Police to issue warnings before shooting-to-kill

[Micha]

Really REALLY fed up right now.

Killed about 20 pirates in a Res zone racking up a million or so in bounties (for me, that's a LOT, I'm not usually a combat pilot), helping the police all the time.

Right after I killed the last one, not sure what happened, but as I turned away to head out to claim my bounties (and complete a mission), the police suddenly turn hostile, and kill me, giving no warning, and no chance to escape. I'm -guessing- one of them flew into my line-of-sight while I was taking out the last pirate. just looked in my logs, and still not sure what happened.
But apparently, when I attacked and killed the last pirate, the police issued a 200Cr bounty on me, and killed me outright. WHAT SERIOUSLY?

This is really poor game design. 200Cr bounty (for taking out a pirate?? Which I had definitely scanned and was not only wanted but part of the target faction for my mission! And as soon as I killed him my mission completed..) and I'm instantly enemy number 1? When there's pirates around with bounties of 100,000Cr and more?

Not only lost all those bounties, but also 5 million rebuy. Yeah, wah wah wah, but I'm really hacked off right now.


Where's the karma in helping the police take out a bunch of high-profile criminals and then immediately be declared public enemy no 1 at the slightest infraction? I'm not even sure where the bleeding infraction came from..



Attached snippet of my logs:

Spoiler

{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:56:53Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "From_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "Message":"$Police_ThankYouPassedStopAndSearch02;", "Message_Localised":"You're clean. Proceed, pilot.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:57:44Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Caelas;", "From_Localised":"Caelas", "Message":"$Pirate_OnStartScanCargo01;", "Message_Localised":"I see all!", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:57:54Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Caelas;", "From_Localised":"Caelas", "Message":"$Pirate_OnNoCargoFound10;", "Message_Localised":"There's nothing worth my while here.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:57:54Z", "event":"Scanned", "ScanType":"Cargo" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:58:03Z", "event":"Music", "MusicTrack":"Combat_Dogfight" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:58:24Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Christian Kavanagh;", "From_Localised":"Christian Kavanagh", "Message":"$Pirate_OnDeclarePiracyAttack05;", "Message_Localised":"You have no chance now.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:58:54Z", "event":"Bounty", "Rewards":[ { "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Reward":64962 } ], "Target":"federation_dropship_mkii", "TotalReward":64962, "VictimFaction":"No Look Here Gang" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "From_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement05;", "Message_Localised":"Emergency reserve force deploying.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "From_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement01;", "Message_Localised":"Reinforcements incoming.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Caelas;", "From_Localised":"Caelas", "Message":"$Pirate_OnDeclarePiracyAttack02;", "Message_Localised":"You choose death then. Very well.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"assault", "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Victim":"Caelas", "Bounty":200 }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:10Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "From_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "Message":"$OverwatchAttackRun06;", "Message_Localised":"Lining up for the shot.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:17Z", "event":"ShieldState", "ShieldsUp":false }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:23Z", "event":"Bounty", "Rewards":[ { "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Reward":58500 } ], "Target":"federation_gunship", "TotalReward":58500, "VictimFaction":"No Look Here Gang" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:23Z", "event":"MissionRedirected", "MissionID":232482019, "Name":"Mission_Massacre_name", "NewDestinationStation":"Talalay Retreat", "NewDestinationSystem":"Deriso", "OldDestinationStation":"", "OldDestinationSystem":"Pennsylvania" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:24Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.796828, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:33Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.590382, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:40Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.399717, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:59Z", "event":"HullDamage", "Health":0.199852, "PlayerPilot":true, "Fighter":false }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T22:00:01Z", "event":"CommunityGoal", "CurrentGoals":[ { "CGID":428, "Title":"Conflict in Colonia – Colonia Council", "SystemName":"Colonia", "MarketName":"Jaques Station", "Expiry":"2017-10-26T15:00:00Z", "IsComplete":false, "CurrentTotal":667518374, "PlayerContribution":105800, "NumContributors":225, "TopRankSize":10, "PlayerInTopRank":false, "TierReached":"Tier 3", "PlayerPercentileBand":100, "Bonus":300000 } ] }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T22:00:13Z", "event":"Died", "KillerName":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "KillerName_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "KillerShip":"python", "KillerRank":"Master" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T22:00:18Z", "event":"Music", "MusicTrack":"MainMenu" }

 

[RidingTheFlow]

They always warn me first if I shoot them by accident when hunting - and you have to be really determined to get attacked from that.

