Player-created solutions to player-created problems

[Mohrgan]

Gankers, or most players for that matter, who would risk loosing a full cost rebuy, would not stay long enough to let their ship get destroyed, they would pull the network cable or do something else that cause the same effect.

[edit]
fixed bad wording

What ever. It makes sense and it suits the situation for the PF to just disavow them. Even just so the PF can save some credits that they are currently paying on the criminal's account.

Deterring gankers, for real, isn't even necessary, or my point. Putting them in a situation just forces their hands, you know, letting them show their true colors. It's the best thing for them.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Have the PF disavow and hunt (i.e. something they can't circumvent) them while notorious, and the insurance (perhaps on less favourable terms, reflecting higher risk) be taken up by some equivalent dark-side organisation, as a potential way into the dark-side career path that people keep talking about wanting.

 

[Misty_Dark]

What ever. It makes sense and it suits the situation for the PF to just disavow them. Even just so the PF can save some credits that they are currently paying on the criminal's account.

Deterring gankers, for real, isn't even necessary, or my point. Putting them in a situation just forces their hands, you know, letting them show their true colors. It's the best thing for them.

that was some real solid arguments there Just suggesting new mechanics without taking into account what would most likely happen, is not very convincing arguments...

So wht is next? require players to pay $10 per month to pay for the extra servers to have service side instancing?

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Because this started interestingly - using Fuel Rats as an example of player initiatives - I was hoping for something more interesting than another open-only-pew-pew-centric thread.

The reason of the problem you discuss again and again and again is really simple and can be broken down to two things:

1. there is nothing of consequence to do in the gazillion-systems-galaxy - it's sterile and you have absolutely no effect on it - hence, nothing to do in the long run than play the same minigames. In other words - it is boring, and initiatives like Fuel Rats give you a semblance of something to do here. Ganking is also a gameplay loop which offers "more" in the terms of tuning your murderboat repeatedly and taking on targets which are much more unpredictable than NPC AI. Not to mention "salt extraction" which can offer some cheap thrills to the weak-minded...
2. The only tools of interaction with another commander that we have at our disposal are... hardpoints. There's no trading between players, no real co-op endeavours (wing missions is just the same as solo missions tbh, there's nothing beneficial to the mission itself except higher numbers of X to do. This is contrary to even pew-pew examples from other games where you have Raids which force you to cooperate and you cannot finish them alone - not because the increased mob numbers but the coop aspect. The most banal analogy is two switches need to be pressed at the same time to open door.

Both problems are here by design. So unless the core interaction mechanisms change and with it the very vision of the game, there will be no change and no solution to the "problems" you describe. That however has another drawbacks - if they allow for more "player agency" in terms of owning assets etc., you will quickly see the rise of corpo-squadrons and we will tumble down the path of Eve Online. Which is the path that Braben wanted to avoid, but in my opinion he went way to far in sterilising the galaxy. To the point of neutering it to a wallpaper generator. Just my 2c I guess.

 

[Mohrgan]

that was some real solid arguments there Just suggesting new mechanics without taking into account what would most likely happen, is not very convincing arguments...

So wht is next? require players to pay $10 per month to pay for the extra servers to have service side instancing?

No, there is no logical extension for that. At least the notion that criminals wouldn't be supported, financially, by the Pilots Federation has some sort of in-game logic.

No one can or should solve ganking in the game. Each player has an array of tools to tailor their Elite experience. Ganking just isn't a true problem. It's a boogey-man. Player made problem or otherwise. Just avoid it, which is easily done, or learn to High Wake... Player made problem, solved by players. Perfect.

 

[Misty_Dark]

No, there is no logical extension for that. At least the notion that criminals wouldn't be supported, financially, by the Pilots Federation has some sort of in-game logic.

No one can or should solve ganking in the game. Each player has an array of tools to tailor their Elite experience. Ganking just isn't a true problem. It's a boogey-man. Player made problem or otherwise. Just avoid it, which is easily done, or learn to High Wake... Player made problem, solved by players. Perfect.

So any competent "criminal" player would never pay this 100% rebuy costs, as they would simply disconnect the game if they are on the brink of loosing their ship. NOTHING You have ssaid contradicts this statement, on the contrary, you downplay this....


So your proposed 100% rebuy would in practice for the most part be 0% rebuy....

 

[Robert Maynard]

No one can or should solve ganking in the game. Each player has an array of tools to tailor their Elite experience. Ganking just isn't a true problem. It's a boogey-man. Player made problem or otherwise.

Whether it is, or not, remains a matter of opinion - the same with whether the game should, or should no, attempt to curtail it.

Just avoid it, which is easily done, or learn to High Wake... Player made problem, solved by players. Perfect.

It can only be avoided completely by playing without other players. If it was as easy to avoid in Open as some claim then I doubt that it would cause as many complaints as it does.

 

[Mohrgan]

So any competent "criminal" player would never pay this 100% rebuy costs, as they would simply disconnect the game if they are on the brink of loosing their ship. NOTHING You have ssaid contradicts this statement, on the contrary, you downplay this....


