Please make NPCs stop jousting in combat.

[Azirphaeli]

Mostly so it's more likely to actually be read by FDev.

Cool, post reported.

Also, the reason they are "Jousting" is because they are trying to get behind you so they can shoot you and you can't shoot them. What do you want them to do, throttle down and wiggle about. They are trying to not get blown up. If you stayed behind them they'd never get a chance to try that re-positioning, which you call jousting, so try doing that.

 

[eyeonus]

Cool, post reported.

Also, the reason they are "Jousting" is because they are trying to get behind you so they can shoot you and you can't shoot them. What do you want them to do, throttle down and wiggle about. They are trying to not get blown up. If you stayed behind them they'd never get a chance to try that re-positioning, which you call jousting, so try doing that.

Thank you for the completely unhelpful suggestion of trying what I've already been trying. It's much appreciated. This thread is about the awful AI, not my piloting skills. What I expect them to do, as I've already stated in a previous post, thank you for taking the time to read it, is they should be trying to keep you in their sights at all times, while maneuvering to make you as big a target as possible, and at the same time attempting to present as small a target to you as they can and ideally not be in your sights at all, all of which are actions that use lateral thrusting quite a bit and forward thrusting almost not at all.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

The only time I have ever seen an NPC not do the joust manoeuvre of "fly straight at their target at full speed hubs blazing, fly right past target, brake, pitch 180, repeat", is when it's not a one on one battle, so I'm going to disagree with you there.

I always play in open. Check my live stream and you can see what system I'm in. Don't expect me to fight you in my exploration ship, though, even if you d do catch up to me.

Join me in CQC, though, I'll be more than happy to go up against you. I'd love to get in a fight with someone that isn't an idiot jouster, win or lose.

Then you are not looking in the right places.
Use your thrusters and just fly perpendicular to them.
They will always do that if you let them, and so will many players.
It's not dumb if you can't stop it.

I've actually never played cqc.
Never really interested me, yet.
Do you have combat vids up?

If I see you about, I'll be SURE to joust you though, since you can't counter it apparently.

 

[Captain Willard]

Bring back Sarah J's npc's and there will be a whole new thread on getting your --- kicked. I'm all for that.

 

[Azirphaeli]

Thank you for the completely unhelpful suggestion of trying what I've already been trying. It's much appreciated. This thread is about the awful AI, not my piloting skills. What I expect them to do, as I've already stated in a previous post, thank you for taking the time to read it, is they should be trying to keep you in their sights at all times, while maneuvering to make you as big a target as possible, and at the same time attempting to present as small a target to you as they can and ideally not be in your sights at all, all of which are actions that use lateral thrusting quite a bit and forward thrusting almost not at all.

Which is a truly terrible suggestion, and the fact you think it's a good idea does indeed put your piloting skills into question.

Your basically saying "Instead of the AI trying to make sure you cannot shoot them, the AI should instead continue to try and keep themselves in front of your guns." No, why would anyone want to do that? Given the option of A) taking fire and B) not taking fire... I choose B) every single time.

You seem to have an issue where your flight patterns and methods of attack make the AI attempt to get behind you. Depending on the ship I am flying and the one I am facing I don't have the AI doing this. Often I stay behind them and they spend their time trying to avoid my fire and re position. Other times the AI instead tries to do a FAO-flip and move with me to keep their superior firepower focused on me and to stop me from outmaneuvering them.

If all you see is jousting, it's because you are flying in a way that the AI sees easy openings to get behind you... which clearly works since you needed to post a thread in the wrong forum to complain about it working.

Hell you said it yourself, "and at the same time attempting to present as small a target to you as they can and ideally not be in your sights at all."

That's what they are doing when they are "jousting" (IE: outmaneuvering you and getting out of your sights). They are, ideally, not in your sights at all!

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

[video=youtube_share;hElXzArVdmM]https://youtu.be/hElXzArVdmM?list=PLST2VzDxDCrwvkU6wYfo-z4UhGbObjl_M[/video]

Telling me I need to learn to fly doesn't solve the problem, thanks much, jerk.

Yes, you're right about that.

You actually have to do it.

 

[eyeonus]

Then you are not looking in the right places.
Use your thrusters and just fly perpendicular to them.
They will always do that if you let them, and so will many players.
It's not dumb if you can't stop it.

I never said I couldn't. I said it was annoying enough to make me not want to do combat, and I hate it.

I've actually never played cqc.
Never really interested me, yet.
Do you have combat vids up?

No, I've never played CQC, every time I've tried, I ended up waiting in the matchmaking screen waiting for other players until I gave up in disgust and just went back into the "real" game.

