Powerplay: Ideas from the devs - Feedback wanted! #2

Thanks for providing an update.

Question: why can't we have a player conflict over a system to sort out who owns it? More like a battle royal, 15 merits for each enemy ship killed. I would really enjoy this.

I really would like to see more direct contests between players over a system.

At the moment I am fighting against ghosts.
 
Probably because the BGS never, ever worked correctly and still doesn't. :p
Which has caused quite a few players I used to fly with to burn out since every effort we made was always rebuffed by the BGS, with random influence fluctuations, Faction Statuses not triggering correctly, winning wars only to have the spoils of victory (ownership of a station) given to the losing side, and so on and so forth.
There was a resurge of activity when PP came out, but the fact that the BGS was still not fixed and PP is a completely separated thing as you and other posters in this thread are pointing out as a bad design element, contributed to even more players that I know losing interest. :(

It's not completely separate thing. It has limited, yet very visible effect on systems, like trading restrictions. BGS has bugs, but it certainly works.
 
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Thanks for providing an update.

Question: why can't we have a player conflict over a system to sort out who owns it? More like a battle royal, 15 merits for each enemy ship killed. I would really enjoy this.

I really would like to see more direct contests between players over a system.

At the moment I am fighting against ghosts.


Because the goal of Elite: Dangerous is to provide PvP actions between groups whose resolution is decided by PvE trophy collecting. Re-read that statement carefully....and take some time to come to full terms with the idea. PvP pew pew is only for Role Play purposes to support the underlying PvE trophy collection. There are, and will be, no changes to this idea...ever.
 
Hmmm. But I think more serious large scale PvP between the groups is the way to go......


It is good fun too.

Edit: Say give the option to the two (or how every many powers) concerned - "How do you want to resolve this - grinding away for the week or a two hour battle, the ones with the most kills wins."

It could be PvP or PvE, just done on the amount of kills in a two hour period on a Friday night.

2nd Edit: Put up the stats afterwards too: NPC kills, Player on player kills, NPC kills of players etc.

3rd edit: I would sell my grandmother for this.....
 
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I think I'd just like to see Powerplay politics reflected visually in the game a bit more. Different station interior detail and audio depending on ownership and system states etc...

It feels too abstract and removed from what you're seeing through your windscreen.

This, for me nails it. system status controling power, type of gov, economy and state of the system (war/boom/famine/etc...) should be felt by the players both in station (rather straitforward) and in SC (harder).

Powerplay Galnet updates would be better off in the PP tab IMO. The expansion blocked when it would drop the power to negative CC is very good.
Changes proposed go in the right direction, but I feel there is a long way to go.


Then, PP feels very rough and grindy.

  • Merit from missions, similar to B&B ones, tied to faction Ethos. Better still, tierd/branching missions linked to PP actions (prep/exp/fort/undermine)
  • Mini-CG events chosen from a list at each cycle, faction flavoured. (eg. Sirius : Exploration CG (gives access to Teraf. CG), Terraforming CG (give new system to expand to...), Hostile Takeover (flip sys gov to Sirius Corp))
  • PP Faction Coms Tools
  • PP Diplomacy Tools. I mean, at the moment PP makes no sense diplomacy wise and all is done by roleplay using 3rd party Tools. Kind of a shame really.
  • At the moment, PP invectize playing solo as it is easier/safer. It feels like capture the flag with two teams that do not interact directly. Trying to actively defend undermined systems by patroling is a waste of time.
  • Convoys need to be tougher nuts, PP security should have teeth and CZ should follow standard voucher pay structure in terms of merits.

In the longer run, I think a lot of meat could be put on the prepare/expand/fortifiy/undermine bones.
 
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Aside from PowerPlay mechanics, I have a problem with how it is implemented in the game. As (probably) have been said, PowerPlay feels disconnected from the rest of the game in my opinion.

