Piracy and Risk

[Jordan Cobalt]

Which is why I suggested that, except if it causes a problem around stations - which is obviously NOT anything to do with pirates - then it ought to be set as a % of cargo carried.

That doesn't work well either. It just artificially caps the piracy limit like we have now. It's not bad if it was something high like 25%.
You'd also need to work out the percentage so you don't keep over charging. Still it's better than the craptastic system we have now.

Imo the better way would be to just limit it around stations and CZs, the only places blanketing cargo actually effects something. Let pirates set their own percentage. FD setting a limit seems very un-"play your own way".

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I think Pirates should only ask for the amount of cargo that will fill their hold, why ask for more?!!
this is what I find a bit pointless in the Piracy game! perhaps a Pirate would enlighten me! only in a wing
is there any reason to ask for more for the wingmen.

My clipper can fit 128 tons of cargo...... I can carry 20% of a type 9s cargo. Any multirole pirate ship after an adder, can hold more than 20 tons of cargo.

 

[Rick Mason]

Yes Jordan then that is fine, but when a Cobra or even a sidewinder tries to Pirate you and asks
for 50t of your cargo, how does that work!

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Yes Jordan then that is fine, but when a Cobra or even a sidewinder tries to Pirate you and asks
for 50t of your cargo, how does that work!

Idk of any pirates like that. If one does do it, they're probably either trolling, or it's their first day on the job.

They could also be opposing a community goal or something.

 

[waimser]

We need two things to happen imo to fix the current situation between traders and pirates.

We need the consequence of losing your ship to be higher, forcing traders to drop thier cargo rather than accept death. Its ludicrous to me to argue that pirates atm are being greedy and asking too much. NO. Pirate says give me all your stuff or you die? you hand over all you have and thank your lucky stars your alive. A pirate asking for a small amount of cargo and a trader preferring to die is not in any way an acceptable thing to be happening.

The consequence for murder needs to much higher also, but with small things like accidental shootings being a fine to pay off rather than a death mark. This allows the bad guys to get on with business without worrying about an NPC messing up their night, and gives bounty hunters something worth hunting. Right now there is just no reason other than dedicated RP to chase down a known criminal. This brings me to a third thing that we need that I now think is worth adding.

We need a way to actually hunt and catch/kill a criminal cmdr. Without there being some way to follow a trail, it is impossible to find someone unless they want to be found.
Something as simple as the stations listing all cmdrs who docked there in the last 24 hours could accomplish this. This sort of thing opens up other more in depth options as well. Paying a very high price to have data about you deleted, or the hunter paying a lesser amount for more accurate information, both effective money sinks as well which most people seem to agree the game needs.
Without a way to find the cmdr you are looking for, the whole rock, paper, scissors, of who chases who, completely breaks down and we are left with the mess we have now.
Also, having wanted criminals be forced to play in open would go a long way towards fixing the problem. Someone being able to dissapear to solo and run away after they are found is ridiculous. You know what? Just separate solo and open saves while they are at it and be done with that problem all together.

 

[Rick Mason]

They cant do that waimser, You see we all paid the same amount for the game. therefore
we all get the same benefits, either in open, or solo, and players can not be forced into anything for the same reason.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Its the standard piracy thread, start off on a good point, immediately turns into traders shouting about self destruction to spite the dirty pirates like it matters :/ its about as hopeless as open vs solo these threads haven't changed since release.

It's a routine, for sure.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Yes Jordan then that is fine, but when a Cobra or even a sidewinder tries to Pirate you and asks
for 50t of your cargo, how does that work!

I ask for 32 tons of cargo all the time when I pirate in my cobra if the trader is carrying 100 tons or more. And guess what? I get it. I might not get it everytime (because they run and get killed) but I get it. A cobra is a deadly starship in the right hands.

 

[Glenn Ross]

That doesn't work well either. It just artificially caps the piracy limit like we have now. It's not bad if it was something high like 25%.
You'd also need to work out the percentage so you don't keep over charging. Still it's better than the craptastic system we have now.

Imo the better way would be to just limit it around stations and CZs, the only places blanketing cargo actually effects something. Let pirates set their own percentage. FD setting a limit seems very un-"play your own way".

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My clipper can fit 128 tons of cargo...... I can carry 20% of a type 9s cargo. Any multirole pirate ship after an adder, can hold more than 20 tons of cargo.

Yes. 20-25% was what I had in mind. And if it's a game mechanic [shield drops over the cargo door, sealing it intil the trader pays for a repair at a station, the drop could be handled automatically by the PC of the trader. Just hit a button to jettison 25% [ button on the display in the cockpit, not button on player's keyboard] the cargo drop would be automatic, so no quiblles over "You owe me 1T more".