If I see you about, I'll be SURE to joust you though, since you can't counter it apparently.

Ah, have fun dying, then.

 

[eyeonus]

Which is a truly terrible suggestion, and the fact you think it's a good idea does indeed put your piloting skills into question.

Your basically saying "Instead of the AI trying to make sure you cannot shoot them, the AI should instead continue to try and keep themselves in front of your guns." No, why would anyone want to do that? Given the option of A) taking fire and B) not taking fire... I choose B) every single time.

That is the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Trying to make sure they stay out of my sights is what they should be doing. Putting themselves in front of me is what they are doing.

You seem to have an issue where your flight patterns and methods of attack make the AI attempt to get behind you. Depending on the ship I am flying and the one I am facing I don't have the AI doing this. Often I stay behind them and they spend their time trying to avoid my fire and re position. Other times the AI instead tries to do a FAO-flip and move with me to keep their superior firepower focused on me and to stop me from outmaneuvering them.

If all you see is jousting, it's because you are flying in a way that the AI sees easy openings to get behind you... which clearly works since you needed to post a thread in the wrong forum to complain about it working.

Hell you said it yourself, "and at the same time attempting to present as small a target to you as they can and ideally not be in your sights at all."

That's what they are doing when they are "jousting" (IE: outmaneuvering you and getting out of your sights). They are, ideally, not in your sights at all!

Except that when they are behind me, they are facing exactly the wrong way. They aren't outmanoeuvring me, they're just being stupid. Regardless of what I'm doing, they are trying to joust. Whether or not they are being successful isn't the point. If they were outmanoeuvring me, they would be behind me, flying toward me, shooting the heck out of my rear end while I scramble to get out of their line of fire. That's not what happens.

No matter what you are doing, the NPC are trying to fly at you, full throttle, guns blazing, and if they fly past you, they will brake, flip around, and fly at you, full throttle, guns blazing. This is stupid, this is annoying, this is what I'm complaining about.

Regardless of what you "see", this is what the AI is always doing. When we, as people with brains, easily outmanoeuvre their pitiful attempts to joust, that doesn't mean they aren't jousting. They're still jousting, you're just outmanoeuvring them so it isn't successful.

 

[eyeonus]

Yes, you're right about that.

You actually have to do it.

Seen it. Do it. The NPCs still joust. Just because I can kill them because they're stupid doesn't make them not stupid.

Just so you know, you've literally linked a video telling Players exactly what I'm saying the NPCs should be doing.

 

[ilo]

What I expect them to do, as I've already stated in a previous post, thank you for taking the time to read it, is they should be trying to keep you in their sights at all times, while maneuvering to make you as big a target as possible, and at the same time attempting to present as small a target to you as they can and ideally not be in your sights at all, all of which are actions that use lateral thrusting quite a bit and forward thrusting almost not at all.

There you go, jousting.

I'm sure a video might help identifying how they do jousting, because they are not doing jousting to me.

 

[eyeonus]

I'm sure a video might help identifying how they do jousting, because they are not doing jousting to me.

This isn't even my video, I just did a search on YouTube for "Elite Dangerous PvE":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkpG-m9I60A

Skip to 2:50 and watch the "Master"-ranked NPC "William Wellesley" joust like a pro and get taken out in like, 30 seconds.

I haven't even watched the rest of the video, but I'm willing to bet every single NPC this guy takes down jousts just like old Willy-boy did.

Yup. 6:10, the "Elite"-ranked NPC "TikTik" goes straight for the joust.

And another "Elite"-ranked NPC that goes straight to jousting at 7:50.

Not one of these guys even tries to flank, or go above or below, or anything other than joust, which, as I've said before, is the name given to the flight pattern of "aim at target, fly full throttle at target with guns blazing, fly past target, brake, flip around, repeat". It's not the name I've given it, it was called jousting before this game even existed, because this is a common AI problem in nearly every space sim.

I don't think it's too much to ask FDev to look into making the AI not fly like idiots while they're working on improving things in the Beta.

The only time in my experience it's not frightfully obvious that jousting is exactly what every NPC does, all the time, is when the combat involves more than two ships, and that's probably more because the outnumbered ship can't decide which attacker to joust with.

 

[eyeonus]

There you go, jousting.

As I've said countless times on this thread, jousting is the exact opposite of "keep[ing] you in their sights at all times, while maneuvering to make you as big a target as possible, and at the same time attempting to present as small a target to you as they can and ideally not be in your sights at all"

 

[eyeonus]

Bring back Sarah J's npc's and there will be a whole new thread on getting your --- kicked. I'm all for that.