PowerPlayers should have regional offices/etc... that work similar to minor factions. In control systems, these "minor offices" should rise to power, and change the allegiance of the system itself. These are just two suggestions I can give you to make PowerPlay a part of the rest of the game.
 
I still think that a "converted" system would be, during the initial period be in turmoil and unable to be producing income for the power. I also think that one of the major things lacking in PP is teamwork within the faction that actually makes you feel like you are bettering your environment.

You want to slow down power expansion then break expansion down into stages that build a system up into something special. For example

Stage 1. Undermining / Preparation
Stage 2. Expansion
Stage 3. Stabilising - This might involve Power based CG involving medical trade, mopping up resistance etc etc
Stage 4. Recovery - Again this might involve trade CG for raw materials including some mining missions etc etc
Stage 5. Growth - At this point it can be decided perhaps what "tech" level the system is to be, the power might need a high tech system near the front line for equipment etc etc and obviously the higher level required then the higher player input is needed.

you get the picture

Only at Stage 4 should the system start to make money, until then it should run at a loss or be rated zero but lets face it these are systems that inhabit billions of people initial disruption would be quite severe imho.

I would also do away with exploited systems, they just muddy the water. Systems should be either controlled and earning income or not controlled.
 
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I will paste what I posted on reddit some time ago because it somes up my feelings about powerplay:

I kind of expected the powerplay missions to be more like what you could catch a glimpse of in the trailer.


I would like if there were multiple different missions chosen from a mission pool. Each combination of power, action (fortify/undermine/expand) and government, maybe special status too in target system would have a few mission types available and one of those types would be selected at random each week.

So one time we would be supplying medicines to a station, other time we would be supplying weapons to support our side in local war, on the next cycle we would be delivering food. It would be our job to find sources of the goods and we would probably actually exploit the exploited systems in order to meet the demand. We would do covert operations, smuggle, assassinate, kill security force or get rid of criminals.

I wish there were more mission types added - escorting convoys, delivering important passengers, destroying convoys, capturing passengers.


I wish doing missions for current leading faction in system would also add some merits for your power or at least give you a chance to take merits instead of credits (quid pro quo style), I wish the same applied to combat zones. In fact instead of grinding just your own reputation for the local faction you would be working on your powers reputation.
 
+1 to ElectricZ for this post.

Look at what dominates the first three pages of this thread. I know, not easy having your baby criticized, but this was with respect. Don't ignore the tough questions!

I love ED, FD and the Devs that have been working hard on the game; respect for that! I am looking forward to all future goodness. *I bought more skins a few days ago to support FD development.

PP has ginormous potential and really livens up the newsfeeds, map and politics. I would probably play it if it were based on this post's ideas of organic growth from the existing faction system. Mostly because I might not even know I was playing it but would still be contributing!

Probably the players will contradict the developer design only once a year because FD is that good. But to me, PP was like POI hopping vs. Super Cruise; I think the DDF would have pointed FD to do something like ElectricZ posts instead of original design.

Final thought- I disagree with those wanting Credits instead of Merits. Would put too much focus back on just one part of the game. Rank, medals. lifetime as well as time-limited achievements which unlock some benefits which cannot be bought in game.

Why wasn't PowerPlay integrated with the existing Background Simulation?

There was already a system in place where CMDRs could take missions from the bulletin board to earn credit and reputation and affect a faction's standing in a local system. Special missions already exist to rank up in the Federation and Empire. In PP, instead of credits and reputation, you work for Merits and Command Capital which have no direct link to the existing universe. PP missions involve hauling specialized PP cargo rather than existing commodities to certain designated systems on an arbitrary clock. Combat missions also happen in certain designated systems. Faction reputation and naval rank in the existing universe have no bearing on PowerPlay powers and vice-versa: a Baron in the Empire can freely pledge with a Federation PP faction. Doing missions for a Federation Faction does nothing for your Federation reputation, for example, nor does your existing rank in a navy help your standing in a PowerPlay faction. Certainly a Baron in the Empire should have extra pull with Duval, Torval, or Patreus?

