Power Play NPC behaviour out of whack

Shurimal

Shurimal
Ian Doncaster said:
And what if you're bringing something else to the system for undermining purposes, or planning to extract something from the system
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And the Odyssey-specific undermining materials can't even be detected by ship scans, even when they're highly illegal and on-foot NPC-s will pile on you if they catch you with these.

In principle, you can wreak on-foot havoc in a system with no means for a ship scan to reveal any indicators of mischief. I have a bunch of unused Powerplay malware in my personal storage, and it's completely invisible to everyone unless I decide to put some into my suit pockets and go strolling around in a settlement somewhere🙃
 

Rubbernuke

Rubbernuke
Ian Doncaster said:
And what if you're bringing something else to the system for undermining purposes, or planning to extract something from the system

A probably incomplete list of things you can use for undermining if you can get them into the system:
- limpets (in at least five different ways, in some systems)
- low value cargo
- locally mined commodities
- any commodity usable in a donation mission (roughly: any commodity the system imports)
- credits
- ship-mounted sensors
- ship-mounted weapons
- an on-foot suit

I agree that if you can get into the system carrying none of those the Power Security should leave you alone.
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Or that PP NPCs and activities should be structured so that the NPC polices the activity and responds to you.

For example selling low value crud eventually gains the attention of NPCs either via a threshold triggering a hunter response, or that sec scans you and sees the cargo and goes "I hope you aren't peddling that here- if you do I'll kill you".

You can gate nearly everything legal with an NPC at some point, but the loop has to be designed rather than expect the current BGS framework to pick it up (as the devs seem to think).
 

gbjbaanb

gbjbaanb
Shurimal said:
Try that open murder in front of cops in a system not controlled by your power😉

You catch an enemy agent in your system, you have all the authority to apply deadly force. Remember, reinforcing a system brings stability and prosperity to the system (or at the very least, to the ruling class); but undermining destabilizes the society and provokes public discontent with the current governance. Cops will ignore you dealing with a troublemaker they can't because they're not obviously breaking any local laws (that's the covert backstabbing part). On a flip side, if you start shooting at opposing Powerplay agents in their system, you're now publicly commiting an obvious crime and the local cops have a reason/excuse to pile on you along with "their" PP agents even if you never intend to harm any locals who have nothing to do with PP.
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Let me reiterate the problem.
If I go to an enemy system, get shot at and return fire, I become wanted. Then I return to my own power's system - my own power will arrest me and put me in the rehab prison ship.

OK.

the whole idea of automatic conflict between powers may be acceptable to increase game fighting, but then the system of crime should not apply to these conflicts, or at least should be more nuanced than "you bad now". Even so, the conflict stuff shouldn't be so obvious.
 

Ian Doncaster

Ian Doncaster
Rubbernuke said:
Or that PP NPCs and activities should be structured so that the NPC polices the activity and responds to you.
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Sure. And there's a case on the balance side to say that Reinforcement vs Undermining is currently so skewed at a structural level that the Power NPCs should largely ignore undermining possibilities but aggressively try to prevent Reinforcement, just to shake things up a bit. (But that only makes sense to do if Frontier decide to rebalance Powerplay to encourage undermining more generally, which is a much bigger job)

Rubbernuke said:
but the loop has to be designed rather than expect the current BGS framework to pick it up
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Absolutely. Powerplay is currently the one place which acknowledges that "legal" and "in the interests of the local political forces" are completely independent and reacts accordingly, so any change needs to preserve that at least, however it scales things up.

gbjbaanb said:
Then I return to my own power's system - my own power will arrest me and put me in the rehab prison ship.
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Definitely the current crime system - for reasons much wider than Powerplay - does not work well with minor factions spread across tens or hundreds of star systems, with notoriety - and at least you don't get that for Powerplay kills! - being particularly messed up.

Making bounties specific to a faction+system pair rather than faction-wide and abolishing notoriety is probably the easiest-to-describe stopgap solution, but really the whole thing needs a ground-up rethink since it never fitted well with other aspects of Elite Dangerous and leads to all sorts of weird and absurd cases.
 
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Tifu

Tifu
gbjbaanb said:
Its not quite so clear within the game that this is the case. it might make it more obvious if the powers were generally neutral towards each other, except when they weren't.
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When you drop into a PP system that's not controlled by your power, the system tag is "HOSTILE" - it can't be clearer that. Every Power is at odds with each other.

I think you guys are seeing something that's not there.
 
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Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell
Ian Doncaster said:
Definitely the current crime system - for reasons much wider than Powerplay - does not work well with minor factions spread across tens or hundreds of star systems, with notoriety - and at least you don't get that for Powerplay kills! - being particularly messed up.

Making bounties specific to a faction+system pair rather than faction-wide and abolishing notoriety is probably the easiest-to-describe stopgap solution, but really the whole thing needs a ground-up rethink since it never fitted well with other aspects of Elite Dangerous and leads to all sorts of weird and absurd cases.
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The PP1 mode was working much better, with powerplay specific bounties and not messing up with local factions ones.

For what is worth, they'd should also totally revisit the ground PP activities (= data) as IMHO these have to be confined to powerplay specific settlements given the way they currently "interact" with the borked C&P.

This for 2 reasons (mainly):

1) removing a further link affecting local factions' BGS

2) creating "choke points" where attackers and defenders might have higher chances to compete
 

Dillon Fallon

Dillon Fallon
The biggest surprise about this whole thread is that a powerplay ship stuck around and attacked somewhere that wasn't in a power USS.

