When human ships are so massively OP, every tactic beyond running is hopeless anyway, and that was coded out on the request of the community. Seems partly back in beta btw.
Please make NPCs stop jousting in combat.
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When human ships are so massively OP, every tactic beyond running is hopeless anyway, and that was coded out on the request of the community. Seems partly back in beta btw.
Wow wow there seems to be a bit of bad faith and miscommunication on this thread.
Please people keep it civil.
I'll side with OP here on the fact that he tried to make it clear that the issue he has with the AI is not the difficulty (it's just more boring) nor the fact that each fight ends in a joust (that's up to the player to break the cycle).
If I understand him correctly, he feels that whatever you do, the AI will TRY and enter in a jousting pattern, even though he might fail at it due to player input/ability.
While it might be a bit far-fetched to say that it's their only technique, it's certainly their most common one in terms of offensive engagement. I have to agree with him on this as this pattern is at times way too obvious, and NPC's don't feel diversified enough in that regard. Of course low ranking ones are mostly flying aimlessly where elite ones are quite spot-on but even they are quite unidirectional in their combat approach.
If that technique was used appropriately instead of MOST OF the time, even when totally useless, that would be less of an issue as it can be an effective tactic.
I feel that what NPC's might benefit from is the ability to orbit with FA-Off, or at the very least make usage of lateral thrusters + yaw or vertical + pitch at times to add some variety to their combat abilities.
Of course in order not to make things unnecessarily difficult for casual players, this should only be performed by top tier NPC's (dangerous, deadly and elite) while the rest of them carry on with the current AI.
Explorers, traders, mission runners and such won't very frequently meet top tier NPC's which are more commonly found in HazRES'es, CNB's or CZ's so they shouldn't be impacted much by this behavioural fine-tuning. Even so, guys like Rinzler made videos about how to evade ganks in trading ships without sacrificing much of cargo capacity so there's that (and such advice is even applicable to PvP so yay if you're playing open).
What d'yall think ?
Please people keep it civil.
I'll side with OP here on the fact that he tried to make it clear that the issue he has with the AI is not the difficulty (it's just more boring) nor the fact that each fight ends in a joust (that's up to the player to break the cycle).
If I understand him correctly, he feels that whatever you do, the AI will TRY and enter in a jousting pattern, even though he might fail at it due to player input/ability.
While it might be a bit far-fetched to say that it's their only technique, it's certainly their most common one in terms of offensive engagement. I have to agree with him on this as this pattern is at times way too obvious, and NPC's don't feel diversified enough in that regard. Of course low ranking ones are mostly flying aimlessly where elite ones are quite spot-on but even they are quite unidirectional in their combat approach.
If that technique was used appropriately instead of MOST OF the time, even when totally useless, that would be less of an issue as it can be an effective tactic.
I feel that what NPC's might benefit from is the ability to orbit with FA-Off, or at the very least make usage of lateral thrusters + yaw or vertical + pitch at times to add some variety to their combat abilities.
Of course in order not to make things unnecessarily difficult for casual players, this should only be performed by top tier NPC's (dangerous, deadly and elite) while the rest of them carry on with the current AI.
Explorers, traders, mission runners and such won't very frequently meet top tier NPC's which are more commonly found in HazRES'es, CNB's or CZ's so they shouldn't be impacted much by this behavioural fine-tuning. Even so, guys like Rinzler made videos about how to evade ganks in trading ships without sacrificing much of cargo capacity so there's that (and such advice is even applicable to PvP so yay if you're playing open).
What d'yall think ?
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This. Exactly this. Everything this guy said is spot on.
Aw stop it ;-) you're going to make me blush.
You know how they would be if space battles were that realistic? they would be: jousting.
I was annoyed by the endless jousting until I bound the flight assist button as a hold-down button to one of my joystick thumb keys. Now, when they try this nonsense when I'm pipped into Weapons, I toss pips into engines to speed my rotation and go Newtonian. Jousting becomes a useless tactic if you're diving into a target that is flying backward and unleashing hot fury in your face; they actually tend to change tactics after a couple of passes and get into the game of chase that I think the OP is looking for. The jousting is the only thing that makes combat risky if you have flimsy shields.