The only thing I have about pirates setting their own percentage is that therer are too many that are using piracy as an excuse to demand money with menaces. It's the poor roleplayers, the ones that demand you drop everything without thinking how much that can prey on people - especially as it can make people think you want them to drop everything so you can kill them anyway and take your time collecting it, and the ones that open fire without so much of a word or a scan, or do scan you, find ou're not carrying anything 'worth their trouble' and destroy you for your impertinence of being small fry, that are ruining it for those that do care.

FD NEED to be seen to be listening to the majority of their players, and there are too many horror stories on the forums to make me believe they can just sweep it under the rug.

I have suggested that the player pirates get together and become self-policing. Reacting to reports of bad behaviour and acting as bounty hunters if it is apparent that a member has stepped out of line. This will feed back into trader confidence and more traders will be willing to surrender a reasonable proprotion of cargo when asked. When player pirates act like NPC pirates, there is no reason for a trader to think that they are going to live through the encounter anyway, so why add to the pirate's pleasure by dropping cargo and allowing them to profit by it.

The problem with this talk of destroying traders out of frustration at a rule FD have put in, is that you are targetting the wrong group. Put it into practice and the easiest answer from the trader's point of view is "Play in Solo". In this instance, and based on my experience it is the WRONG answer. I have been stopped more times in solo by NPC pirates than I have in open by NPCs and players COMBINED! But the benefit for the trader in solo is that the NPCs are so much easier to outrun. [The same NPC had me 3 times tonight, each time I escaped with shields down and increased hull damage, but he ended up following me into the NFZ of a friendly station and the arms of station security (Who were green on my radar)] All it takes for a player pirate to be successful is marginally more brains than that. To be propserous as a pirate it seems takes more brains than the majority of player pirates have, unfortunately.
But pirates are blaming traders for problems caused by other pirates.. Traders can't do anything about whatever limits FD put in the game, but it's pirates that cause traders to whinge about being pirated.
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Go too far down the "Destroy all traders" route and you cut off your nose to spite your face. No traders, means no ships to be pirated, means no pirates. No matter what the ingame justification for pirating, you are interacting with another person when you pirate them. Make it a pleasant experience and you increase your odds of compliance no end. Make it unpleasant and you increase the chance the trader is going to complain. Enough complaints - especially from traders ticketing player 'pirates' that don't ask for cargo, just destroy them - and pirates are only going to force FD into taking out more drastic measures.
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It's the old 80:20 rule. In this case, 80% of the problems come from 20% of the players. And FD will need to keep the 80% of the playerbase happy, or the game dies. I hope that keeping the 80% happy does not involve outlawing playing as a Pirate, but that is what the imbecile pirates are pushing toward.

After all, if some sort of safe 'corridor' along trade routes was introduced where there was no pirating at all, but the profits were lower, I bet most of the traders would go for that. I just don't see the difference between playing safe and knowing you were getting less Cr/Hr because you were safe, and getting the better profits and expecting to lose a proportion to other players. I don't see the point. I have a capacity at the moment of 212T. I'd happily drop the 12T EVERY SINGLE TRIP, or bank it up and pay something like 20T of gold every round trip for some decent company and help with NPC pirates. [and I currently have to make over 20MCr for the fuel scoop I want, plus extra to make sure I have insurance, etc.

 

[Mazuo]

We need a way to actually hunt and catch/kill a criminal cmdr. Without there being some way to follow a trail, it is impossible to find someone unless they want to be found.

Agreed. Systems in place to even grant missions to hunt down players could be interesting if it could be done well. Goes back to what I was saying all along about how pirate profits may be low, but they never have to risk losing them as it stands now. Ideally pirates could make and lose more. Cargo carriers have the one-sided disadvantage of losing hours and hours of work. I'd think the pirates that like to brag about combat would be more entertained by more of it as well instead of just fighting underarmed shipping vessels.

 

[Glenn Ross]

I ask for 32 tons of cargo all the time when I pirate in my cobra if the trader is carrying 100 tons or more. And guess what? I get it. I might not get it everytime (because they run and get killed) but I get it. A cobra is a deadly starship in the right hands.

Not any more you don't. Apparently 20T is all you get. Any more just explodes. And reasonable trader who knows will jetisson 21 T to prove it to you.
Even so, Rick was asking about Cobras that ask for 50T - presumably more than any capacity that can be carried on a ship likely to be armed and carrying cargo scanner and FSD interdictor can hold. Behavior like that makes traders nervous taht they are going to die anyway, so why give out anything? Ask for a reasonable amount, and you will improve your chances of getting it.

 

[Glenn Ross]

Agreed. Systems in place to even grant missions to hunt down players could be interesting if it could be done well. Goes back to what I was saying all along about how pirate profits may be low, but they never have to risk losing them as it stands now. Ideally pirates could make and lose more. Cargo carriers have the one-sided disadvantage of losing hours and hours of work. I'd think the pirates that like to brag about combat would be more entertained by more of it as well instead of just fighting underarmed shipping vessels.