What I'd give for something to actually come find me instead of a 9:1 chance it's just going to run off.
 

Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell
Dillon Fallon said:
A whole settlement of enemy power NPCs that considers me hostile as soon as I enter the instance?

Chuck some Omnipol in there as a cherry on that cake and I'm there.
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Well defented of course, with some nice specific design... i.e. we should have ours like pirate coves, with skulls and bones, tons of empty canisters (looted) and ship wrecks everywhere. Whilst for example Aisling's one should be like a beauty saloon...
 

Shurimal

Shurimal
gbjbaanb said:
Let me reiterate the problem.
If I go to an enemy system, get shot at and return fire, I become wanted. Then I return to my own power's system - my own power will arrest me and put me in the rehab prison ship.
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No, your pledged power does not arrest you. The minor faction that happens to have jurisdiction in your "home system" as well as in the opposing power's system you caused some mischief and mayhem does. If you let them, that is—every seasoned black ops contractor knows how to wash off accumulated dirt😉 As to "Why?", well it's usual that the left hand of a governing body has no idea what the right hand does. All the bureaucrat A sees is that bureaucrat B has issued a "Wanted for murder" in a neghbouring star system and bureaucrats don't care about what actually happened, their job is to follow the rulebooks and SOP-s.

The only way to solve this would changing bounties to be faction and system specific, but that also creates a logical problem: if you shank someone in county A and flee to county B in the same country, why should the police in county B not care about the arrest warrant issued in county A?
 

gbjbaanb

gbjbaanb
Shurimal said:
No, your pledged power does not arrest you. The minor faction that happens to have jurisdiction in your "home system" as well as in the opposing power's system you caused some mischief and mayhem does. If you let them, that is—every seasoned black ops contractor knows how to wash off accumulated dirt😉 As to "Why?", well it's usual that the left hand of a governing body has no idea what the right hand does. All the bureaucrat A sees is that bureaucrat B has issued a "Wanted for murder" in a neghbouring star system and bureaucrats don't care about what actually happened, their job is to follow the rulebooks and SOP-s.

The only way to solve this would changing bounties to be faction and system specific, but that also creates a logical problem: if you shank someone in county A and flee to county B in the same country, why should the police in county B not care about the arrest warrant issued in county A?
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I never did - they attacked me, remember. So the system is set up that I'm wrong for everything - my crime, trespass? But its not, its geared for one sides war (though I still contend war betwen these factiosn is a broken mechanic, they're not at war). So if I get shot at in a hostile sector, the other guy should get the bounty? No, if not then I shouldn't get the bounty marker for shooting back. That should be more like it - just a private disgreement between factions, nothing for the cops to worry about.

Then you can have the shooting between followers. But I can shoot anyone in my power's sector with legal impunity, that's bizarre.
 

Shurimal

Shurimal
gbjbaanb said:
I never did - they attacked me, remember.
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Yes, they attacked you because you were an enemy agent trespassing in their territory. By shooting back you're just giving them more ammo to go after you. If you don't want to deal with a red soup all around you, bounties and all that, don't shoot back. Either be tanky enough, fast enough or stealthy enough to get out of the situation without giving everyone more excuses to pile upon you🙃

Also, rebuys are free for sufficiently levelled powerplayers. So stop worrying and enjoy the mayhem🤪
 

gbjbaanb

gbjbaanb
Shurimal said:
Yes, they attacked you because you were an enemy agent trespassing in their territory. By shooting back you're just giving them more ammo to go after you. If you don't want to deal with a red soup all around you, bounties and all that, don't shoot back. Either be tanky enough, fast enough or stealthy enough to get out of the situation without giving everyone more excuses to pile upon you🙃

Also, rebuys are free for sufficiently levelled powerplayers. So stop worrying and enjoy the mayhem🤪
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and I am an enemy in my own territory? Accept that it is a busted mechanic that needs looking at. Same applies to the non-enemy scavengers at odyssey settlements.
 

Shurimal

Shurimal
gbjbaanb said:
and I am an enemy in my own territory?
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In the eyes of the minor faction who's territory both your home system and the opforce system where you committed a murder, yes, you are. Because the minor faction doesn't care who exactly you killed in that other system, you committed an act that was illegal there, now you're wanted in all of the faction's jurisdictions, end of story. Bureaucrats don't care about all the intrications and nuances of your story--all they do is follow the book, by the numbers and with as little effort as possible. Believe me, I know from first-hand experiences IRL🙃

You cannot solve this problem without creating more new logical problems. Problems like "Why I can have bounties from a faction in one system, but the same faction doesn't care about them in the least in a neighbouring system?" or "Why don't local authorities in a PP aligned system care about mass murder of the controlling Power's ships in their system?". Killing PP ships on their home turf should have consequences, it shouldn't be a siloed off free-for-all kill-all-you-can merit buffet.
 

psyantologist

psyantologist
Dillon Fallon said:
The biggest surprise about this whole thread is that a powerplay ship stuck around and attacked somewhere that wasn't in a power USS.

What I'd give for something to actually come find me instead of a 9:1 chance it's just going to run off.
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and, so far, it only happened once, as in "a single time" and I've docked at stations hundreds if not thousands of times since the launch of pp2 ^^
 
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