Powerplay border sizes

Ian Doncaster · Jan 14, 2025

From a conversation in another thread ... how large are the various Power's border regions? Defined, for now, as the systems which if lost another Power could immediately attempt to Acquire - attacks on other systems are less likely to be motivated and would usually also suffer a significant Beyond Frontline Penalty.

System ownership is based on what I've been able to pull out of EDDN, so does underestimate the size of Powers a bit in general, especially the ones with positions more on the fringes of the bubble. This may or may not be underestimating the absolute size of the border regions, as they're at least more likely to be in regularly-travelled space, so probably is making the ratios higher than they really are for some powers.

Power	Border Systems	Total Tracked Systems	Border Fraction
Aisling Duval	463	1275	36%
Archon Delaine	163	508	32%
A. Lavigny-Duval	436	1186	37%
Denton Patreus	376	591	64%
Edmund Mahon	578	1249	46%
Felicia Winters	300	456	66%
Jerome Archer	558	657	85%
Li Yong-Rui	362	691	52%
Nakato Kaine	268	527	51%
Pranav Antal	354	647	55%
Yuri Grom	613	890	69%
Zemina Torval	380	410	93%

There's quite a range here, between the AAA Powers who have a supermajority of their systems away from immediate danger (though the size of the two Duval powers still puts them in 4th and 5th on absolute border size), through to Archer and Torval at the other end whose space is essentially all border.

shevek · Jan 14, 2025

What would be the percentage for just fortified/stronghold systems?

Ian Doncaster · Jan 14, 2025

Doesn't change the numbers all that much - Grom seems to be the most changed; the two Alliance powers are the only ones with a lower border ratio for F/S systems with everyone else (usually only slightly) higher.

Power	Border Fortified/Stronghold Systems	Total Tracked F/S Systems	Border Fraction
Aisling Duval	78	202	39%
Archon Delaine	31	92	34%
A. Lavigny-Duval	93	234	40%
Denton Patreus	49	76	64%
Edmund Mahon	57	151	38%
Felicia Winters	59	86	69%
Jerome Archer	130	146	89%
Li Yong-Rui	93	168	55%
Nakato Kaine	58	123	47%
Pranav Antal	62	107	58%
Yuri Grom	100	129	78%
Zemina Torval	75	79	95%

shevek · Jan 14, 2025

It doesn’t look good for Zemina Torval.

The numbers for Edmund Mahon are better than I expected considering the long intermingled border they have with Nakato Khaine.

DemiserofD · Jan 15, 2025

Yeah, Torval always seems to get the short end of the stick.

The real problem she has is that most of her territory is INSIDE the bubble, with almost zero on the outer edges. Only Archer really has the same sort of problem, by virtue of being centered around Sol, but at least he has good PR on his side.

The only thing on Torval's side is the ZDAYA pact - but that still won't actually help her grow, just protect some of her systems from getting captured in the first place.

Mordred115 · Jan 15, 2025

So what your saying is pledging Torval is basically powerplay on hardcore mode...

zimms · Jan 15, 2025

If Ian is taking requests (

), what would the data look like if we only count borders between different Superpower aligned Powers. I guess things would look better for Torval, but that probably wouldn't mean anything in practice as I think she's pretty much considered fair game by most CMDRs pledged to other Empire Powers.

Ian Doncaster · Jan 15, 2025

As a more general answer to that, how many of each power's Fortified/Stronghold systems are within Acquisition range of each other Power?

The number after the Power name is the total systems of that strength, then how many of those are targetable by each other power. Some systems may be targetable by multiple powers, of course.

There's a few interesting points here, too:
- Grom is the only power to be targetable by all 11 others
- Mahon comes close but while Mahon can target a Delaine system, Delaine can't yet retaliate (presumably a Mahon Stronghold facing a Delaine Fortified)
- the others with 10 potential attackers are of course Archer and Torval
- Kaine, tucked away on the fringes of the bubble, has the fewest neighbours - with Delaine having the second-fewest fronts.
- Archer and Torval are joined by Winters and Grom as the powers who have an average of >1 attacker per system.

