Possible Solution that both Traders and Pirates could agree.

[deathmagnet]

I have been wanting to post this thread for sometime. During the Summerland CG and the Wolf 406 CG I started to think there has to be a solution that both traders and pirates could agree to about the different disparities that are so commonly complained about.

Problem 1. When a pirate pulls over a trader the knee jerk reaction for all traders is to submit to the interdiction. This is because it gives them near instant cool down on the FSD so they can jump again unless..

Problem 2. The pirates have such overwhelming force they can shoot out the traders drives before the FSD cool down + charge. All dedicated trade vessels, Hauler, T6, T7, T9, are not only morbidly under shielded, but the hard points you would expect from something that would need to deploy defensive measure are terribly placed.

Here are some possible solutions:

Solution 1 Increase the FSD cool down for submitting and decrease the FSD cool down for fighting interdiction. I think they should be the same cool down regardless. I understand the logic to have being forced out of SC to cause your FSD drives to overheat and take longer to cool down but here is why I would change it.

If the FSD cool down was the same regardless of submitting or fighting interdiction it would encourage the traders to actually play the interdiction mini-game. If faced with the same cool down regardless, strategically your best option is to fight interdiction and hope to get away at that point. Also, if the trader does still decided to submit to avoid hull damage he does so knowing that he has to face the same cool down as if he just fought it. This will allow pirates (as well as pirate hunters for that matter) more time to actually be effective. I am thinking a 30 second cool down is reasonable.

Solution 2. Anything that is a slow lumbering hunk of metal that is caring vast amount of wealth would be a little better protected than the current trade vessel are. To put it simply upgrade the shields, hard points and placement of hard points. Any trade vessel in a pirating situation isn't going to be trying to keep its nose facing the pirate. They will typically be running. Move the hard points to better defensive positions on the vessel.

This was my argument on another thread:

"T7 only having 307 MJS of shield strength even when eqipped max boosters and max shield is ridiculous. Not to mention only having 168T of cargo at that point. Completely useless ship at that point.

A more realistic load out only provides 256 MJS of shield despite having A5 shields. The issue is in the initial base value given to the ship. A 31 million credit ship should not be brought to its knees by a 4-6 million credit Viper/Cobra rocking rail guns.

Same issues with the T9. 6A only provides 395 MJS shield. At 468T of cargo this is at least a realistic build but the shield value is stupid low. 7A shield with 404T is also acceptable but I am not sure 542 MJS is really enough to expect to survive. Sure you can go to 8A but really a 273 million credit ship that only runs 276T of cargo and still is only getting 710MJS shield even though you dropped 162 MILLION on shields?

You could fix the laughable shield values 1 of 2 ways or both. Give them more utility mounts to equip more shield boosters. I mean a T9 cant fit more than 4 utility mounts? REALLY? Its a huge ship. I think it can find space for 4 more. At least 2 . Same with T7. Its a big ship. I think you can find space to add 2 utility mounts.

The other way is to simply increase the base value of the shield stat for ship so the add ons are more effective.The T9 only starts with 240 base shield. T7 - 120. To compare that with its peers (size and relative cost). Clipper has base value 180, 60 more than the T7, even though its arguably the fastest ship in the game. Wouldn't the slower ship be packing more shields knowing they cant run? Federal Dropship 200. For the T9 the only comparison in price is with the Python getting a 260 base shield. In size you compare it to the Anaconda that gets a 350 base shield.

..... They do not need extra tonnage. They make plenty of money with the allotted tonnage they currently have. They just need to be able to protect themselves better because currently they are defenseless tin cans that carry vasts amounts of wealth, which also doesn't make sense."

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So, pirate and trader alike tell me what you think or if you have any suggestions. Please make them educated and polite. There are enough threads of dung flinging, that is not necessary here. In both pirate and trade meta's there are disparities that need to be fixed and with the history the devs have on listening to player input, we should be able to come up with reasonable solutions that both traders and pirates could agree.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

I couldn't agree more, even tho I'm a pirate. I think trader ships are too weak, like they're made of wet cardboard. They're so weak I occasionally kill them on accident, when trying to shoot out their drives or hatch.