Systems like that could be abused. Pirates also risk losing their [ill-gotten] gains all the time. They don't know if they'll be interdicted by a BH before they can sell them, and they have to avoid scans to do so, and they can only sell stolen items at a black market - presumably meaning less profit than if they could sell at full price at a station.
What is the difference in your last sentence between a combat-orientated pirate and a bounty hunter? Just which side of the coin you are looking at. There is certainly more to pirating than your narrow view, whether you chose to do it in-game or not, it was touted as a viable alternative to "Eddie Stobart in Spaaace!" which is what we traders are currently up to. If I had the talent and inclination, I recon it'd be great fun. Much better than falling asleep behind the wheel whilst docking.

 

[Mazuo]

That's precisely why I've asked for stories from pirates about being frequently in actual danger from NPCs or BHs coming out of the woodwork to end them. So far, none have been provided. I'm listening to any logical argument to the contrary. I'm not sure how much more fair I can be in my assessment when I push for pirates to make more money than they are currently, but to also share in the risk at the same time. The common worst case scenario currently is that a cargo vessel somehow jumps away and the pirate has to return to SC and look for another.

I'm also looking from the eyes of the pirate and thinking it'd be a lot more fun to have challenging adversaries hunting me that I could also possibly earn from in a future system.

 

[GluttonyFang]

That's precisely why I've asked for stories from pirates about being frequently in actual danger from NPCs or BHs coming out of the woodwork to end them. So far, none have been provided. I'm listening to any logical argument to the contrary. I'm not sure how much more fair I can be in my assessment when I push for pirates to make more money than they are currently, but to also share in the risk at the same time. The common worst case scenario currently is that a cargo vessel somehow jumps away and the pirate has to return to SC and look for another.

I'm also looking from the eyes of the pirate and thinking it'd be a lot more fun to have challenging adversaries hunting me that I could also possibly earn from in a future system.

Got plenty, just have to know where to look. If you want to hear stories, go on Code's teamspeak, we have an open teamspeak. I personally have countless encounters with bounty hunters. Some of them ask to try for my bounty, some of them get chased away, some roleplay it out, rarely I get blown up.

Hell, you might have seen me on the top five bounty board somewhere by now. (pre 1.3 expiring bounty)

Basically, if you are a part of Code, have fun being hated by everyone and everything.

You see, when you have a majority of traders combat log into solo when pirated, you don't really have an argument to make for a profession that is known for combat logging. So tell me again, what risk is there in combat logging, trading in solo?

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Yes. 20-25% was what I had in mind. And if it's a game mechanic [shield drops over the cargo door, sealing it intil the trader pays for a repair at a station, the drop could be handled automatically by the PC of the trader. Just hit a button to jettison 25% [ button on the display in the cockpit, not button on player's keyboard] the cargo drop would be automatic, so no quiblles over "You owe me 1T more".

The only thing I have about pirates setting their own percentage is that therer are too many that are using piracy as an excuse to demand money with menaces. It's the poor roleplayers, the ones that demand you drop everything without thinking how much that can prey on people - especially as it can make people think you want them to drop everything so you can kill them anyway and take your time collecting it, and the ones that open fire without so much of a word or a scan, or do scan you, find ou're not carrying anything 'worth their trouble' and destroy you for your impertinence of being small fry, that are ruining it for those that do care.

Limiting the drop rate like that seems completely meta and immersion-breaking. It's basically a "because I said so" feature being added. What about if you just want to clear out your cargo bay? It just seems arbitrary to me.

 

[Mazuo]

You see, when you have a majority of traders combat log into solo when pirated, you don't really have an argument to make for a profession that is known for combat logging. So tell me again, what risk is there in combat logging, trading in solo?

That's rather sad if true. I for one have never combat logged and don't plan on it. That doesn't mean I still won't wish for a more interesting dynamic than a guaranteed loss for the rules-abiding trader/miner. So what risk is there? Millions of credits in ship and cargo loss. Hours upon hours of work flushed out the airlock. A risk that is not shared currently by most pirates. It's interesting that certain high population areas might be awash with BH-Pirate conflict, but it's not true for the populated galaxy at large.

 

[GluttonyFang]

That's rather sad if true. I for one have never combat logged and don't plan on it. That doesn't mean I still won't wish for a more interesting dynamic than a guaranteed loss for the rules-abiding trader/miner. So what risk is there? Millions of credits in ship and cargo loss. Hours upon hours of work flushed out the airlock. A risk that is not shared currently by most pirates. It's interesting that certain high population areas might be awash with BH-Pirate conflict, but it's not true for the populated galaxy at large.

