Powerplay Power Play is slowly dying....

[PeachSlices]

No Tier based forum in-game or ability for each faction to guide or elect real people leaders makes this just an opportunity to read the rules, go do the rules and then get back to the fun.

If we dont have spying, some much heavier more dangerous penalties for defection and a Tier 6 and 7 which would involve some extended time frames where humans can manage the estates, i.e. not turmoil the top systems and allow shrinkage of the somewhat ill advised systems, without being able to obfiscate the factional information in game from other players then it makes it very hard to justify "trying" to do something in a direction, if others can just block you in solo, or by simple not knowing each other, or being able to vote or communicate in-game.

The top Eshelon "Tier 8" where they can design some coherant plans, (economic, warfare or social) should be permanently elected by the faction itself and only eligable by extended service to your faction, it should be volunteer, term based and carry some serious benefits, for commiting to Elite Community by the developers.

Each of the top tiers 7 and 8 should be able to give orders or Mini Goals and you should be able to tie yourself to a control system or sign up to a mini faction goal and acheive merits, for attacking this, or running that propoganda, etc.

Also Solo is a problem, the chances are that a massive amount of people doing work are "hiding" in solo, doing uncounterable work. This is misaligned from the main mechanic of powerplay which is persistant and MMO. I would go as far as saying powerplay maps should only be available in Open and thats it, not even in "Private Groups".

Some of these ideas might have problems, but these ideas are all solutions to significant oversight and lack of the game developers ability to gather a "meta" with Power Play. It should be awesome but it isnt.

 

[Red Anders]

Would it? PP is a MMO feature. Faction A against faction B. Or did I get that concept wrong and it's really just another way to grind for credits and equipment? If it's faction A against faction B...shouldn't it be played on the same board?

Playing in solo or worse a private group is easier than in open. Specifically in systems that are disputed by two player factions. So what's the logical conclusion here? Play in solo or even better in a private group because the guys you play with can't bother you there and you can maximize your impact.

I can't see how you can get screwed if you can't play a multiplayer feature in solo.

If you do not like PvP - which is absolutely fine - don't play PP.

How often do we see threads in the forum where players complain that they get 'ganked'. And then it turns out they are pledged and in hostile space. What exactly did they expect?

Just to be clear I don't have any 'problem' (for want of a better word) with PVP per se, in fact prior to starting playing ED I played a game which had pretty much no content whatsoever other than PVP. Right now though, it's just not a strong motivator for me in this game. The recent changes to shield cells effectivness may change that actually because one of the main reasons for my disinterest was the fact that I've never been a fan of people being able to spam the equivalent of magical healing potions in spaceship-based combat, it bores me intensely and I've already had enough of it to last me a lifetime in other games.

As for Powerplay though it's not a 'multiplayer feature'. There are no exclusively multiplayer features in the game with the exception of CQC, any more than there are exclusively solo features. That's where you seem to be going wrong. What it is is 'content' and the entire ethos of this game is that content is there to be available for all players, in all game modes. Isn't it?

I'm going to pretend that you didn't suggest powerplay, which is merely a strategy game between multiple factions for economic and political dominance, is somehow an intrinsically MMO feature because if you've been gaming for as long as you say you will be able to name hundreds of games that didn't even have an online mode and yet were based within that concept. It's certainly true that these are common elements in MMOs but I haven't yet seen a single gamplay concept which has been newly developed in MMOs, the core concepts are always ones which have been tried and tested for years in PVE games before online gaming in the way we have it today was anything more than a science fiction pipe dream itself.

I do understand the point you're making and yes it clearly is easier for players to deal with certain aspects of powerplay when in a game mode with no Cmdrs trying to stop them, there's no arguing with that at all. However for players who prefer to play in solo, tackling the issue in the way that you suggested would obviously diminish the potential rewards available to those players, who are doing the same thing as you at the end of the day, playing thecontent providedby the game in a way that they are comfortable with.

It's not an easy situation to fix, I won't pretend otherwise. Really you'd have to start by looking at the original decision to implement it in ways that could be 'exploited' (using the word in it's strict English sense) because that is where this issue began. However when you consider that many of the backers of this game (I'm not a backer by the way) originally backed it on the basis that it would have a fully offline mode and already have some resentment about the fact that plan was shelved, I think moving to a point where part of the content developed to play out in the main game world (as opposed to CQC which is basically a standalone tournament) mode is either not available at all to players not playing in open, or is available but is implemented in such a way that participating in it would effectively be a waste of time for them, is very unlikely to prove a popular choice.