I always thought trade ships should get 15% more shields and 30% more hull health than what they have now. They should also get 20% more jump range so they can equipment armor and proper defenses.

This of course would require a buff to pirates, increasing the submit cooldown, like you said, will be good. I'd also like to see limpets buffed, and shooting out the drives, stop an enemy ship.

Right now, limpets are useless. Shooting the drives out, while good at preventing a ship from jumping out, keeps the ship going in the same direction, at the same speed. Stopping a ship will allow limpets to be used more effectively and help for non lethal piracy.

 

[777Driver]

Typing on my phone, will try and keep it as brief as possible.

1. Despite what a lot of Pirates like to tell you, it is possible to escape in a T7/T9 as long you follow the correct escape procedure. I have done it plenty of times and I'm sure other experienced freighter cmdr's can back that up. You only need to survive the cooldown period, there are many ways to buy that time if you are smart.

Putting all that aside - The big issue is not the shield strength on these freighters, or even the ability to fight back. If a pirate in a FDL/Asp/Conda wants to kill you, you're dead unless you get the bleep out asap, doesn't matter how many shield cells or what type of generator you have onboard.

The big issue is the whole game mechanic - At the moment every system is like an Anarchy system, only difference between Fed/Imp space and pure Anarchy is the fact that you have to bribe the cops in policed systems. The fact that guy's can pirate in high security systems with no real repercussions is frankly a joke. Apparently the devs will update the legal system in 1.3

If I am hauling goods in a Heavy freighter between two policed systems, my only real danger should come when passing through anarchy space enroute, or the rare chance that a pirate dares to make a quick raid in policed system.

The devs could make it more appealing for traders to transport goods into low policed or anarchy systems, things like rare goods unique to anarchy systems, transportation of weapons/drugs/booze etc, high profit margins for freighters that are willing to take the risk and get past pirates.

High security should be just that, 'HIGH SECURITY' In just the same way we have tankers/freighters sailing through safe shipping lanes untouched, and passing through more dangerous areas in SE Asia and the waters off Somalia.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

High security should be just that, 'HIGH SECURITY' In just the same way we have tankers/freighters sailing through safe shipping lanes untouched, and passing through more dangerous areas in SE Asia and the waters off Somalia.

It's already like this. The police respond to assaults quicker, and interdict more often in high security systems. They're just bad at their jobs. When they do show up I can easily tank their damage and continue scooping. I don't even have to run.

Your idea also won't stop random player killings. Unless the cops jump in less than 20 seconds, they won't be around quick enough to stop you from being murdered, if that was a player's only goal.

 

[Troa Barton]

Copying this over from the buff the traders thread I really don't want to type all this out again.
im a big proponent of buffing both traders and pirates, I really think that this is the most interesting dynamic in the game or rather potentially the most dynamic.

begin copy pasta!

Trading ships do need to be buffed.
if you think of it like combat ships, cheaper and really good at one thing. Trader ships only benefit from one of these things their price. They do not outperform their multi role equivalents in most situations at least in terms of their intended role, trading.

the Type 6 is probably the closest to hitting the nail on the head it is cheap and fast with a great jump range making it ideal as a trader but the drawback of the type 6 is its survivability when outclassed by a larger faster ship such as the clipper or a high alpha Python. Giving the Type 6 the ability to outfit one class higher power plant and giving it one more utility mount would go a long way to help this. To round it out giving it one more class 5 slot would place it competitively in step with the asp. The asp would still technically be better but not by such a huge margin. All of these potential upgrades would also make the ship naturally more expensive after upgrading the ship.

the Type 7 by contrast needs a lot of work. This should be the tanker safer version of the T6. again allowing the fitting of a class 5 reactor and giving it one more utility slot. Allowing the fitting of a class 6 FSD, an additional class 6 cargo rack, upgrading two of the hardpoints to medium, and finally doubling the base shield value. The type 7 really needs a lot of work. Again this would put the python again in a better spot on paper but in practice this would have it to where the type 7 would stay relevant and competitive. Keeping its base price low while allowing it to be upgraded into a competitive setting. The added cargo would be less than the Python, the shield still weaker, but the jump range superior allowing more credits per hour than in the Python. The clipper would be a side grade in that it's speed is its selling point, the Python is firepower and outpost landing options. The T7's would be a low rebuy and more profit.