To make matters worse, concentrating on PowerPlay to prevent merit decay takes away freedom to "play as you want." If you want to rank up in power play, you can't trade, smuggle, explore, or bounty hunt outside PowerPlay approved conflict zones. You can either earn credits or merits, not both. The most appealing thing ED has for me is to make me feel like I'm a lone-wolf space pilot walking the line between law and lawlessness, acting as a protector in some systems, smuggling to make a few extra credits, exploring... I have to give all that up when I pledge to a Power, when in reality all of these activities should count toward the power to which I'm pledged.

PowerPlay should provide even more and varied mission types using the existing mechanics rather than haul PowerPlay widgets from point A to point B. For example: Fly to an enemy system and use your discovery scanner to map out new enemy outposts or manufacturing centers. Locate the position of an enemy supply convoy and call in a strike mission to destroy it. Source a full load of weapons to bring to a colony under attack by an enemy faction. Fly deep behind enemy lines to assassinate an important figure in the rival faction's regime. Smuggle a load of spies or surveillance equipment to an enemy outpost. Deliver an envoy to a contested system to increase your faction's reputation. And when doing all of these, don't get scanned -- or enemy faction ships will come out of the woodwork to stop you.

PowerPlay is a separate game from Elite Dangerous. I looked forward to PP because I thought it would expand on the existing game mechanics but it added a separate layer. The fact that it can be ignored completely might seem like a good thing, but how can the political and military state of the galaxy be tied to mechanics that can simply be ignored?

For me, PowerPlay would have been an outstanding addition had it been integrated into the game, awarding credits and ranks based on the actions I take while playing Elite: Dangerous... Instead, as it stands I have to put Elite aside to play PowerPlay.

Are there plans to integrate the two together?
 
Thank you so much, especially for the formula! The transparency is greatly appreciated.

For your next post, I'd like to hear your teams thoughts (and formulas) for how Powerplay will interact with minor factions and the background sim.
 
Reward issue:
The best "rewards" from powers actually affect everyone, not just the members. Cheaper slaves, higher bounty payouts and so forth, you can cash in on all of that if you're unpledged or even pledged to a hostile power
Rating 4 literally has a line that says "no reward".
Monetary rewards seem to be fine tuned to get burned up in fast advancing to maintain your rating (which is a horrible clickfest on all stops)
Some rewards fail. Paying 10% more for Palladium at an extraction station isn't much of a reward, right?
And the weapons turned out to be a bust, too.

How does PP affect the players?
constant interdictions, even in your own headquarter system, are very annoying
being shot at despite a legit legal status without being allowed to shoot back is even more annoying
lots of players picking up PP as a reason to RPK - solo mode, thank you.

How is PP being played?
Either a mindnumbing grind on helpless NPCs as "Undermining" to get merits
Burn all the money you're making to fast track power commodities (which is a horrible clickfest, a real UI nightmare)
Or bring your laptop to work to load up on those free power commodities every half hour, ie the Facebook Farmville style way
IE the stuff we do in power play is boring, grindy and repetitive. On top of not making credits.

These are your issues. This is why you probably are seeing a massive decrease in merits earned over the last few weeks. Not the powerplay meta in itself.

I don't want to be all negative, there is something good about power play. I like the pictures of the people.

I agree with all of this. Here are some ideas I've had to solve some of them..

constant interdictions, even in your own headquarter system, are very annoying

In a control system there should be patrols of loyal ships which quickly interdict enemies and/or drop into wakes of interdicted allies. A bit like how the system security shows up in a high-sec system, but not linked to security levels - someone suggested on reddit it might be linked to the current fortification/undermining levels - so if fortification is ahead then there are more allies spawning to help with the enemies which spawn at a slower rate, etc.