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/story/powerplay

Thats from FD. Notice dominate human-occupied space.... When you are playing solo, you've already dominated it so you win. When you play open, you actually get the core purpose.

'Human occupied space' refers to the systems that are occupied by human beings. Nothing more. Unless the Thargoids are in fact hanging around somewhere, that is every populated system in the game. So no, you haven't already 'won' anything have you because if you are playing the game as someone committed to the Federation, or to a power within that overall body (for example) you certainly do not 'dominate' all of space.

I'm sorry but you are reaching a little here in my opinion. Read that quote again:

Powerplay is an ongoing battle for interstellar conquest and control that touches and enhances every aspect of the Elite Dangerous experience. Ally yourself with a galactic Power, guide their strategy, earn valuable perks and bonuses, and dominate human-occupied space together. Every player's choices and actions can impact the balance of galactic power.

You're telling me that you can't name a game from the last 30 years that required you to ally yourself with a power and guide their strategy in order to win points and valuable prizes but didn't rely on online play? It was the premise of every single strategy game created prior to the current online gaming boom. It's a little ironic that you used a quote which says 'every player's choices can impact the balance of galactic power' to illustrate why you feel some player's choices should in fact remove them from being able to have any involvment whatsoever with that aspect of the game.

I've not quoted it because I don't want to make it look like I'm trying to tear your post apart bit by bit or anything, I accept what you said about not having some deep-rooted issue with people who do not want to be involved in pvp, but your paragraph about what we did in '92 and now amounting to a shifted baseline is perhaps what I disagree with. I don't believe that; a well-written game designed for solo offline play can be every bit as enjoyable now as it was when I was 11 - online play is not a requirement of any kind to me for a game to be entertaining. It's not a barrier of any kind either though, I'm just saying that I don't see either one as being inherently better or worse than the other, they are merely different yet equal experiences.

 

[PeachSlices]

It's not an easy situation to fix, I won't pretend otherwise. Really you'd have to start by looking at the original decision to implement it in ways that could be 'exploited' (using the word in it's strict English sense) because that is where this issue began. However when you consider that many of the backers of this game (I'm not a backer by the way) originally backed it on the basis that it would have a fully offline mode and already have some resentment about the fact that plan was shelved, I think moving to a point where part of the content developed to play out in the main game world (as opposed to CQC which is basically a standalone tournament) mode is either not available at all to players not playing in open, or is available but is implemented in such a way that participating in it would effectively be a waste of time for them, is very unlikely to prove a popular choice.

I was kinda agreeing with you until this paragraph and then your whole post went to pot, because what you said previously made sense. Let the "die hard fans" whine and , EVE is way more popular and has a super meta. Other games with a meta have huuuuge fan bases, League of Legends is a good example and I will come back to it.

Solo is not the same thing as Open, they are not doing the same thing, with the same associated risks but have the same reward. Solo is unfair, broken in respect to PP and makes people play with others less often. As you say, some people, a lot of people play for the associated meta of any given MMO, look at League of Legends for example, one of the most inane, and mind numbing concepts is completely blown away by the meta generated on the simple concepts of "no powerup is too uber" and a huge amount of variance in characters and roles.

Powerplay is a good example of something simple where the "meta" that would make the "mini game" of PP incredibly interesting, its just so close. Solo and private group and a lack of "direction" by real higher rank person or group are the cause of it, personally I am probably fine with some of the slightly off "rules", they are mostly fine. My main gripe would be with the lack of being able to manually release a system by some method that doesnt involve Turmoil. Real and ficticious organisations have never had no way of letting something go, "letting go" or "dropping" a system should be votable.

But once you start PP you quickly realise that everyone else realises that the strongest move in PP is to play in Solo. A lot of involved players realise it is shallow and it is shallow BECAUSE of the solo/private group inclusion. I am not sorry to say that avoiding making a better game on the opinion of people who play games but dont understand game design is just not right.

Quite, simply if the strongest move is to play on your own then a lot of players will quickly bore themselves.

If Solo and Private Group were excluded and some more features added this amazing concept would be epic. At the moment the more "play to win" thing you can do is play on your own, and that's just .

"A hard descision" whereby solo and private group is excluded from powerplay would be:

A) Hugely contraversial (Good)
B) Better.

Powerplay Solo is practically fapping when the whole thing could be a crazy great orgy.

Yes too far, but you get my point.

 

[Frag]

You're telling me that you can't name a game from the last 30 years that required you to ally yourself with a power and guide their strategy in order to win points and valuable prizes but didn't rely on online play? It was the premise of every single strategy game created prior to the current online gaming boom. It's a little ironic that you used a quote which says 'every player's choices can impact the balance of galactic power' to illustrate why you feel some player's choices should in fact remove them from being able to have any involvment whatsoever with that aspect of the game.