The type 9 is tricky because in certian situations it is better than the anaconda but it is barely better than the anaconda and monumentally weaker in every way. It's incredibly slow so you're not running from anyone, it can be mass locked by a lot of ships, even an asp. It's shields are pathetic in a real world loadout and even top shelf which you would never do they are terrible. The jump range is the biggest thorn in the type 9's side and is really the biggest issue with the ship.

So the type 9 would need a few things changed to really be a balanced and useful trader. To start this should be the traders ace in the hole for survival and high volume trading. Nothing insane it should not have anything on the conda in terms of shield strength it isn't a combat ship but it should be stronger than any other trader and substantial against any small time pirates. mass lock factor this is the largest, and heaviest ship currently in the game and it get mass locked by an asp, it should have the same mass lock factor as a federal dropship. It's armaments do little to stop Cobras let alone anything else, it is incredibly easy to kill so this should also be addressed. The type 9 should be the Flying Fortress of traders difficult to take down but still relatively weak, huge payload, with amazing range.

so specifically what to change? Again the ability to fit a class 7 reactor, three additional utility slots, one additional class 5 internal slot, a class 7 frame shift drive, match the dropship's mass lock value, upgrade the small weapons to medium and the lower hardpoint to a large, and double the base shield value. All of these upgrade potentials would definitively place it above the conda in terms of trading. The conda would still have much better defensive and offensive options, speed, maneuverability, and even jump range as a trader but the type 9 would be much better protected than it is now, have a comparable laden jump range, have the potential to escape most pirate ships, the cost of these additional upgrades makes it in line with that of the conda as well still cheaper but only good at one thing.

the addition of smuggling / salvaging would also breathe more life into the smaller ships even financially secure players. Ships like the hauler, adder, type 6 and 7 would be useful again. But that's a different topic.

trading ships need to have overhead for upgrades otherwise what's the point of running shields, armor, boosters, banks weapons, A class equipment? As they are now to even compare to their multi role brethren they need to sacrifice everything in order to be even slightly relevant and even then are outclassed by conservative multi role ships running weapons and shields. It should be the other way around. But it shouldn't be free either other than buffing the base shield value all of the changes proposed above come at financial cost, while they would be cheaper to get into much like the vulture their upgrade cost would be prohibitively expensive and not just a blanket buff with no cost.

 

[Troa Barton]

To add to the current discussion specifically pirates need a lot of love too. Currently it's really just a money or your life thing. Which I understand but most pirates don't want to or aren't able to do the middle step. Disabling and taking what they want.

The trader meanwhile has little choice in the matter if a well to do pirate pulls them over.

to make the dynamic interesting there needs to be more time to work. Most pirates don't have the time to disable you because of high wake jumps, logging, or fast cool down. So I agree the cool down needs to be longer so extra work and really the fun part has time to happen.

traders like to run but they don't like getting blown up again because of that time constraint if they do run they usually just kill them. Right now for the most part it's comply or die. There are a few examples of pirates that do take their time and know how to disable a ship without accidentally destroying it and I have a ton of respect for them. That's some real skill right there and my hat is off to you.

i would love to see more non lethal ways of engaging ships be them utilities like mass inhibitors or even something as simple as a harpoon there really aren't enough specialized tools to a pirate.

another thing is that for a pirate the only target is a player. Npc ships carry nothing worth any value for the most part and they don't put up much of a fight. I'm surprised the equality for solo crowd isn't up in arms about this. In my mind players with pirate aspirations should start with npcs and make a good racket at doing it but aspire to taking down real players that are difficult to take down with better equipped ships, better cargo, and that could put up a fight.

so yes buff the traders, buff the pirates, and while you're at it make smuggling a thing!

edit: perhaps you could buff limpets so that they extract cargo as abandoned and all cargo has a ten minute manifest that if the ship hauling it is reported as destroied by spawning in a station other than anarchy the cargo reverts to stolen despite how it was gained. Couple that with an increased cool down and killing the trader would be less desirable than a catch and release system.

 

[777Driver]

It's already like this. The police respond to assaults quicker, and interdict more often in high security systems. They're just bad at their jobs. When they do show up I can easily tank their damage and continue scooping. I don't even have to run.