However from what you describe it sounds like "last pirate" wasn't really a wanted ship. This happened before to me - it gets monotous in while, and eventually you just start shooting this next FDS without really noticing that it didn't have red "wanted" in his scan.

 

[LuxAeterna]

That's happened to me a time or two in the RES sites. I see a target with a bounty and the feds are pounding 'em then I get fined for shooting at them. Usually I'm good about watching my notices but sometimes I miss them and don't stop shooting until the feds are on me and I'm now wanted.
It happens to me from time to time but not enough to think it's a bug or anything. I usually make a quick retreat in time, dock at station until timer disables and then H-jump out and back to system to clear the wanted tag.
I also keep a close eye on the feds swarming a target because they like to cross my path of fire during an engagement sometimes.

 

[metatheurgist]

{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"assault", "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Victim":"Caelas", "Bounty":200 }

Looks like you shot before your scan cleared.

 

[Kevin Kyle]

Ive accidentally shot a good guy before, he wasnt the police but he wasnt wanted either. He was in a Python and there was a pirate in a Python too. He had gotten out of my view and when I swung around I targeted the Python and started shooting. Didnt notice I was shooting the wrong one until it was too late. The police dont like that, they killed me before I could hiwake out. Doh! lol Lesson learned. So these days, when hunting in a res with police around, I make sure I have a good system targeted and I watch to make sure I havent gained a bounty by accident so I can get out of there fast. It pays to do that because sooner or later, your going to shoot someone you didnt mean too.

 

[Kevin Kyle]

{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"assault", "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Victim":"Caelas", "Bounty":200 }

Looks like you shot before your scan cleared.

Yep, Ive dont that as well. Itchy trigger fingers will cause that. lol

 

[Cuddlestuff]

I’m a bounty hunter and this usually is you didn’t complete a scan on a wanted ship before firing, they really need to fix this. Although I don’t like making the game easier for people, I would have to agree a warning or a chance to pay the bounty would be kinda cool like if the cops warned asked you to stop moving and if you do a chance to pay the fine would be neat

 

[Ian Doncaster]

200Cr bounty (for taking out a pirate?? Which I had definitely scanned and was not only wanted but part of the target faction for my mission! And as soon as I killed him my mission completed..) and I'm instantly enemy number 1? When there's pirates around with bounties of 100,000Cr and more?

On the other hand if they didn't immediately go for a player with a 200 credit bounty...
- player A is hunting in a RES
- player B opens fire on player A
- player B gets 200 credit assault bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills player A and gets 6,000 credit murder bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills players C, D, E, F and G
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about

 

[Micha]

{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"assault", "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Victim":"Caelas", "Bounty":200 }

Looks like you shot before your scan cleared.

If my scan didn't clear first how could I know that he was in the faction I was hunting? As for being "clean" a few lines above this is the same ship scanning other ships (including me) and trash-talking ("There is nothing worth my while here") - proving he's wanted.

I'm aware of scans having to clear first (but again, the question here is "why" - if the ship is wanted locally, it's wanted, whether I "know" this or not should be immaterial).

Unfortunately I wasn't videoing as I was playing in VR so I have no proof (for either myself or for FDev), but I'm 99% sure the scan was up. I had to circle an asteroid to get a bead on him, and while circling I was scanning him.

Anyway, salty? yes. Not because of the lost credits (I have 500MCr) but because it totally ruined the experience of the first time I went bounty hunting which took me nearly 2 evenings to get the 20 ships (no I'm not efficient lol). Could the game be improved in this aspect? IMHO yes, hence this post.

 

[Micha]

On the other hand if they didn't immediately go for a player with a 200 credit bounty...
- player A is hunting in a RES
- player B opens fire on player A
- player B gets 200 credit assault bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills player A and gets 6,000 credit murder bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills players C, D, E, F and G
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about

Easy - give out bigger bounties for shooting unwanted ships vs wanted ships (whether or not you scan them). And add a bonus bounty for shooting other players, ensuring player-killers are always near the top of the bounty heap.

Also "assault" and "kill" need to be differentiated - if I accidentally strafe the shields of a cop or trader who gets in my way, give me a fine. If I repeatedly shoot innocents within a time-limit, then convert that to a bounty. If I actually kill an innocent then a bigger bounty and immediate response.

Police should only start to actively hunt another ship if their bounty is above some threshold, or if they continue their crime -after- being warned to desist.