ED is touted as a

Elite Dangerous is the definitive massively multiplayer space epic. Take control of your own starship in an evolving, connected, cut-throat galaxy.

DEFINITIVE, MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER SPACE EPIC.. Now I call to this self proclaimed title since its just a massively single player game. I was sold on the MMO aspect of Elite, otherwise lets face it once you have unlimited funds, own all the ships you want, there really is nothing much to do that is a challenge in this game, without a challenge games get boring very quickly. If you disagree name one thing, other than a simple time sink of travelling to the centre of the galaxy? So Powerplay came out, and I thought to myself now I am ready to jump into Elite. I finished up playing my long time favorite game (D3 in Hardcore), said goodbye to my friends who dont play ED and embarked on the journey. After spending considerable time in 8+ weeks I have the funds I need, the ships I need and look to devour the end game content (ie Powerplay).. I was excited but you can imagine my let down.. there is bloody nothing here because this appealing aspect that made me pick up this game is broken. The war I was expecting to wage is as good as the first 6 months of WWII. NOTHING happens, absolutely nothing other than the simple mechanic of dropping something off or blowing up select ships in a select zone or system ... all NPC mind you. In other words its the same mechanics that were there already albeit its rewarded through a different system.

My expectation was that this will be huge epic battles, capital ships, many wings vs many wings trying to capture a point or prevent capture, massive fleets of cargo being protected by fighters... yet its all a stupid pipe dream because people who choose to play on their own, affect the big world. I dont know how you can defend breaking this by simply saying that this game can be played in solo. I never disagree with that, horses for courses but don't let that ruin it for the rest of the community. All the epic stories I read about this game in the forums etc, always centred about player interaction, about a big fight or being hunted down or running away... Never do I read about some epic NPC adventure.. as they dont exist.

I've not quoted it because I don't want to make it look like I'm trying to tear your post apart bit by bit or anything, I accept what you said about not having some deep-rooted issue with people who do not want to be involved in pvp, but your paragraph about what we did in '92 and now amounting to a shifted baseline is perhaps what I disagree with. I don't believe that; a well-written game designed for solo offline play can be every bit as enjoyable now as it was when I was 11 - online play is not a requirement of any kind to me for a game to be entertaining. It's not a barrier of any kind either though, I'm just saying that I don't see either one as being inherently better or worse than the other, they are merely different yet equal experiences.

I agree with you - its not my sausage is bigger than yours argument. Its simply that these two sausages need 2 plates rather than share the same plate (no idea why I used this analogy), BUT why the heck market ED as an MMO, and then hamstring it. Cool, people dont want MMO I get it, many people dont. IIRC, Elite was meant to offer offline solo and I do recall the uproar when if failed to deliver on this (for whatever reason?). Simply offer the single player experience, but dont let it ruin the MMO experience which it does - its an imbecile decision if you ask me. I mean how difficult would it be to just split it into two - this way people playing in Open will truly have open adventures and have some meaningful powerplay other than a bore it is now.

 

[Arjin]

You could always just ignore it. Or is that too much to ask of you?

I do ignore it, everyday, but saw the thread and felt the need to add my measly 2 cred's worth. I do hope it dies as a failed content attempt so that FD can stop wasting time and effort on a bad idea and use that time on creating or implementing better content.

 

[HUSKER222]

i agree with you. i honestly havent even been playing the game im so bored with it. i just sit here on the forums and pray to god the developers release an update that is life changing

 

[Carradin]

I do ignore it, everyday, but saw the thread and felt the need to add my measly 2 cred's worth. I do hope it dies as a failed content attempt so that FD can stop wasting time and effort on a bad idea and use that time on creating or implementing better content.

Perhaps you would care to explain just how they've been 'wasting time and effort' on powerplay since its initial release? Also, 'failed' is subjective. For all of its faults, quite many of us actually enjoy it. And if they actually had spent the time and effort you claim they have, many of those faults could have been dealt with by now, making for a much improved experience.

i agree with you. i honestly havent even been playing the game im so bored with it. i just sit here on the forums and pray to god the developers release an update that is life changing

That sounds more like you have a problem with the game in general rather than a problem with powerplay.

 

[NeilF]

Perhaps you would care to explain just how they've been 'wasting time and effort' on powerplay since its initial release? Also, 'failed' is subjective. For all of its faults, quite many of us actually enjoy it.