Your idea also won't stop random player killings. Unless the cops jump in less than 20 seconds, they won't be around quick enough to stop you from being murdered, if that was a player's only goal.

I'm not talking about NPC police, traders don't care about NPC cops coming to rescue them. I am talking about the cost to pirates for attacking ships in policed states. You hear a lot of pirates say 'I never pay off my bounty's' I am yet to be interdicted by a wanted pirate after 6 months in open, they all appear clean.

If pirates operate in policed states they should be considered outlaws, not guy's that attack freighters and then blend back into normal society. Anarchy space should be pirate hunting grounds and areas that traders fear.

Piracy in this game is very poor right now, freighters get interdicted by pirates that have no real consequences for the attack, and the payout pirates get is peanuts compared to other roles in game. Smuggling and Piracy needs a lot of attention from the devs in the future.

Edit - What Troa describes is basically the Panther Clipper. As a T9 cmdr that always flew in open, I don't want to see any buffs, just sort out the damn legal system

 

[Noobdelux]

+1 for that... So true, id also wish they uprated the t9 to another 8 slot to choose between the extra cargo or an a8 shield together with what you already suggested minus the 5 slot

 

[Mr_Blastman]

1. 0% Hatch health = instant dump of all cargo onboard. Period.

2. More hull health is fine by me. That means I can shoot out engines and not accidentally kill the trader.

3. Longer combat log timer - 2 - 5 minutes. I've actually killed traders I suspected were trying to combat log. The 15 seconds just doesn't give us much time to take chances with it. However, they can always just pull the plug. Those get reported.

4. Equal FSD cooldown is a good thing. 30 - 60 seconds is fine to me.

5. Remove the wingman beacon trading exploit! This has to go! It's cheating, plain and simple.

6. Better limpets.

7. Bigger cargo scoops--ability to multi-scoop would be nice. A magnetic attachment would be an added bonus so the cargo is pulled towards it. This would speed things up.

8. Solo mode gains stay in solo mode. All money and ships made in solo mode can't be carried over to open mode. This would be tremendous.

9. AI rework so they carry cargo worth pirating! The main reason humans are pirated is it is the only way to get profitable cargo.

10. Shoot out engines = hard stop. No more constant inertia in one direction. If I blast out engines I still can't get the cargo... or much of it. However, if you do #1 it would help this a lot.

 

[777Driver]

+1 for that... So true, id also wish they uprated the t9 to another 8 slot to choose between the extra cargo or an a8 shield together with what you already suggested minus the 5 slot

Ok, let's look at this logically. You want an extra slot to install an A8 on a T9, A8 shield alone costs 40 million more than a Anaconda (167 million), not to mention it weighs 160T, the devs would then need to create a new FSD for the T9.

I don't think people are thinking this through properly, T9 is one of my favourite ships, you can't just simply buff something like that unless you change a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

I actually agree with most of what you said but the main problem from the traders point of view is not knowing if the interdictor is honourable pirate or a psycho looking for target practice.

My plan for interdictions (in my unarmed yet decently shielded Anaconda) is:
1) Submit to interdiction for faster FSD - your first problem
2) Boost and attempt to run

Should I loose shields I instantly give up and message that over comms, will happily give anything up to 100% of my cargo to a good pirate who can assert authority without killing. (I dislike the idea of someone pirating me without getting bounty so the 200Cr and loss of shield is kinda their test).
Usually the pirate wins if they masslock me and I win if they don't so it used to be a nice balance before Wings update, now its just a matter of how quick the pirates wing arrives.


If I knew that the person interdicting me didn't just want to use me as target practice then I'd haggle with the pirate for 10% cargo or whatever they could fit in their hold instead of bolting for supercruise straight away.

 

[Troa Barton]

I'm not talking about NPC police, traders don't care about NPC cops coming to rescue them. I am talking about the cost to pirates for attacking ships in policed states. You hear a lot of pirates say 'I never pay off my bounty's' I am yet to be interdicted by a wanted pirate after 6 months in open, they all appear clean.

If pirates operate in policed states they should be considered outlaws, not guy's that attack freighters and then blend back into normal society. Anarchy space should be pirate hunting grounds and areas that traders fear.