Or bring your laptop to work to load up on those free power commodities every half hour, ie the Facebook Farmville style way

This is what I'm doing... it's boring as heck but it's the only way I am going to reach rank 5. To help with this, when you click to collect the total # of commodities you can collect at that point in time should be MIN(<total free cargo space>,<per half-hour>*<half-hours-since-last-collected>). So, if you've not collected anything for 10 hours then you can fill your 500 tonne T-9 immediately. This will mean I can stop bringing the laptop to work, and instead just do what I currently do every evening which is deliver the free cargo, fast-track another 500 tonnes, then bounty hunt for 5mil cr to break even.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Argh, Zac, Sandro, no info on the "collapse" mechanic discussion in your previous Powerplay thread? I think soemthing along those lines or the ones offered as feedback in that thread for this would go a tremendous long way in strengthening territorial motivations and help players gather naturally with much more specific goals in mind that foster fun conflict.
 
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I agree with all the people saying it is too much of a grind, and that it feels disconnected from the game.

Why do we need this formula to limit growth? It seems to be because people could just keep moving packages to prepare/fortify since there is an infinite supply of packages.

Why not have the total number of fortify/undermine packages be directly proportional to the powers available CC?
This way there's no infinitely available packages and the growth is self limiting.

It would also mean that not only is a large powers growth capped but it will also find itself unable to fortify and be susceptible to undermining once it has no more packages. Right now undermining is mostly determined by the effectiveness of 1 power vs another and the availability of players to earn ridiculous amounts of merits.

These are just my thoughts and I'm no game master/designer, but I'd really like to do away with the infinite packages which encourage competitive grinding.
And also have a more real/physically based feeling to Powerplay
 
75.4

That's the answer to powerplay.
Since overheads are effectively linear, you need to pick systems which give >75.4 CC profit on average (once fortification/undermining is accounted for).
Fail to do this and your expansion will slow/stop, succeed and expansion will quicken/continue.

Anyway, assuming the maths now work, I hope FDev can start working on improvements to the powerplay gameplay. The 'missions' are way too tedious, repetitive and grindy.
 
The whole powerplay system ignores the factions you already had. The powers should derive their power from the factions that were already in the game. If you want to promote a power and spread their influence then it should work by that power handing out missions to support a minor faction in a system that backs the power's leader.

Edit: To elaborate.

You have factions in a system. Power A wants to take the system from Power B. Faction A supports Power A and Faction B supports Power B. Each Power provides missions and bonus rewards for those missions to get the faction they want in control of the system.

Oh, you need a money sink for all the players rolling in cash? Make some of the missions the charity ones where you provide trade goods or credits directly. Have the powers promise to upgrade a station when they move in so it's worthwhile to the players to spend their money on it.

Now you've killed three birds with one stone.
Missions mean something to players because they drive a cause they care about.
The minor factions mean something and players care about who is in control on both a local level and a galaxy wide level.
There is a way to get credits back out of the players hands while the players promote their cause.

Sounds good to me! +1
 

Sandro Sammarco

Lead Designer
Frontier
Hello Commanders RosaMaus and atak2!

Without belittling your comments in any way (you're completely entitled to your opinions, and to state them), I have to disagree with your conclusions (of course :)).

The changes we are currently making to Powerplay are focused on increasing legibility and catching "gotcha" scenarios where our formulas threaten to a throw a wobbly.

Increasing variety and game play for Poweplay is not something we've ignored, but such stuff tends to take longer and, importantly, needs the framework to be solid. So the framework generally has to come first (plus, it's often quicker to see changes!).

Hello Commander Ben Ryder!

We don't have any plans for tracking merit information right now, but it's something for us to chew on, for sure.

Also, there are still additions for smuggling knocking around (heck, there are additions for almost everything), but I can't give guarantees and ETAs just right now (aren't I a rotter?)

Hello Commander Quineloe!

There's every possibility that rewards will be tweaked/changed over time, but there's always a danger when looking at these systems where personal bias allows us to draw conclusions that don't represent a general consensus (believe me, from my viewpoint there's sometimes no consensus at all!) This applies to things like interdiction rates as well.