'quite many of us' is subjective

Going to be interesting to see what 'Son of Powerplay' is like when they invest their next batch of time and effort into it...

 

[Apos]

'quite many of us' is subjective

Going to be interesting to see what 'Son of Powerplay' is like when they invest their next batch of time and effort into it...

Well, there have been some rough numbers estimated and there is indeed quite a considerable number of players dedicated to it.

Just the weaponised expansions of Winters show that there are people that indeed enjoy both the process and the outcome of some actions. The direct conflict between the Feds and the Imps has revitalized PP for some. Mahon being the king of the hill in terms of both value and solidity is also a great source of enjoyment for the Mahonites.

The mechanics are a bit lackluster, but the end result can be satisfying.

But I'm also looking forward to what additions they have in the works. Most likely something designed to screw Mahon and help Arissa I guess.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

I'm definitely still involved in PowerPlay. I try maintaining my rating 5. The 50M credits a week has helped me get a fully kitted Anaconda and an Imperial Cutter. I could have made close to that money by trading but PowerPlay and specially the need to undermine to reach my rating has forced me to hone my combat skills. But I will admit that sometimes, it feels like a grind. I'll probably maintain my rating for a few cycles, then will probably drop to rating 4 at some point so that I can try other things, now that I'm a decent combat pilot

 

[Carradin]

'quite many of us' is subjective

I'm pledged to Mahon, and part of the Alliance Office of Statistics. We don't do "subjective" . We do data. If you follow that link, you'll see an analysis of player numbers in each power based on the amount of merits generated, and the objective result is that there's an probable minimum of just under 700 active players in powerplay (if everyone's rating 5), with a more likely number of around 2000 (assuming a more reasonable rating distribution).

And note that this is not counting rating-1 players, not counting undermining and opposition (which adds almost another 3000 to the number), nor takes into account all the people working behind the scenes on the background simulation (of which there are many indeed - for Mahon alone I'd hazard a guess that 60-70% of the organized effort is BGS work, which is invisible in these statistics).

It's a fair assumption that at least a good part of those players do it because they enjoy it (otherwise, why would they?), and so I feel justified in referring to the number as "quite many". Even disregarding all that, we have a large, active and growing teamspeak community all of whom enjoy powerplay, and we see the same from other powers.

 

[NeilF]

I'm definitely still involved in PowerPlay. I try maintaining my rating 5. The 50M credits a week has helped me get a fully kitted Anaconda and an Imperial Cutter. I could have made close to that money by trading but PowerPlay and specially the need to undermine to reach my rating has forced me to hone my combat skills. But I will admit that sometimes, it feels like a grind. I'll probably maintain my rating for a few cycles, then will probably drop to rating 4 at some point so that I can try other things, now that I'm a decent combat pilot

...and surely here's the other side of Powerplay "not working"... ie: Not only are people not playing as it's really designed - they're simply grinding doing the more efficient Merit grind they can - worse still, this is actually counter productive to people actually trying to play it due to huge undermining values being thrown randomly around.

I've not looked for a while, but are we still getting systems mutliples of times above 100 the Undermine target? ie: Showing individuals are just mindlessly farming merits rather than playing PP "constructively". This sort of comment implies it's this ethos is still very much alive!

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

This thread should be merged with the solo /online thread, because thats where tis thread is.
It is just as useless and could be deemed to junk of the decade.( Mods show junk Threads)
and a happy new year.
Cheers

 

[Bigglesof206]

By all means make PP PVP only - I speak as somebody who played the first 300 or so hours in open, then got fed up being ganked and has spent most of the next 300 in Solo/Mobius.....

BUT

stop the instancing that means you have to wing up to be sure of support when 3 enemy ships pull you out of SC - let's have EVERYONE on the same board, so when I fly my FAS in my PP home system I can see lots of other guys around at the same time, and I can go help fellow Hudson players who are being interdicted without having to spend the entire game session in a wing...cos I like to do a ranghe of different things when I play, and being in a wing stops me gadding about like a butterfly from missions to PP to CG to whatever.

Dave

PS - gotta laugh at the comments like 'of course you get ganked if you are in enemy territory'....much of PP requires you to be in enemy territory.....

 

[PeachSlices]

By all means make PP PVP only - I speak as somebody who played the first 300 or so hours in open, then got fed up being ganked and has spent most of the next 300 in Solo/Mobius.....