Piracy in this game is very poor right now, freighters get interdicted by pirates that have no real consequences for the attack, and the payout pirates get is peanuts compared to other roles in game. Smuggling and Piracy needs a lot of attention from the devs in the future.

Edit - What Troa describes is basically the Panther Clipper. As a T9 cmdr that always flew in open, I don't want to see any buffs, just sort out the damn legal system

I hope the Panther clipper is a lot better than that! Really my proposed buffs for the type 9 really doesn't make it much better at all. It's actually very conservative. The anaconda would still by all rights be a better ship in every way except trading just as it should be. The conda would still beat it in shields, armaments, and jump range. Just to put this in perspective a rare running asp can have better shields than a type 9..

You've changed my mind about the type 9 being worthless, you were right in that it does still have its uses but man they are barely there. And for the almost undetectable losses you take in running a conda you still have the best shields in the game, 969.75mj and 8 hardpoints while in a trading conda. That shield is only second to another conda even an all cannon FDL setup has less MJs.

i respect your opinion and your contributions to the forum so please take this as an honest argument.

 

[deathmagnet]

I would also recommend maybe the higher class interdictor cause higher FSD cool down and a class 2 maybe even a class 3 interdictor should never be able to pull over an Anaconda and a T9, especially a Panther Clipper when it arrives. It would give 2 reasons for pirates to equip higher class interdictors. 1 they get the longer cool down and 2 they may have to to even be able to pull the CMDR over.

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10. Shoot out engines = hard stop. No more constant inertia in one direction. If I blast out engines I still can't get the cargo... or much of it. However, if you do #1 it would help this a lot.

Suddenly stopping when your drives fail goes against physics. What you suggest is the way it used to be and didn't make since. I would not change it.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

I would also recommend maybe the higher class interdictor cause higher FSD cool down and a class 2 maybe even a class 3 interdictor should never be able to pull over an Anaconda and a T9, especially a Panther Clipper when it arrives. It would give 2 reasons for pirates to equip higher class interdictors. 1 they get the longer cool down and 2 they may have to to even be able to pull the CMDR over.

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Suddenly stopping when your drives fail goes against physics. What you suggest is the way it used to be and didn't make since. I would not change it.

Being an amateur hard science fiction writer, I can list many things in Elite that defy the laws of physics. The biggest of which is being able to instantly see who is jumping into a system from 500 light seconds away and track them realtime.

Sorry, that isn't possible. But we can do it. There's lots of problems with this game and in the interest of gameplay, having them stop would be nice--or instant hold dump per hatch break would be nice, too. The latter is more realistic.

 

[Jordan Cobalt]

Suddenly stopping when your drives fail goes against physics. What you suggest is the way it used to be and didn't make since. I would not change it.

Not necessarily, when you destroy a ships thrusters you're only taking out main ones. The ones responible for foward movement. The ships have little mini ones all over them. On the sides for lateral movement for example. On the type 6 you can even see little jets on the side, that slow you down, when you try to stop.

If the game was realistic you'd still be able to move in other directions besides foward if your drives go out. It's probable you'd still be able to stop and even go backwards, just not forward. Imo it would be no more unrealistic than that.

FD could explain it away as, the drives "rescue protocol" being activated. Once the main thrusters stop responding, the smaller thrusters slow you down and shut down to allow for rescue. Drifting through space isn't going to make it easy for other ships to get to you.

 

[fademist]

1. 0% Hatch health = instant dump of all cargo onboard. Period.

2. More hull health is fine by me. That means I can shoot out engines and not accidentally kill the trader.

3. Longer combat log timer - 2 - 5 minutes. I've actually killed traders I suspected were trying to combat log. The 15 seconds just doesn't give us much time to take chances with it. However, they can always just pull the plug. Those get reported.

4. Equal FSD cooldown is a good thing. 30 - 60 seconds is fine to me.

5. Remove the wingman beacon trading exploit! This has to go! It's cheating, plain and simple.

6. Better limpets.

7. Bigger cargo scoops--ability to multi-scoop would be nice. A magnetic attachment would be an added bonus so the cargo is pulled towards it. This would speed things up.