Basically, feedback is great, but it takes time to consider it, any calls we make still won't please everyone and changes always take time to implement.

So just because we don't answer or respond immediately does not mean we think such ideas are automatically bad (though I can't claim that we see *every* idea on all the forums - there's simply not enough hours in the day.)

Hello Commander SushiCW!

The interactions with minor factions are *still as valid as ever*. Whilst we are investigating additional ways to get interaction between minor factions and powers, you have to remember that the scale difference can be so enormous that I'm not entirely sure what the "proper" integration would be. But yes, the point made is valid (and we've got some ideas...), there's just nothing to report right now.

The Galnet news report is an interim fix. Although regardless of where we point information, it's only useful if folk consider it. If supporting your power is important to you, and the Galnet report offers you very useful information, why would you want to tune it out?

Hello Commander jgm!

Yes, this change does affect the powers in different ways based on their current control systems, with the potential for some to lose out in the short term. We still think it's a better long term solution and worth the pain.

Having the main cause of turmoil be down to other powers is a key point we're aiming for. It's far better than simply getting too big (in my opinion).

Hello Commanders! (because if I try to keep answering every post then it's game over!)

Addressing as best I can right now a couple of issues that crop up a number of times:

Powerplay is too grindy:

Without infinite resources there is always going to be a limit to what the game can offer, inside or outside of Powerplay. That being said, we hear ya, we definitely have plans regarding variety and game play, again, both inside and outside of Powerplay (that's all I can say right now).

This is in addition to changes we're contemplating like adding collapse states for systems that get ultra-undermined, e.g. changes in the Powerplay mechanics to facilitate more nuanced game play.

Powerplay is not rewarding:


I would hope there is some inherent reward in seeing your power do well. In addition, we don't necessarily want Powerplay to simply be a way of generating huge amounts of credits, which is why we'll be keeping a close eye on rating rewards and system effects to see how it pans out. We have no problem making changes if we're confident it will help.

Going forward, broadening the concept of tangible "rewards" from simply credits in the game is something we're exploring.

In conclusion (for now!) the concept of Powerplay is something we think is good for the game. It represents the background simulation on a grand scale, it dynamically changes how the galaxy operates in clean, legible ways for all Commanders, not simply those supporting a power, and it is player driven.

We understand direct participation with Powerplay is not for everyone, and that's OK; the system can operate effectively at wildly different levels of participation. We also think that it could support more, in terms of activity and reward: we're looking at these areas - no guarantees or ETA, but it's on the agenda.

That's where we stand with Powerplay at the moment; I hope this info helps show where we're coming from.
 
Hi Zac and Sandro,

Thank you for inviting and responding to feedback.

I have an idea which I think would make Powerplay more interesting (at least for me!),
Deeper Integration with the Background Sim:
Minor Factions could give out PP-specific Bulletin Board Missions at appropriate times. The Missions could feed into Preparation, Expansion, and Control, and other aspects of Powerplay:

Preparation - When a System is Prepared enough to make the Preparation List, Bulletin Board Missions could start to appear to both support and oppose further Preparation efforts in the System. Minor Factions with a government type, or Major Faction allegiance in keeping with the particular Power's Ethos would offer Supporting Missions; antithetical Minor Factions would offer Opposing Missions. Successful Supporting Missions would positively modify the impact of Preparation Commodities delivered to the System for the rest of the Cycle. Successful Opposition Missions would do the reverse, and lessen the impact of that Power's Preparation for the remainder of the Cycle. Missions could be continually issued for the duration of a Cycle, relating to all Powers attempting Preparation in the System.

Expansion / Control - Supporting / Opposing Missions could again be issued by appropriate Minor Factions, which could modify the subsequent impact of the direct PP-actions of Players working in the System. Successful Supporting Missions could decrease the Trigger Point for Expansion, or increase the Trigger Point for Opposition, for example.

