator, which I doubt tbh).

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Reminds my of the heyday of Oscar Pistorius, the champion of handicapped athletes. At the time there was a push to have augmented athletes like him being admitted to regular olympics and they were arguing in all seriousness that augments like his gave no advantage, which was total bull of course.
And pretty much coincides with a practice of media picking up bull like that and reporting it without rating the nonsense, just the clicks and page hits.

Of course these augments are, how you say? "increasing accessibility". They sure do. My uncle could also go faster in his motorised wheelchair. But it's cheating in a "regular" context. Allow athletes augmented like that and the "normal" athletes will consider getting such augments, too.
Cheating begets only more fraud. And every MP game dies when the users start the cheater's arms race. It's the cancer of every online MP game.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The effort spent on detecting pip macros could be better spent on dealing with actual cheats, but this has all sorts of edge cases with weird hardware that could result in false positives - the recent CS2 example of accidentally banning people with high-DPI mice is a good cautionary tale.

So it's written down in the TOS, but it's unenforceable, not enforced and won't be enforced and enforcing it would make the game worse for everyone because you'd just end up with a long delay in switching pips for everyone so macros aren't as useful.

Basically someone would have to be stupid enough to admit to using something that FD consider as being against the TOS

 

[Agony_Aunt]

My uncle could also go faster in his motorised wheelchair.

Is this him?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Is this him?

Nah, I hopped on the back and we ventured to the local pub where he could get some social life and beer and I got on the pinball machine.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

There is zero gameplay reason behind these things, it's just that fdev were too lazy to refine their UI, that's why the game is full of such half baked things. The lack of pip presets is just another example. The 4 pip buttons we have is the result of this minimalistic "it will do" approach. It serves zero gameplay purposes (unless their intention was to create a woodpecker simulator, which I doubt tbh).

Sometimes bad-ish UI is the point in simulation games to require all that immersive focus to do everything perfectly. Elite goes a bit wrong here with not being consistent (the caustic sinks hotkey example is a good one) and having just bad UI where it's not part of flying the ship (so many button presses to jump a carrier, no QoL features like "jump my carrier to the body I'm at or whatever system you can that's close if its full")

Sometimes having a "better" UI in complex games means having an even more complex, less beginner friendly UI with even more sub menus for the expert users to set up things exactly like they want or do some things efficiently.

Elite is in the middle here with having minimal QoL and complex menus without really pleasing anyone.

And every MP game dies when the users start the cheater's arms race. It's the cancer of every online MP game.

Elite is primarily PvE tho.

 

[galahad2069]

no QoL features like "jump my carrier to the body I'm at or whatever system you can that's close if its full")

I wasn't even talking about such futuristic solutions. Not kicking you out of the galmap would be perfectly sufficient.

 

[galahad2069]

Potentially keystroke analysis that labels any really fast and/or consistent patterns as suspicious could be used, but the counter is simply to deliberately add some random delay to the macro keypresses.

There would be no need for that. Pip macros might violate the 'no automation software' rule, but having a fast and consistent pip dumping pattern does not necessarily prove that you were using any kind of software. You can achieve the exact same thing using only hardware, be it a special fast-firing button, the mouse wheel or just a faulty key on your keyboard.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I'd certainly need a context sensitive automatic pip management system, although, in truth, I do rememeber to change them more often than not, but, fortunately for me, the biggest hazard I'm ever likely to face is some sort of NPC, and they are very forgiving of slow memories...

 

[Shurimal]

You can achieve the exact same thing using only hardware, be it a special fast-firing button

You're right, I have rotary encoders in my HOTAS setup that I could bind for near-instantaneous pip changes, and many modern keyboards come with rotary encoders, too.

And as I mentioned before, the dual-stage trigger on my VKB stick is also technically TOS violation allowing me to shoot both primary and secondary weapons with a single button. Even the 5-way hat switches and ministicks with a button press (all modern console controllers have these) are "illegal", I can press them down and move them to any other direction with a single movement of my finger.

 

[Morbad]

Are keyboard macros (including ones which change pips) against the EULA? Of course they are.

It's not so clear cut.

Automation is only against the terms of use if it's "unauthorized software designed to modify or defeat the purpose or experience of the Game".

There is a lot of room for interpretation there. It's a deliberately vague rule.

lack of enforcement is not acceptance

The lack of enforcement of a prohibition against an ostensibly prohibited act is the strongest evidence of acceptance of that act there can be. Even explicitly stating something is allowed isn't as convincing, if it hasn't been experimentally confirmed.