8. Solo mode gains stay in solo mode. All money and ships made in solo mode can't be carried over to open mode. This would be tremendous.

9. AI rework so they carry cargo worth pirating! The main reason humans are pirated is it is the only way to get profitable cargo.

10. Shoot out engines = hard stop. No more constant inertia in one direction. If I blast out engines I still can't get the cargo... or much of it. However, if you do #1 it would help this a lot.

too bad game mechanics desagree with you

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

1. 0% Hatch health = instant dump of all cargo onboard. Period.

2. More hull health is fine by me. That means I can shoot out engines and not accidentally kill the trader.

3. Longer combat log timer - 2 - 5 minutes. I've actually killed traders I suspected were trying to combat log. The 15 seconds just doesn't give us much time to take chances with it. However, they can always just pull the plug. Those get reported.

4. Equal FSD cooldown is a good thing. 30 - 60 seconds is fine to me.

5. Remove the wingman beacon trading exploit! This has to go! It's cheating, plain and simple.

6. Better limpets.

7. Bigger cargo scoops--ability to multi-scoop would be nice. A magnetic attachment would be an added bonus so the cargo is pulled towards it. This would speed things up.

8. Solo mode gains stay in solo mode. All money and ships made in solo mode can't be carried over to open mode. This would be tremendous.

9. AI rework so they carry cargo worth pirating! The main reason humans are pirated is it is the only way to get profitable cargo.

10. Shoot out engines = hard stop. No more constant inertia in one direction. If I blast out engines I still can't get the cargo... or much of it. However, if you do #1 it would help this a lot.

Absolutely agree on everything except point one: I do agree as soon as the hatch is completely busted, the trader should just start dropping cargo until they reenter SuperCruise, but not all at once. Imagine a T9 dropping everything? Damn the profits, imagine the lag! I think cargo should spill as it does now at 0% hatch HP, but 2.5x as fast and endlessly. Also, buff the cargo hatch HP.

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Being an amateur hard science fiction writer, I can list many things in Elite that defy the laws of physics. The biggest of which is being able to instantly see who is jumping into a system from 500 light seconds away and track them realtime.

Sorry, that isn't possible. But we can do it. There's lots of problems with this game and in the interest of gameplay, having them stop would be nice--or instant hold dump per hatch break would be nice, too. The latter is more realistic.

Don't forget that we have speed limits - in space!

 

[Flavourless]

The decision of traders to submit to interdiction is not a knee-jerk as described in the OP.
It is a necessity caused by the fundamental failure of the mini-game to function reliably (as reported by many users), which is by far the worst feature of E: D.
Trying to evade will most often result in a "successful" interdiction whatever the two pilots do. It is not based on skill, unfortunately.

Many traders thus have no option but to submit, and then choose whether to stand or run, because they will be cheated by the software otherwise.
Suggesting "improvements" based on the interdiction mini-game is quite pointless.

In my opinion, if FSD cooldown periods are to be lengthened, then the result of a successful indication should put more distance and variable aspects between the aggressor and its target, to allow for tactical manoeuvring by both parties.
To expect a victim to appear stationary and 3km directly in front of the interdictor lies very much on the easy-button side of desirable gameplay.

 

[zeq]

Here is an idea:

What if an interdictor that successfully pulls a ship out of FSD continues to tether it in that instance so long as the interdicted ship remains within a certain distance? Like say, a 5km FSD jam. Then a trader's options go from submit and boost away to try to escape interdiction, and failing that, either accept the pirate's demands, or distract/survive until police forces come to intervene. This also means with things like bounty hunting, where the targeted ship is not sluggishly slow, would become a little more interesting.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Absolutely agree on everything except point one: I do agree as soon as the hatch is completely busted, the trader should just start dropping cargo until they reenter SuperCruise, but not all at once. Imagine a T9 dropping everything? Damn the profits, imagine the lag! I think cargo should spill as it does now at 0% hatch HP, but 2.5x as fast and endlessly. Also, buff the cargo hatch HP.

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Don't forget that we have speed limits - in space!

Hmm, yeah. The 2.5x faster and endlessly wouldn't be so bad, either. I actually hate scooping out of one big pile. It's like tackling a rubix cube.