Bob Lighthouse
Banned
The bold parts are important, the rest everyone already agreed to implicitly.
It was also explained that the AI has been nerfed, due to player complaints.
So you're not really saying anything different, other than that little bit about siding with the op.
Be glad the AI got nerfed. It was bad, very bad. Unlimited god mode plasma accelerators that never ran out of ammo, unlimited chaff, heat sinks, and shield cell banks. And super accurate, deadly super accurate, from a long distance make a Russian sniper jealous accurate.
@op Elite and dangerous ranked ships do use mild engineering and they also use fixed weapons. That alone means you will end up in a jousting match if you dont take actions to stop it.
Also you never said what ship you use and how its loaded out. That right there has a big effect on how a fight goes down. If your in a conda on up? Yeah its a jousting match no matter what is changed about the npc's. Using a Cutter or a Vette in combat and then complaining about how the npcs fight you is very disingenuous. Now if your in a Clipper, Fas, or Fdl then you have somewhat of an issue. But then again fighting in a 3d enviroment, with an enemy that uses fixed weapons and no gravity? Its not them its you.
@op Elite and dangerous ranked ships do use mild engineering and they also use fixed weapons. That alone means you will end up in a jousting match if you dont take actions to stop it.
Also you never said what ship you use and how its loaded out. That right there has a big effect on how a fight goes down. If your in a conda on up? Yeah its a jousting match no matter what is changed about the npc's. Using a Cutter or a Vette in combat and then complaining about how the npcs fight you is very disingenuous. Now if your in a Clipper, Fas, or Fdl then you have somewhat of an issue. But then again fighting in a 3d enviroment, with an enemy that uses fixed weapons and no gravity? Its not them its you.
Not to mention some blatant falsehoods being stated and other nonsense.
The nonsense: OP posted this in BETA Feedback knowing full well it wasn't where the thread belongs. Proceeds to call people who disagree with him names and get snarky with them for no reason. I would hardly say he's been trying to convey ideas and more trying to argue and get attention.
The falsehoods:
The nonsense: OP posted this in BETA Feedback knowing full well it wasn't where the thread belongs. Proceeds to call people who disagree with him names and get snarky with them for no reason. I would hardly say he's been trying to convey ideas and more trying to argue and get attention.
The falsehoods:
- All NPCs do is joust. This is incorrect, NPCs are reactive, yes, and if you are flying in such a way that jousting is advantageous to the AI it will take advantage. It is, however, far from their only tactic.
- Jousting is somehow a "bad idea" in this space game: completely false. OP himself said that the AI should be trying to get out of your weapon sight and that is literally what they do when they get behind you. It limits time they take fire and, if you respond poorly to jousting like the OP seems to be doing, they can maximize time their weapons are facing you while you are adjusting to get them back in your targetting field. Why would they do anything other than this when you fly in that manner?
- NPCs should focus more on lateral thrusters and verts instead of their forward thrusters. No, again that's silliness. The forward thruster is the most responsive and powerful of your thrusters and thus is the best way to preposition and respond to ship movements so long as you are capable of properly positioning your ship. Your other thrusters are capable of adding other movements to your ship to throw off aiming and ensure you stay pointed where you want and out of sight of the enemies and, hey! The NPCs already do this. Again, though, it's harder to notice because those thrusters are weaker and less responsive but they do use them especially when they are higher ranked. You can see them firing all the time when you are in close.
- NPCs and Players who joust are dumb and bad. Wrong, there's any number of reason why they are jousting. It could be because you are a bad pilot who's easy to get behind. It could be because they know their ships engines and config makes it easier for them to perform quick diving attacks or might be capable of staying behind you. It could also be that you are using your forward thrusters thus initiating a joust yourself without realizing it. In some ships I fly I make sure to joust in the initial start of combat but then I re-position to ensure I stay behind them. It's a tool in my arsenal, and if the NPC or Player can't adjust or address me now tailing them and freely firing then that's not my problem.
You forgot the "a python with 0 pips in engines should outmaneuver any small ship like eagles".. that is when I stop paying attention.
And, as many people have pointed out in different ways, that's a bit like complaining because a computer always makes the same moves when playing noughts & crosses. (or tic tac toe for colonials).