So your proposed 100% rebuy would in practice for the most part be 0% rebuy....

Yeah, but it would make sense in the galaxy. And, anyone who 'avoids' the re-buy just has to go through the process of skipping out. Reaffirming to themselves how lame that is, and they are. It's just an exercise. I don't care a whit about ganking, I just think the PF shouldn't support criminals with insurance. So sue me....

 

[VR StarLightPL]

I just think the PF shouldn't support criminals with insurance.

The more interesting reason is why do you think Pilots Federation isn't a criminal organisation considering the broad spectrum of shady operations its members partake in.

 

[0B]

No, there is no logical extension for that. At least the notion that criminals wouldn't be supported, financially, by the Pilots Federation has some sort of in-game logic.

No one can or should solve ganking in the game. Each player has an array of tools to tailor their Elite experience. Ganking just isn't a true problem. It's a boogey-man. Player made problem or otherwise. Just avoid it, which is easily done, or learn to High Wake... Player made problem, solved by players. Perfect.

To be clear, when I say "solve problem" I don't mean "remove the gameplay completely so we don't have to deal with it." Fuel Rats solve the problem of fuel loss, but players still deal with fuel loss. If we were to instead have Fdev solve the fuel loss problem by giving ships unlimited fuel, we'd be much worse off for it.

So, I agree with your sentiment, but I still believe that there are other solutions beyond the individual player getting good. It's true that individual players can also solve their problem using a fuel scoop, AFMU in case fuel scoop breaks, and KGBFOAM for plotting courses. Should the fuel rats all quit and insist that noobs get good at fuel on their own?

I also believe that if you are fine with how things are, you are under no responsibility to improve things for others. This is a game, after all, it's more than OK to be a little selfish. And within the confines of the game, you're even fine doing more "destructive" things (block anyone who ganks you, gank others, etc.)

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I truly would like other ways to interact with other players than with hardpoints. PtP trade and such would be nice...

 

[CMDR SoldiersFortune]

The problem as I see it is in FDev's court to fix.
The major easy-combat mode of Elite, Arena, was never refined to a state where it was appealing. So it is a struggle for players looking for quick and fast combat in the Elite universe to find any. So instead they take their best ship and camp out where there is guaranteed to be lots of players for the express purpose of forcing combat.

CQC could be a viable outlet for this aggressive and competitive behavior. But because it has been left to rot players seeking stimulation from PvP combat have devised their own solution in the form of ganking high-population systems.

Odyssey might fix this with their 'combat spheres' to some degree, but the Instant Action mode (90s terminology!) that is CQC will still be lacking. Because I imagine it will take some effort to actually travel to a combat zone and engage on the surface. And death will probably not be as forgiving as it is in Arena.

 

[Mohrgan]

The more interesting reason is why do you think Pilots Federation isn't a criminal organisation considering the broad spectrum of shady operations its members partake in.

Criminal organizations don't like to pay another's insurance claims either...

 

[Mohrgan]

To be clear, when I say "solve problem" I don't mean "remove the gameplay completely so we don't have to deal with it." Fuel Rats solve the problem of fuel loss, but players still deal with fuel loss. If we were to instead have Fdev solve the fuel loss problem by giving ships unlimited fuel, we'd be much worse off for it.

So, I agree with your sentiment, but I still believe that there are other solutions beyond the individual player getting good. It's true that individual players can also solve their problem using a fuel scoop, AFMU in case fuel scoop breaks, and KGBFOAM for plotting courses. Should the fuel rats all quit and insist that noobs get good at fuel on their own?

I also believe that if you are fine with how things are, you are under no responsibility to improve things for others. This is a game, after all, it's more than OK to be a little selfish. And within the confines of the game, you're even fine doing more "destructive" things (block anyone who ganks you, gank others, etc.)

Avoiding gankers doesn't have to be a case of 'gettimg good'. That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. There are perfect, one-click, even a newbie could on his/her 1st day, solutions to gankers that I encourage. The entire issue of ganks is just click-bait. If it's not a victim falling into further victimhood, it's a ganker crowing about some one sided view of an encounter. Smoke and mirrors. Players can solve the player problem with the tools we have now. We're good.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Yeah, but it would make sense in the galaxy. And, anyone who 'avoids' the re-buy just has to go through the process of skipping out. Reaffirming to themselves how lame that is, and they are. It's just an exercise. I don't care a whit about ganking, I just think the PF shouldn't support criminals with insurance. So sue me....

So why even suggest a solution that would be pretty useless in practice then? add to this that you do not care about the players that this suggestion is supposed apply to. that if anything does not make any sense at all.

 

[Mohrgan]

So why even suggest a solution that would be pretty useless in practice then? add to this that you do not care about the players that this suggestion is supposed apply to. that if anything does not make any sense at all.

No solution is needed. I thought the idea a fun one, and it made as much sense as the rest of the thread.

Player solved player made problems are my specialty.