Power Control Effects - Instead of the "passive" area effects of Powers being Universally in place (Arissa Bounty Hunting Bonus, Sirius Discounts, etc), they could be Unlocked on a System-by-system basis, by completing Minor Faction Missions in the Control & Exploited Systems. Once Control Effects have been Unlocked, Enhancement Missions could then become available, many of which would then need to be completed by many CMDRs to then further Enhance the Control Effect in that System for the remainder of the Cycle (extra 5% bounty for example).

Sabotage - If a Control System contains a Minor Faction which is antithetical to the Ethos of the Controlling Power, then the Minor Faction in question could offer "Sabotage" Missions on the Bulletin Board. These Missions could reduce any Control Effects which have been Unlocked in the System.

These Missions could be available to all, regardless of Player's Pledge-status / wider involvement with Powerplay.

I think it would also help if the interplay between Minor Faction Government Types and Power Ethos was much more pronounced, and had a more meaningful impact on what happens in the game. More pronounced impact on the bonuses and Control Effects, but also a more visible influence on ambient NPC behaviour, local Galnet, that sort of thing too.

I think your changes about Overheads and Expansion will help PP to an extent, but as to myself I have drifted away from PP lately because it does not offer the same breadth of activities or a richness of opportunity for storymaking as, for example, the chained series of Community Goals around the Lugh War did. I appreciate that you have asked for Player Group input for PP CGs elsewhere on the Forum, which I welcome, but I worry that without a deeper connection to the Minor Factions / Background Sim in the first place, it seems PGs won't have much to work with at the moment if they are limited to Powerplay as it stands today.
 
My gripe is that powerplay just isnt fun.
I have to grind for many many hours to gain and then maintain rank 5..that isnt fun.
Powerplay put the community in different places, thats a bad thing, community goals used to put people in the 1 spot, that was a good thing, was good for piracy, and was good for player interaction in general.
The only reason I join a power now is to obtain its 4 week weapon. That is bad. if you are a bounty hunter, the choice is pretty easy about where to go... the faction benefits arent close to being balanced; some are really good, some are ok and some are absolutely woeful. Some of the expoilted/controlled bonuses are more hurtful than helpful (Aisling Duval) and doesnt make for a fun gameplay mechanic.
There hasnt been ANY story development since powerplay, why am i taking this system? Why do i want to? for some random cause...ok..why bother? Give me a reason to want to expand into X system, make systems have specific bonuses for X power, make powers fight over the system in order to obtain a benefit.
Force people into open mode by making open mode more rewarding, people being able to undermine to their hearts content in solo or private group is extremely frustrating because there is nothing you can do about it, it effects immersion and is simply not fun to have to counter an enemy by 1 method only (hauling more stuff rather than stopping said haul)
I dare say that FD's insistence that there be multiple game modes and all being able to participate in the same world all effecting the world is going to destroy the game. The community is split, and these different game modes are the cause.
Please make solo a separate save.
Please make Private group a separate save(solo save)
Please insentivise open play.
Stop over promising and under delivering, comments about combat logging soon to be fixed happened 6 months ago and nothing has happened, you arent banning hackers, you need to permanantly shadow ban people who use hacks, they know its wrong, they can still play the game, I dont want to see them in game. Only introduce features that have meaningful addition to gameplay (powerplay is not meaningful) Wings and community goals were great additions, and they (CG's) arent getting used enough, Every faction should have their own community goal, I dont want to have to travel 250LY to participate in one.
its nearly 3am here, but thats all I have off the top of my head. I am pretty dissapointed that FD have made the base of a great game and then just destroyed it with bad idea after bad idea and poor execution, the game could still be great with the tools that you have, but you refuse to.
And stop announcing announcements. Seriously, announce something or dont, dont tell me you have big news in 7 weeks time, I dont want to know, just tell me the news or shut the hell up.
 
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