Aisling Duval: 201
[Edmund Mahon] => 19
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 47
[Yuri Grom] => 16
[Zemina Torval] => 26
[Jerome Archer] => 6
[Denton Patreus] => 7
[Felicia Winters] => 15
[Nakato Kaine] => 8
[Li Yong-Rui] => 2

Archon Delaine: 92
[Yuri Grom] => 14
[Denton Patreus] => 6
[Pranav Antal] => 12
[Jerome Archer] => 1
[Zemina Torval] => 1
[Edmund Mahon] => 1

A. Lavigny-Duval: 235
[Denton Patreus] => 28
[Felicia Winters] => 18
[Aisling Duval] => 46
[Zemina Torval] => 25
[Edmund Mahon] => 8
[Yuri Grom] => 1
[Jerome Archer] => 1
[Li Yong-Rui] => 4

Denton Patreus: 75
[Yuri Grom] => 9
[Archon Delaine] => 7
[Zemina Torval] => 25
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 13
[Jerome Archer] => 7
[Li Yong-Rui] => 7
[Aisling Duval] => 4
[Felicia Winters] => 3
[Pranav Antal] => 3

Edmund Mahon: 153
[Nakato Kaine] => 13
[Felicia Winters] => 22
[Jerome Archer] => 20
[Yuri Grom] => 15
[Zemina Torval] => 5
[Li Yong-Rui] => 2
[Aisling Duval] => 8
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 3
[Denton Patreus] => 2
[Pranav Antal] => 2

Felicia Winters: 87
[Yuri Grom] => 7
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 17
[Edmund Mahon] => 20
[Zemina Torval] => 21
[Denton Patreus] => 7
[Aisling Duval] => 24
[Nakato Kaine] => 8
[Jerome Archer] => 7
[Li Yong-Rui] => 3

Jerome Archer: 147
[Edmund Mahon] => 51
[Zemina Torval] => 32
[Yuri Grom] => 62
[Aisling Duval] => 10
[Li Yong-Rui] => 56
[Archon Delaine] => 3
[Felicia Winters] => 11
[Pranav Antal] => 15
[Denton Patreus] => 4
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 2

Li Yong-Rui: 169
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 5
[Jerome Archer] => 48
[Zemina Torval] => 16
[Yuri Grom] => 8
[Denton Patreus] => 10
[Edmund Mahon] => 4
[Felicia Winters] => 4
[Pranav Antal] => 40

Nakato Kaine: 124
[Edmund Mahon] => 32
[Felicia Winters] => 17
[Aisling Duval] => 17
[Yuri Grom] => 12

Pranav Antal: 107
[Edmund Mahon] => 8
[Li Yong-Rui] => 21
[Jerome Archer] => 11
[Archon Delaine] => 21
[Yuri Grom] => 8
[Denton Patreus] => 4
[Zemina Torval] => 1

Yuri Grom: 129
[Archon Delaine] => 12
[Edmund Mahon] => 30
[Felicia Winters] => 5
[Aisling Duval] => 15
[Zemina Torval] => 21
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 1
[Jerome Archer] => 50
[Denton Patreus] => 7
[Pranav Antal] => 8
[Li Yong-Rui] => 10
[Nakato Kaine] => 7

Zemina Torval: 79
[Denton Patreus] => 29
[Aisling Duval] => 31
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 26
[Felicia Winters] => 18
[Yuri Grom] => 22
[Edmund Mahon] => 11
[Jerome Archer] => 22
[Li Yong-Rui] => 15
[Archon Delaine] => 2
[Pranav Antal] => 1

Extending to consider the softer borders where the Fortified/Stronghold systems can target Exploited systems of the other power, but not the other power's FS itself
- Mahon now does border everyone
- at the other end Kaine remains the least-bordered, but Antal now comes second rather than Delaine

Aisling Duval: 1285
[Edmund Mahon] => 70
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 269
[Yuri Grom] => 45
[Zemina Torval] => 110
[Nakato Kaine] => 72
[Felicia Winters] => 86
[Jerome Archer] => 12
[Denton Patreus] => 26
[Li Yong-Rui] => 11
[Archon Delaine] => 1

Archon Delaine: 512
[Pranav Antal] => 76
[Yuri Grom] => 79
[Zemina Torval] => 3
[Denton Patreus] => 17
[Jerome Archer] => 5
[Li Yong-Rui] => 1
[Edmund Mahon] => 2
[Aisling Duval] => 2