If you're playing noughts & crosses with a computer, it'd be a bit daft to moan because the computer doesn't make a variety of different moves because it's always looking for the most advantageous move and that's always going to be the same move.
Same thing applies with combat in ED (or any other game).
You can just program the AI to make a variety of different moves but if you do that you're always going to be telling the AI to ignore the optimal move and do something else instead - just to add a bit of variety.
You can usually hide this in a flight-sim because energy management, gravity and terrain provides an opportunity to "hide" any poor choices made by an AI for the sake of making the game more interesting.
In a space-sim, however, there's none of those things so if the AI does anything random it's always going to put it at a disadvantage and it's always going to be really obvious.
As I already asked, I wonder if anybody could provide an example of something new an AI could do in ED to add variety without putting itself at a disadvantage?
Thinking about it, I wonder what combat rank the OP is?
NPCs definitely up their game as you reach dangerous/deadly/elite.
If you're, say, at master level then NPCs do act more like cannon-fodder.
Fully agree here! OP is IMO wrong.
I have seen that the NPC's use a lot of different tactics based on your own. I can see those differences especiay when changing my ship again. Fighting in a Python or fighting in a Chieftain makes the NPC's reacting completely different!
They use all of their thrust abilitys (sometimes beyond reasonable level, how can they suddenly stop from 250m/s to 0m/s in one second in a Python?) and if you as a player use them too, they immediatly stop jousting.
There are just very rare situations where i see an NPC jousting. Usually it's the Thargoid Scouts when i'm sitting in my Type-10
This thread isn't about the weaponry that NPCs have. Regardless of what weapons, defenses, shields, or ship they have, the flight pattern is still the same.
The flight pattern is the same because of the weapons they have. Try to find a npc that has turrets and youll see that they fight different.
I didn't, actually. The Beta forum is for feedback and suggestions for improvement. This thread is feedback and a suggestion for improvement.
1. Please, show me an example of an NPC at any ranking in a 1v1 dogfight doing something other than trying to joust. It doesn't even have to be your video.
2. Being behind your target is definitely advantageous. Being anywhere except in front of your target is definitely advantageous. Being behind your target going full speed in the opposite direction as your target is stupid.
3. No they don't. If they did, they wouldn't be in my sights, facing me, flying at me like a game of space chicken. They'd be doing what we do, which is using attitude adjustments and strafing to keep us in their sights while at the same time keeping them out of ours. Did you know that attitude adjustments and strafing means focusing on lateral thrusters? No way!
4. If jousting is so awesome, then how come every single "git gud" post on this thread, and every single "how to fight" video for this game, is precisely about how to not joust?
First, it wasn't my video, it was a video that I found one YouTube that had multiple examples of NPCs trying to joust.
Second, that 0-engine pip Python DID outmanoeuvre the Eagle. He killed Willy-boy in less than a minute, in large part because Willy was jousting, while the commander was not.
I've noticed jousting, yes. But not as you speak of it. It is usually a result of my overshooting the target or not doing proper pip management and boost turns like I should, thus resulting in allowing the enemy to pass me and roll back on me before I can get turned around.
In all my jousting encounters, I was at a maneuverability disadvantage either from ship/build or my own mistakes.
If you're seeing anything other than their top/bottom profile or the glow of their rear thrusters, you're doing something wrong.
In all my jousting encounters, I was at a maneuverability disadvantage either from ship/build or my own mistakes.
If you're seeing anything other than their top/bottom profile or the glow of their rear thrusters, you're doing something wrong.
Didnt watch the video, dont need to see it.
My main combat ship is a vette, while not as slow as my cutter, it takes forever to spin around. Im comparing this to my clipper, which can turn on a dime and can boost at 600. So why do I (or you for that matter) expect the npc fight and flight model to be the same for each of those ships? I love it when a npc tries to joust me in my Vette. Not only is it a dumb move, but if i time it right with a perfectly time boost, i can crack an anaconda in half while its still at 50% hull. Now ill admit that my vette is heavily engineered but i know what it can and cant do. When i fly it i expect noc to joust and use that against them.
That is precisely what I'm talking about. NPC combat is easy as hell, because NPCs always try to joust. The whole point of this thread is that I want NPCs to STOP being stupid jousters.
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