BUT

stop the instancing that means you have to wing up to be sure of support when 3 enemy ships pull you out of SC - let's have EVERYONE on the same board, so when I fly my FAS in my PP home system I can see lots of other guys around at the same time, and I can go help fellow Hudson players who are being interdicted without having to spend the entire game session in a wing...cos I like to do a ranghe of different things when I play, and being in a wing stops me gadding about like a butterfly from missions to PP to CG to whatever.

Dave

PS - gotta laugh at the comments like 'of course you get ganked if you are in enemy territory'....much of PP requires you to be in enemy territory.....

Some ability/structure for factional support (Voluntary Beacon or something), perhaps a local Factional Lobby using the wing system, but with more players and less features.

Some hard instance overflow mechanics whereby the one that is running in that space frame is the only one available in that system to other players would really make a lot of difference to game play, at the moment it is a shambles.

I had the fortune/misfortune of getting into some PvP earlier which started as around 12-15 players which after 10 mins or so quickly devolved into 2-3 players in each instance over 5 or 6 instances at least, it diluted the gameplay a lot playing pin the tail in the instance.

 

[Cmdr Bernard]

1. 5th column (as opposed to zombie grinders) are rapidly becoming the de facto method of destroying powers ability to function properly.
2. Preparing crappy systems through 5C requires huge resources to be thrown at stopping them entering expansion lists.
3. If they do enter expansion lists, the only way to stop them being 5C expanded is to....wait for it, reverse 5c OR deliberately enter yourself into turmoil.

I think this sums up one of the problems of PowerPlay nicely. I participate in PowerPlay since its release, and I expected epic struggles between Federation and Empire and neutral parties. In the beginning that was the case, but meanwhile my impression is that trying to counter the fifth colums eats up most time and resources for all legitimate players. No time and resources to act against your actual in-game opponents if all you do is looking how ridiculous systems get prepared and attempt to work against that.

You should not spent your time against members of your own faction, but yet that's what currently needs to be done. This is from a design perspective plain wrong. This is going so much against the original idea of PowerPlay it hurts and causes frustration and makes people abandon PowerPlay alltogether. I have that frustratioon myself watching how fifth column efforts destroy everything you worked for during previous weeks.
Let people work against other factions, not their own.

I personally like the original concept of PowerPlay very much and want to continue participating, but I have difficulties seeing a future for PowerPlay unless there is some way to address the fifth column issue and let players focus on the real goal instead again.

 

[Bigglesof206]

It needs a wipe and rethink. It's got too many variables in play from the start- it would remove one complication (at least) if each power prepped, undermined and fortified in the same way, so that attempts to fix an exploit for one power did it for all, instead of introducing a new unintended exploit for some other power.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if somebody at FD predicted the chaos and was told 'ah, but that's part of the master plan, it will develop in unforseen and exciting ways'.....

Arguably the need to inflict turmoil on oneself is merely an illustration of how, as powers develop, they become harder and harder to control - you could view 5C work etc as some sort of mechanism by which the powers have to evolve beyond merely capturing territory like a huge game of RISK. On the other hand, you could consider it the inevitable cluster, errr.... duck result of not thinking things out too well in the design phase. Which opinion is correct? That all rather depends on whether there IS a way to evolve to handle the problems we all face....I must say I am tending to think along the lines of the second opinion personally.

As a Hudson player it seems odd, to say the least, that having to battle our own 5C and merit grinders has dropped us to 5th place and another week of turmoil, despite doing everything pretty much right.

Dave

 

[Kigre]

What would I like implemented in the game?

If there is a civil war, for there to be fighting outside stations. You drop out of supercruise at a large station, only to find ships attacking each other, defending their station or trying to take it over. That would be cool.

After all, it's a Civil war, and traders will avoid the station, much like a real civil war. The station can attack opposing factions (like Capital Class ships) and the station can have damage or scarring from the war (You can have sparks in space on the station constructions, I'm sure you can think of an oxygen leak or something for there to be flames in space)

Would add another level to the game.

Yes yes, that would be cool... but dont forget... this game is supposed to run on the xbox as well...so dreaming of awesome effects and a "war" outside a station.... yeah, thats just it... a dream.

 

[CMDR Kantos Kan]

[snip!]

stop the instancing that means you have to wing up to be sure of support when 3 enemy ships pull you out of SC - let's have EVERYONE on the same board, so when I fly my FAS in my PP home system I can see lots of other guys around at the same time, and I can go help fellow Hudson players who are being interdicted without having to spend the entire game session in a wing...cos I like to do a ranghe of different things when I play, and being in a wing stops me gadding about like a butterfly from missions to PP to CG to whatever.

Dave

Because of the network architecture that Frontier has chosen, it will not be possible to have all players in the same instance.