A. Lavigny-Duval: 1195
[Aisling Duval] => 229
[Denton Patreus] => 103
[Felicia Winters] => 84
[Yuri Grom] => 8
[Zemina Torval] => 149
[Jerome Archer] => 13
[Edmund Mahon] => 32
[Li Yong-Rui] => 10
[Nakato Kaine] => 3

Denton Patreus: 593
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 114
[Aisling Duval] => 24
[Li Yong-Rui] => 49
[Yuri Grom] => 64
[Jerome Archer] => 57
[Zemina Torval] => 189
[Archon Delaine] => 61
[Felicia Winters] => 26
[Pranav Antal] => 11

Edmund Mahon: 1267
[Felicia Winters] => 138
[Nakato Kaine] => 134
[Yuri Grom] => 166
[Aisling Duval] => 76
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 21
[Jerome Archer] => 182
[Li Yong-Rui] => 14
[Zemina Torval] => 50
[Pranav Antal] => 48
[Denton Patreus] => 11
[Archon Delaine] => 2

Felicia Winters: 463
[Yuri Grom] => 23
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 80
[Edmund Mahon] => 103
[Zemina Torval] => 83
[Aisling Duval] => 126
[Jerome Archer] => 19
[Denton Patreus] => 26
[Nakato Kaine] => 51
[Li Yong-Rui] => 17

Jerome Archer: 663
[Edmund Mahon] => 203
[Zemina Torval] => 126
[Yuri Grom] => 225
[Li Yong-Rui] => 265
[Aisling Duval] => 33
[Archon Delaine] => 10
[Felicia Winters] => 53
[Pranav Antal] => 93
[Denton Patreus] => 21
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 6

Li Yong-Rui: 696
[Pranav Antal] => 160
[Jerome Archer] => 158
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 22
[Zemina Torval] => 58
[Yuri Grom] => 19
[Edmund Mahon] => 13
[Felicia Winters] => 17
[Denton Patreus] => 31
[Aisling Duval] => 11
[Archon Delaine] => 1

Nakato Kaine: 529
[Edmund Mahon] => 140
[Felicia Winters] => 72
[Yuri Grom] => 58
[Aisling Duval] => 68
[Zemina Torval] => 5
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 2

Pranav Antal: 656
[Edmund Mahon] => 32
[Jerome Archer] => 85
[Li Yong-Rui] => 171
[Archon Delaine] => 100
[Yuri Grom] => 39
[Zemina Torval] => 3
[Denton Patreus] => 13

Yuri Grom: 893
[Aisling Duval] => 70
[Jerome Archer] => 214
[Zemina Torval] => 105
[Edmund Mahon] => 201
[Archon Delaine] => 76
[Felicia Winters] => 15
[Pranav Antal] => 87
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 4
[Denton Patreus] => 25
[Li Yong-Rui] => 28
[Nakato Kaine] => 69

Zemina Torval: 411
[Jerome Archer] => 82
[Edmund Mahon] => 59
[Felicia Winters] => 84
[Aisling Duval] => 158
[Yuri Grom] => 116
[Li Yong-Rui] => 47
[Denton Patreus] => 119
[A. Lavigny-Duval] => 123
[Archon Delaine] => 5
[Pranav Antal] => 4

Rubbernuke · Jan 15, 2025

Mahon now does border everyone

If you eat all the pies, eventually the waistband touches all others.

Disemboweled Ego · Jan 15, 2025

This is one of those things best visualized in a map, it's not super hard to do. Here's an example I cooked up quickly from old pp data https://disgo.pages.dev/powerplay (months old), but the web implementation of the tools I'm using is lacking some key features I'd need for the map and I'm not making an UI for that using javascript.

[VR] Bulbulunufus · Jan 17, 2025

The Winters and Torval stats seem to say something about how the Empire consciously used Torval as a weapon against Winters in PP1.0. This was not done for Torval's benefit, but as a way for other Empire powers to cripple Winters without any risk to themselves. One could argue they're doing the same with Kaine currently.

Ian Doncaster · Jan 17, 2025

[VR] Bulbulunufus said:
One could argue they're doing the same with Kaine currently.

Though the difference this time is that if ZYADANE holds up as a coalition, Kaine only has one remaining target, and does directly benefit from attacking Winters' position.