Basically someone would have to be stupid enough to admit to using something that FD consider as being against the TOS

Which people do all the time, because they don't read the terms, or assume it doesn't matter, because it doesn't.

At the time there was a push to have augmented athletes like him being admitted to regular olympics and they were arguing in all seriousness that augments like his gave no advantage, which was total bull of course.

They ruled that his blades likely provided no 'net advantage' over athletes with legs and I'm inclined to agree.

All pretensions of fairness are nonsense. There are a million factors that stack the odds for or against contestants, most of which are well outside their control. Which of those variables are considered suitably 'fair' is completely arbitrary and minor tweaks to, or reinterpretations of, arbitrary rules to allow greater accessibility does not offend me.

Of course, I do think some consistency is useful and if one is going to bother making a ruling it should be enforced.

Allow athletes augmented like that and the "normal" athletes will consider getting such augments, too.

Pistorius was allowed to compete. I don't recall many people lining up to get their lower legs amputated on the off chance they'd recover completely enough to turn the modestly lower energy expenditure (at the cost of lower peak energies, worse acceleration, and worse cornering) that carbon fiber blade prostheses might provide in straight-line sprinting over longer distances into more victories.

There would be no need for that. Pip macros might violate the 'no automation software' rule, but having a fast and consistent pip dumping pattern does not necessarily prove that you were using any kind of software. You can achieve the exact same thing using only hardware, be it a special fast-firing button, the mouse wheel or just a faulty key on your keyboard.

You've discovered a loophole. They do specify software (though a fast firing button operates via software), meaning that the slopes I apply with a CH Fighterstick could technically run afoul of an anti-automation prohibition, but the hardware cams I'd use in a VPC WarBRD to achieve the same effect would not.

Of course, they can also change the rules on a whim, which makes listing the rules mostly just a pile of senseless legalese. A statement of intent or some kind of doctrine would need far fewer words and convey things with much more clarity.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

You're right, I have rotary encoders in my HOTAS setup that I could bind for near-instantaneous pip changes, and many modern keyboards come with rotary encoders, too.

And as I mentioned before, the dual-stage trigger on my VKB stick is also technically TOS violation allowing me to shoot both primary and secondary weapons with a single button. Even the 5-way hat switches and ministicks with a button press (all modern console controllers have these) are "illegal", I can press them down and move them to any other direction with a single movement of my finger.

Every input hardware is an augment that gives you an advantage over a "competitor" that doesnt have it. Headtracker user have advantage over pov hat on sticks, oranything keyboard. Voice attack can run simultaneous input to keybiard and sticks.
Hardware is the embodiment of pay to win.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I'd certainly need a context sensitive automatic pip management system, although, in truth, I do rememeber to change them more often than not, but, fortunately for me, the biggest hazard I'm ever likely to face is some sort of NPC, and they are very forgiving of slow memories...

That’s one of the reasons I’ve never bothered to use any of the “This One Weird Trick”(s) that are out there to farm bounties or artificially inflate my combat rank. I know I’m bad at pip management. I also know that combat ranking is accumulative, not relative. Sooner or later, I’m going to encounter scenarios where my incendiary multi-cannons aren’t sufficient against random NPCs anymore.

Sure, it would be trivial to add some “behavioral sensitive” pip management using TARGET software, but where’s the fun in that?

 

[Jack Winter]

unless you have a 60% keyboard, or a disability. I argued that it was an accessibility feature for some players, but I agree pip management is very quick and straightforward. I rebound my pip keys to 1/2/3 for easier access

Yes, I forgot about disabled people.

 

[GJ51]

Only time I recall FD getting upset about automation was when there were signs that it was being used for AFK functions that affected Power Pray...

 

[fennster]

Only time I recall FD getting upset about automation was when there were signs that it was being used for AFK functions that affected Power Pray...

There was a YouTube video years ago that showed someone had managed to make a rudimentary autopilot. When it jumped into a system it used screen grabs to navigate around the main star and jump to the following system en route. That got shutdown pretty quickish.

 

[Brrokk]

There was a YouTube video years ago that showed someone had managed to make a rudimentary autopilot. When it jumped into a system it used screen grabs to navigate around the main star and jump to the following system en route. That got shutdown pretty quickish.

I got interested in doing that once. I had fun learning about extracting circles from images. I decided the learning was the interesting bit though, and instead of coding I'd rather spend my computer time playing Elite.

 

[Northpin]

Only time I recall FD getting upset about automation was when there were signs that it was being used for AFK functions that affected Power Pray...

They also got upset when automation was implied in regards to carrier jumping - in that particular discussion they did intervene to mention that automation is forbidden in the game and defined it as doing more than one action with a press of a button