 

[RidingTheFlow]

If my scan didn't clear first how could I know that he was in the faction I was hunting? As for being "clean" a few lines above this is the same ship scanning other ships (including me) and trash-talking ("There is nothing worth my while here") - proving he's wanted.

I'm aware of scans having to clear first (but again, the question here is "why" - if the ship is wanted locally, it's wanted, whether I "know" this or not should be immaterial).

You sometimes may see a faction but not wanted status. I think they may be handled by separate server or server requests. Couple of times I've seen "unknown" instead of status for several seconds (while I've already seen everything else).

That just how ED law works - you don't have a right to shoot someone based on circumstantial evidence (or whatever other people know about them). If you do without hard proof (scanner giving you permission), you commit crime yourself.
They probably don't want more of bounty hunters start shooting more random people swearing they were *sure* they were wanted pirate because they were of right faction and were talking funny

 

[uliando]

On the other hand if they didn't immediately go for a player with a 200 credit bounty...
- player A is hunting in a RES
- player B opens fire on player A
- player B gets 200 credit assault bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills player A and gets 6,000 credit murder bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills players C, D, E, F and G
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about

WRONG! This is completely wrong mechanics!

should be this for NPC

- player A is hunting in a RES
- player B opens fire on NPC A
- player B gets 200 credit assault bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills NPC A and gets 6,000 credit murder bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills NPC C, D, E, F and G
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about

and for players

- player A is hunting in a RES
- player B opens fire on player A
- player B gets 200 credit assault bounty
- cops ignore player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about
- player B kills player A and gets 5 000 000cr credit murder bounty (rebuy cost of killed player+player gets 90% rebuy rebate if player B gets caght one day)
- cops send whole fleet after player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about and not worth their time anymore
- player B kills players C, D, E, F and G
- cops now get really dedicated bounty hunters on player B as pirates with 100,000Cr bounties are about that does not matter still

 

[metatheurgist]

If my scan didn't clear first how could I know that he was in the faction I was hunting? As for being "clean" a few lines above this is the same ship scanning other ships (including me) and trash-talking ("There is nothing worth my while here") - proving he's wanted.

I'm aware of scans having to clear first (but again, the question here is "why" - if the ship is wanted locally, it's wanted, whether I "know" this or not should be immaterial).

Unfortunately I wasn't videoing as I was playing in VR so I have no proof (for either myself or for FDev), but I'm 99% sure the scan was up. I had to circle an asteroid to get a bead on him, and while circling I was scanning him.

Anyway, salty? yes. Not because of the lost credits (I have 500MCr) but because it totally ruined the experience of the first time I went bounty hunting which took me nearly 2 evenings to get the 20 ships (no I'm not efficient lol). Could the game be improved in this aspect? IMHO yes, hence this post.

{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:57:44Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Caelas;", "From_Localised":"Caelas", "Message":"$Pirate_OnStartScanCargo01;", "Message_Localised":"I see all!", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:57:54Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Caelas;", "From_Localised":"Caelas", "Message":"$Pirate_OnNoCargoFound10;", "Message_Localised":"There's nothing worth my while here.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:57:54Z", "event":"Scanned", "ScanType":"Cargo" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:58:03Z", "event":"Music", "MusicTrack":"Combat_Dogfight" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:58:24Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Christian Kavanagh;", "From_Localised":"Christian Kavanagh", "Message":"$Pirate_OnDeclarePiracyAttack05;", "Message_Localised":"You have no chance now.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:58:54Z", "event":"Bounty", "Rewards":[ { "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Reward":64962 } ], "Target":"federation_dropship_mkii", "TotalReward":64962, "VictimFaction":"No Look Here Gang" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "From_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement05;", "Message_Localised":"Emergency reserve force deploying.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$ShipName_Police_Independent;", "From_Localised":"System Authority Vessel", "Message":"$Police_ArriveReinforcement01;", "Message_Localised":"Reinforcements incoming.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"ReceiveText", "From":"$npc_name_decorate:#name=Caelas;", "From_Localised":"Caelas", "Message":"$Pirate_OnDeclarePiracyAttack02;", "Message_Localised":"You choose death then. Very well.", "Channel":"npc" }
{ "timestamp":"2017-10-23T21:59:02Z", "event":"CommitCrime", "CrimeType":"assault", "Faction":"Consortium Pioneers", "Victim":"Caelas", "Bounty":200 }

He messaged you before he scanned you. When anyone messages you, you get half their scan information - name and faction, but not legal status. You probably saw the faction and started shooting before the legal scan finished. Yes, you knew he was a pirate, but that's not how the game works. The game requires you to get permission to kill him by completing the legal scan.