It's highly unsporting and boring play, certainly, but the attacks on Winters territory aren't themselves bad moves for Kaine. Put another way, my disagreement with the organised Kaine supporters is not that they're attacking Asetsi, it's that:
- they've come up with a bizarrely complicated excuse to attack Asetsi when "it's right there next to Tionisla" should be all that's needed
- they're therefore not also attacking Leesti and the rest of Mahon's Old Worlds position.

Kryxix · Jan 17, 2025

Ian Doncaster said:
Though the difference this time is that if ZYADANE holds up as a coalition, Kaine only has one remaining target, and does directly benefit from attacking Winters' position.

It's highly unsporting and boring play, certainly, but the attacks on Winters territory aren't themselves bad moves for Kaine. Put another way, my disagreement with the organised Kaine supporters is not that they're attacking Asetsi, it's that:
- they've come up with a bizarrely complicated excuse to attack Asetsi when "it's right there next to Tionisla" should be all that's needed
- they're therefore not also attacking Leesti and the rest of Mahon's Old Worlds position.

I have a strong feeling about FDev will change this soon, and will bring in contents about a War between Kaine and Mahon, either with a new storyline or a serie of CGs or other triggering things. This would bring in more players to change the "frozen" state of the Alliance to make powerplay alive again, with players not just from the participating sides.

[VR] Bulbulunufus · Jan 17, 2025

Ian Doncaster said:
Though the difference this time is that if ZYADANE holds up as a coalition, Kaine only has one remaining target, and does directly benefit from attacking Winters' position.

It's highly unsporting and boring play, certainly, but the attacks on Winters territory aren't themselves bad moves for Kaine. Put another way, my disagreement with the organised Kaine supporters is not that they're attacking Asetsi, it's that:
- they've come up with a bizarrely complicated excuse to attack Asetsi when "it's right there next to Tionisla" should be all that's needed
- they're therefore not also attacking Leesti and the rest of Mahon's Old Worlds position.

Well, my issues with it are that leadership there was populated, before PP2.0 even dropped, with ZYADA leaders that were parachuted in, and others, all of whom were implicated closely in the mass and catastrophic use of a "5C" collusion exploit against Hudson 3 years ago, without which the border stats above would look very different by the way, and the exodus of ZYADA and "imperial orbit" Cmdrs into the power in general. The real issue being that they simply bat away the shocking optics of all that, and expect us to lap up the "complicated excuse" you mention as a reason why, once they have what they want (they expected us to simply surrender that bubble), they won't find some other "complicated excuse" to move on to the next attack. Forget the implied deceit, the disservice that this does to the constituency in the Kaine player base who honestly were looking for something fresh and new (these are words I keep hearing from the disillusioned), and feel they find just another convenient way of funneling human resource into attacking the Feds, is another thing that would cause any leadership worth their salt to do some self-reflection, you might think. We left them time to sort out these optics and kept neutral stance, during which they simply escalated attacks against us and acquisitions into our borders. Only then did they, impolitely, ask for concessions from us. The only concession they deserved at that point, was finger shaped XD.

Ian Doncaster · Jan 17, 2025

You don't need to convince me that the issue I instantly quit the Kaine discord over is a problem.
(And similarly, no need to convince me that your attempts to hold Asetsi and weaken nearby Kaine positions are justified. It's currently your system, of course you should!)

There are plenty of Grom and Duval systems I could probably sneak an attack through on, but the problem then is that it'd be two or three weeks of solid effort to drop the system, and three times that to acquire it for Kaine, all of which would be stopped easily if anyone on the other side noticed. All of Mahon's interesting targets are the Old Worlds with a Very High SSP which makes them doubly tedious and impossible to sneak an attack on anyway. And without escape pods active, my preferred undermining method loses about half its efficiency as well. So I'm mostly sitting things out nowadays hoping something changes on the game balance side to make undermining more interesting [1].

(And I certainly lack the time and more importantly charisma to put together a rival Kaine group which will actually fight non-Federal Powers)

[1] With, of course, the obvious problem that anything which made undermining something I could practically do outside very special cases would just let ZYADANE destroy the Federal position even more. Maybe an effective 12-way truce as everyone eventually just stares at each other's Stronghold walls, decides it's too much effort, and goes off to acquire newly colonised systems instead is the best that can be hoped for. The pace of colonisation is likely to exceed the pace of reinforcement so there'll always be something to do.