Who? What? I don't know what you're talking about, but if you're saying that these NPCs you mention would be a challenge, then yes, please bring them back.

 

[Stealthie]

jousting requires 2 jousters, joust saying ...

This.

If an NPC is jousting, it's cos you're jousting too.

 

[eyeonus]

This.

If an NPC is jousting, it's cos you're jousting too.

No, it isn't. It's because that's what they do. Just watch any video made by any commander doing PvE, you will see that every single NPC in every single one of them does the exact same thing, regardless of what the commander does: fly straight at the commander, guns blazing, until they fly right past, then brake, turn around, and do it again. It doesn't matter if the commander is jousting, strafing, or sitting stock still, the NPCs alwaysfollow that same pattern.

And, since I obviously haven't said it enough times, that pattern is what jousting is:

1: fly straight at target at full speed
2: shoot at target, making no effort to evade being shot at by target
3: narrowly miss colliding into target while flying past, still at full speed
4: slow down after passing target and pitch 180
5: go back to step 1 and repeat until dead

 

[eyeonus]

[video=youtube;hElXzArVdmM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hElXzArVdmM[/video]

Huh, would you like at that? The exact same guy, in battle, and all the NPCs he's fighting with are jousting with him. Well I'll be....
[video=youtube;GgRKpDAcRuA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgRKpDAcRuA[/video]

 

[Aashenfox]

jousting requires 2 jousters, joust saying ...

This.

It's your flight technique that makes them joust. They don't joust me. I was truly impressed how an Elite FDL outmaneuvered my Cutter last night, I had to go FA off to get him under my guns.

When they do their attack run (the first of the jousts you describe), you need to use that opportunity to get behind them. Look at their direction in your left side target display, boost to keep them from turning onto you.

 

[Aashenfox]

No, it isn't. It's because that's what they do. Just watch any video made by any commander doing PvE, you will see that every single NPC in every single one of them does the exact same thing, regardless of what the commander does: fly straight at the commander, guns blazing, until they fly right past, then brake, turn around, and do it again. It doesn't matter if the commander is jousting, strafing, or sitting stock still, the NPCs alwaysfollow that same pattern.

And, since I obviously haven't said it enough times, that pattern is what jousting is:

1: fly straight at target at full speed
2: shoot at target, making no effort to evade being shot at by target
3: narrowly miss colliding into target while flying past, still at full speed
4: slow down after passing target and pitch 180
5: go back to step 1 and repeat until dead

This is correct, unless the player does something to prevent it. If you are constantly giving the opponent that much space (overshooting by so much), of course they're going to try to do that. I'll post a vid later, maybe.

Anyway, Elite already has the best combat AI of any game I've played, and I think I've played most of the relevant ones. It;s not perfect, sure, it can be gimped and kited, but that's again down to the player. If you fly aggressively always flying forward and trying to get behind them, it's a very fun dogfighting model with a high skill cap. BEsides, if you really want a challenge, there are plenty of players about with itchy triggers.

 

[eyeonus]

This.

It's your flight technique that makes them joust. They don't joust me. I was truly impressed how an Elite FDL outmaneuvered my Cutter last night, I had to go FA off to get him under my guns.

When they do their attack run (the first of the jousts you describe), you need to use that opportunity to get behind them. Look at their direction in your left side target display, boost to keep them from turning onto you.

No it isn't. It's their AI. I do use that opportunity to get behind them. That my point. They all do jousting, which is stupid, which means they're all stupid, which means they die. Quickly and easily. You should NOT be able to take an Elite-ranked pilot in an anaconda with a sidewinder, NPC or otherwise.

And yes, they do joust you. Just because you are capable of outmanoeuvring an idiot that's trying to joust with you doesn't mean the idiot isn't trying to joust with you.

 

[Aashenfox]

No it isn't. It's their AI. I do use that opportunity to get behind them. That my point. They all do jousting, which is stupid, which means they're all stupid, which means they die. Quickly and easily. You should NOT be able to take an Elite-ranked pilot in an anaconda with a sidewinder, NPC or otherwise.

And yes, they do joust you. Just because you are capable of outmanoeuvring an idiot that's trying to joust with you doesn't mean the idiot isn't trying to joust with you.

But that's kind of my point, it doesn't have to be that way, it's in your hands to make it go differently. Don't get me wrong I do see what you're saying, I don't completely disagree, but I find (especially multiple contact) engagements in elite to be very... Fun? If it was pure jousting it wouldn't be. I joust myself when it suits me. But only when it suits me. Especially against a more maneuverable opponent, if you slow down and keep it in the blue zone, they will give you a good turning fight.