I commend you for having the guts to not combat log, good sir.

If you consider the loss traders take, the time piracy spends in studying systems, waiting in super cruise, properly hailing and demanding cargo, reacting in way that will make destruction of the prey the last resort... etc, we have, if not risk, quite a lot of effort put in. Also avoidance of BH is present, I can assure you that.

 

[DaveB]

There are a lot more reasons than being a pirate for a ship to be attacking you. If you haul cargo for a CG in a lightly armed trading ship the pirates are the least of your worries. A pirate will want some cargo. If you don't like the odds of trying to evade or making a fight of it, the cheapest option is to negotiate a fair amount of cargo to let you go on your way. In a CG zone, count yourself lucky that it was a pirate that interdicted you and not a merc opposing the CG. The latter has no interest in your cargo other than preventing it from being delivered by vaporizing it, along with your ship. The pirate, on the other hand, is trying to make a living and will want to offload their pilfered cargo for the best price they can get. It could easily end up being delivered for the CG anyway, just not by you.

I've been pirated by "good" ones and bad ones. The good ones are simply a minor cost of doing business for a trader. They have their rules, I have mine. Pirate opens comms before opening fire he'll at least get the courtesy of negotiation, while I may run out the guns I won't open fire unless he does for so long as negotiation is happening. If we can make a deal, we both leave with some profit. If the pirate is greedy (which I personally define as demanding cargo of sufficient value to zero out my profit margin on the run or more) and cant be talked down a bit, or if he opens fire I'll fight or run. Doublecrosses me or fires on me after I've dropped the agreed cargo then it's on like donkey kong. At that point I won't consider running until I've at least inflicted a repair bill on the doublecrossing rat.

 

[Glenn Ross]

GF. Firstly, +Rep for comments in the other thread. It's closed and I can't add in that thread, so I have done so here.
Like DaveB, I don't combat Log. I have had genuine connection issues, but that should be sorted - until September at least.
I support the plight of pirate players under these conditions, and have even though I have never (yet) come across a decent one. [It's a big galaxy, after all, and I don't believe I have ever met one of the Code.]
It may be better if more traders understood the expenses of being a pirate, I dare say most think of it in terms of "I buy commodity X for 5K/T, take it to another system and sell it for 6K/T, making profit of 1K/T. Pirate comes along and demands 100T of my cargo, will be able to sell it for 6K/T and makes a fortune as he didn't pay for it in the first place. Why do they have to ask for so much? That 500K I lost will take me Y hours to get back on the profits I make!"
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For the edification of all, would you mind giving us a breakdown of your typical costs and what sort of prices you actually get from the black market? I can understand that spending a whole lot of time in SC costs a lot in fuel, and presumably even that can be hard to get if you are wanted and have to risk a scan. Pirating in a Python or 'Conda must be almost murder getting into a station to fuel up without extensive use of silent running and heat sinks [also adding to the expense].
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It seems that FD just don't get that their hardest working payers are the BHs and pirates.
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As to taking to solo, I have been interdicted more times in solo than in open, the only benefit being I can get away from NPC pirates. But the analogy to the food chain in the other htreas was flawed. It is indeed a CHAIN, not a triangle. Traders are the prey of pirates, who in their turn are the prey of bounty hunters. In no way are bounty hunters the prey of traders. Traders just get it in the shorts any time there is an argument. It's kind of like the situation with crime here in the UK. More and more criminals are getting their hands on firearms, which is forcing the police to use more and more armed response units. With more and more armed groups out there, the ones that seem to suffer the most are the unarmed innocent bystanders.
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I agree that FD seem to be ignoring the massive problem they have handed to pirates - probably because they are listening to the 'squeeky wheels' of malcontent traders [and are making the same mistake as the majority of traders of tarring all pirates with the same brush!] - but I don't see the proposed action as doing anything to help the matter. I see it as forcing louder protests from traders, more traders hopping the fence to solo, and FD deciding piracy is not worth it. That may then force them to re-define the role of the pirate, or give pirates more breaks in anarchy systems but more penalties in lawful systems. I hope that it doesn't end the way I fear. It is, after all is said and done, their game.
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Anything that reduces the variety of the game is a massive, massive step backwards - and that includes pirates forcing traders into solo. We just need more information to make better informed choices, for the most part. There will always be moron traders that won't give anything to pirates on principle, just like there will always be greedy, rude pirates that demand everything a trader has in their hold, and then kills the trader anyway. Each group has to put up with the behaviour of the other, but pirates have the opportunity to be self-policing.
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Or of course, FD could actually implement and make known that cargo is automatically insured for a premium. Traders would then be less worried about losing some.

 

[Glenn Ross]

And could a member of Code please PM me, I have a bit of an idea.
Thanks.