Rubbernuke · Jan 17, 2025

Ian Doncaster said:
You don't need to convince me that the issue I instantly quit the Kaine discord over is a problem.
(And similarly, no need to convince me that your attempts to hold Asetsi and weaken nearby Kaine positions are justified. It's currently your system, of course you should!)

There are plenty of Grom and Duval systems I could probably sneak an attack through on, but the problem then is that it'd be two or three weeks of solid effort to drop the system, and three times that to acquire it for Kaine, all of which would be stopped easily if anyone on the other side noticed. All of Mahon's interesting targets are the Old Worlds with a Very High SSP which makes them doubly tedious and impossible to sneak an attack on anyway. And without escape pods active, my preferred undermining method loses about half its efficiency as well. So I'm mostly sitting things out nowadays hoping something changes on the game balance side to make undermining more interesting [1].

(And I certainly lack the time and more importantly charisma to put together a rival Kaine group which will actually fight non-Federal Powers)

[1] With, of course, the obvious problem that anything which made undermining something I could practically do outside very special cases would just let ZYADANE destroy the Federal position even more. Maybe an effective 12-way truce as everyone eventually just stares at each other's Stronghold walls, decides it's too much effort, and goes off to acquire newly colonised systems instead is the best that can be hoped for. The pace of colonisation is likely to exceed the pace of reinforcement so there'll always be something to do.

Its why I hope in vain FD finally join the dots and make murder the best way to UM given its already heavily punished downsides- so no wall is too much to break if you are willing to take the heat for it.

Rebel Yell · Jan 17, 2025

Ian Doncaster said:
From a conversation in another thread ... how large are the various Power's border regions? Defined, for now, as the systems which if lost another Power could immediately attempt to Acquire - attacks on other systems are less likely to be motivated and would usually also suffer a significant Beyond Frontline Penalty.

System ownership is based on what I've been able to pull out of EDDN, so does underestimate the size of Powers a bit in general, especially the ones with positions more on the fringes of the bubble. This may or may not be underestimating the absolute size of the border regions, as they're at least more likely to be in regularly-travelled space, so probably is making the ratios higher than they really are for some powers.

Power
Border Systems
Total Tracked Systems
Border Fraction
Aisling Duval
463
1275
36%
Archon Delaine
163
508
32%
A. Lavigny-Duval
436
1186
37%
Denton Patreus
376
591
64%
Edmund Mahon
578
1249
46%
Felicia Winters
300
456
66%
Jerome Archer
558
657
85%
Li Yong-Rui
362
691
52%
Nakato Kaine
268
527
51%
Pranav Antal
354
647
55%
Yuri Grom
613
890
69%
Zemina Torval
380
410
93%

There's quite a range here, between the AAA Powers who have a supermajority of their systems away from immediate danger (though the size of the two Duval powers still puts them in 4th and 5th on absolute border size), through to Archer and Torval at the other end whose space is essentially all border.

That's very interesting... I believe the situation is logically what most of the powers (except Kaine) inherited from PP1. Who was around at the last PP1 Cycles can remeber how every power rushed to grab as many systems as possible (piggybacked by FDEV's delays in releasing the new framework).

I am happy to see that Delaine is at the bottom of the scale... that's not a case, it's intentional, as the last turmoils we had in PP1 (years ago) helped us to scrap weak links and today we'd have to manage more "frontier" systems than the ones Delaine has on the lines.

Rebel Yell · Jan 17, 2025

Mordred115 said:
So what your saying is pledging Torval is basically powerplay on hardcore mode...

That's what Zyada left to the Granny (unfortunately).

Neilski · Jan 17, 2025

For those of us who've been away for a while, is there a thread with a bit of context around this stuff, and the meaning of ZYADA & ZYADANE? (I suspected that the non-Federal powers are probably represented by the letters in the second and the Imperials in the first but that doesn't work cos Yuri isn't Imperial...)

Ian Doncaster · Jan 17, 2025

ZYADA: long-standing coalition between various player groups pledged to the four Imperial powers and also Yuri Grom
ZYADANE: my own term, extending the naming scheme, for the inclusion of many groups pledged to the two Alliance powers in this mutual non-hostility between groups.
and also commonly used
FUC: "Federal United Command" - the similar non-hostility and cooperation between the two Federal powers against the above seven.