It's been discussed before that police should broadcast the status of any known pirates but nothing's been done about it. Until it is, you play the hand you're dealt.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

WRONG! This is completely wrong mechanics!

But it's what there is. Until Frontier change the bounty levels making the police go strictly for the highest bounty target would make them largely ignore PvP crimes.

The first problem with basing player kill bounties on the rebuy paid by the victim is that the ships least able to defend themselves against an attacking player have lower rebuys.

So you can shoot new Sidewinders all day long and have trouble getting even a million in bounty, for instance.

Similarly, within a ship class, blowing up an exploration Anaconda gets you a 5 million-ish bounty, while blowing up a combat Anaconda gets you a 40-million ish bounty - despite the combat Anaconda having much more opportunity to get away safely.

---

The second problem is that it makes station ramming attractive in big ships: take a Cutter with 1% hull, ram a cheapish ship near a station, so the Cutter dies. The victim gets a 50 million bounty, which the station immediately kills them for - as that's more spare cash than many players have, they can no longer pay their rebuy...; meanwhile the aggressor gets a 90% rebate on their 50 million rebuy, so only paid 5 million overall, which can be earned back in 10 minutes.

 

[uliando]

But it's what there is. Until Frontier change the bounty levels making the police go strictly for the highest bounty target would make them largely ignore PvP crimes.


The first problem with basing player kill bounties on the rebuy paid by the victim is that the ships least able to defend themselves against an attacking player have lower rebuys.

So you can shoot new Sidewinders all day long and have trouble getting even a million in bounty, for instance.

Similarly, within a ship class, blowing up an exploration Anaconda gets you a 5 million-ish bounty, while blowing up a combat Anaconda gets you a 40-million ish bounty - despite the combat Anaconda having much more opportunity to get away safely.

---

The second problem is that it makes station ramming attractive in big ships: take a Cutter with 1% hull, ram a cheapish ship near a station, so the Cutter dies. The victim gets a 50 million bounty, which the station immediately kills them for - as that's more spare cash than many players have, they can no longer pay their rebuy...; meanwhile the aggressor gets a 90% rebate on their 50 million rebuy, so only paid 5 million overall, which can be earned back in 10 minutes.

Provided that attacked have that amount of cash to pay as bounty. Certainly needs more tweaking. Well maybe that sidewinder should've stayed within speed limit.
Anyway maybe it could be extended to % hull damage dealt too. Like dealing last 1% of hull damage in SW would be 500k bounty which is still pretty much end of your start game.

Then again we could just set minimum 50% hull damage dealt for full penalty because in many cases accidents happen.

 

[Micha]

He messaged you before he scanned you. When anyone messages you, you get half their scan information - name and faction, but not legal status. You probably saw the faction and started shooting before the legal scan finished. Yes, you knew he was a pirate, but that's not how the game works. The game requires you to get permission to kill him by completing the legal scan.

It's been discussed before that police should broadcast the status of any known pirates but nothing's been done about it. Until it is, you play the hand you're dealt.

Ok, that's interesting. And that's -possibly- (I really need to get into the habit again of recording the last half-hour of gameplay, even when in VR. Performance be damned..) why I thought I had finished scanning him then before opening fire.

And yes, I know "it is what it is" at the moment and I have to deal with it. But the point of opening this thread wasn't to complain, but to (re)raise the issue that this is a gameplay mechanic which, IMHO, can and should be improved.

1. Fines for friendly fire; turn into bounties if you "accidentally" keep shooting a friendly (number of friendly-hits-per-timespan to determine whether fine increases or is converted to bounty)
2. No bounties (-mayyybe- a fine) if opening fire on a locally wanted ship - whether or not you've scanned them.
3. Perhaps a threshold bounty, below that you get a warning to leave and pay your fines, above you get attacked.
4. Police to prioritise on higher bounties, but not necessarily completely ignore lower bounties. Basically "hey, he just shop-lifted, after him men!!" should not happen while someone else is stabbing passer-by's.
5. Attacks against Players rated different to attacks against NPC's; player-attacks net a minimum bounty which puts them well into "shoot-on-sight" territory by the cops/other bounty hunters.
6. Karma - if you've just spent 2 hours shooting pirates, and then accidentally shoot another ship, that first gets counted against your karma

Just suggestions..