Powerplay Powerplay is dumb. Please make it die.

[the100thmonkey]

Yes, in practice they are mostly activities re-used from the main game, but it's similarity is not because the in-game-universe activity is the same as PP so much as it is a limitation on the game engine and programmer time to work on it. You misunderstand my statement. I am not saying the reality of it isn't similar as a player playing the game. I'm saying the in-universe representation of it is completed unrelated and operates on different mechanics and on different levels than the things a minor faction or group of players could hope to influence.

Fair enough, but my point is that we're already doing Powerplay. We've been doing "Powerplay" since the day we started playing the game. Seriously, given the amount of inducement and support given to you, I seriously wonder about the motivation behind it. Although I suspect it's been in the pipeline all along in some form or another, it's tempting to wonder whether the community reponse to the BGS in the Gamma and 1.0 release didn't lead to a few crisis meetings in FDHQ:

"They don't get it."
"What do you mean they don't get it? What is 'it'?"
"The BGS. The community don't know what to make of it. The majority of them even doubt it exists!"
"Sweet hairy Jesus! You can't be serious! It's right in their faces!"
"I know right!?"
"Well, what do we do?"
"Let's give them a comedy bad guy with blond dreadlocks."
"Great plan!"

"Meta" faction influence is a contrivance attempting to address this basic problem, which is that the BGS isn't immediately obvious, and when it is, it gets broken with every update and needs to be patched to make it work. I'm categorically not advocating the standard trope of player groups messing with other player groups because 'space= money', as it does in other games. However, I really do find the whole Powerplay mechanic to be simply patronising, because I've been doing remarkably similar activities from practically day one.

For example, where did Antal come from? What purpose does he serve in the game? Why does the Federation (or Empire) allow him to 'exploit' systems? What is CC? No, really: what is CC? What relationship does it have to a system? If such a thing cannot be coherently accounted for, why does it affect the BGS at all? Why can't it be a different game mode for players who want to BGS without BGSing?

In the game universe, your able to sway local faction influence. That's it really. You aren't given a means to sway meta faction influence because it is beyond the influence of a handful of people. A power comes in and regardless of the government or minor faction, can take control of the system. That kind of influence and power is not something a minor faction can stop, simply make harder. The only thing that can stop it is a force of equal power and influence (another power).

But they don't take control of a system. They spend some magic beans and get more magic beans back, all because the magic beans are a different kind of magic beans from the magic beans that the game gives you for actually interacting with it.

Pretending like some minor faction should be able to oppose the force spanning hundreds of systems is not really realistic. It's not simply a military matter. It's influence. That influence is not confined to a single government type or faction, it is much bigger than all of that and your tiny voice will not be heard over it. Nor should it.

Naturally, I agree. Where I disagree is in the need for the "influence" of the magic-bean-wielding "force" in the first place. The Federation, Empire and Alliance weren't sufficiently interesting for the players (in itself a major issue), so the response is to write lame -- I mean really lame -- characters and force everyone to sign up for them, even if they don't like it? Come on.

I appreciate that as a signed-up player you probably see the benefits. I would be less critical if I were getting paid 10mcr/hr to shoot NPCs, but notwithstanding, the basic premise is poor: do what you're told and get paid massive amounts of money for it. Who cares if players who've actually bothered to work it out for themselves get screwed in the process. There's, like, Smurfette and everything.

Now in reality, yes, a group of players can oppose the will of a power. But such activity should be contained via all parties being part of a power (even if only for a day) because that's how it should be required to play out in the in-game-universe. Having it your way just looks ridiculous.

But you miss the point: the whole idea of "Powers" is bonkers. They don't even do it for money! They only do their whole "Power" thing because they're "Powers" who seem to like magic beans. If it were properly integrated into the BGS, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But it's not. It's kind-of-added in such a way that if you don't care about the BGS, you will probably do it for the money so you can build ships to make PvE easy and PvP more fun. If you do care about the BGS, you'll only do it when the PPers show up on your doorstep with their ravenous hunger for magic beans and how your home can help them get more.

Imagine the irony when, a month or so back, how PP interacts with the BGS became widely understood, and suddenly the PP groups wanted to make friends with the BGS-oriented ones.

Basically, I'm questioning the basic rationale for Powerplay, not the (really stupid) mechanics (although, as my OP states, what the hell are the po-po doing trying to apprehend criminals in a warzone? And given that they were working for the faction that was being undermined in their system control, why didn't one or both of the factions in the "security sweep" shoot at them? Hmmm...)

It's a bad meta-game with bad mechanics that have ridiculous outcomes for players. You're entirely welcome to play it, but frankly I feel that the game would be better served by prioritising development on the BGS, raising its profile and encouarging players to interact with it more meaningfully. "Go here, deliver that, shoot this" is categorically not a mechanic that serves the creation of a long-term player base.

 

[tricky]

it's not the alliance taking control via powerplay, it's edmung mahon, who happens to be the president of the alliance at thos point (but he will step back/ rotate away as alliance president after a year, while he probably will go on exploiting any kind of systems). the alliance takes over, if an aliance minor faction rules the system

if you want to work for the alliance, you don't work for mahon.

same goes for hudson, as a job he is president of the federation, but he is exploiting and controlling all kind of systems next to this job - imperial systems, alliance systems...

Mahon is the Prime Minister, not President, which isn't rotated every year. We have no idea how long he has been in office.

You are right when you say, "if you want to work for the alliance, you don't work for mahon."

 

[goemon]

Mahon is the Prime Minister, not President, which isn't rotated every year. We have no idea how long he has been in office.

You are right when you say, "if you want to work for the alliance, you don't work for mahon."

uh, that is interesting, and this was new to me. never looked for the difference of prime minister and president.... but you are right! thank you!


so - who is the president of the alliance?

anyway, i just wanted to put it as an exampel similar to hudson: as a powerplayer mahon is not "the alliance", as hudson is not "the federation", as li yong ruis powerplay space doesn't turn sirius corporation into "corporate space".

 

[goemon]

Thing is, it's been mentioned, what, a couple of times by the devs?

this is the freedom fighter idea mentioned by the devs: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=169489

 

[goemon]

"They don't get it."
"What do you mean they don't get it? What is 'it'?"
"The BGS. The community don't know what to make of it. The majority of them even doubt it exists!"
"Sweet hairy Jesus! You can't be serious! It's right in their faces!"
"I know right!?"
"Well, what do we do?"
"Let's give them a comedy bad guy with blond dreadlocks."
"Great plan!"

actually i think your analysis is quite right, but biased. you hate powerplay. that's fine. but (/rp on) you should look at it from a dialectical perspective. (/rp off)

a lot of players didn't enjoy fiddling with the bgs, because (that was one of the earliest thread i remember by a team who worked on some small system at the edge of the bubble) "i actually can't care about "HIP 1078 Purple Brothers".

so, the invention of characters (how well or bad written - yes, i personally would prefer aasimov-characters, too...) was tackling that problem, and, as it looks, to some extend successfull:

we can make jokes about the blue-haired princess, that is something "Orphiuchi Enterprises" never managed.

how about trying to understand, why people enjoy powerplay, and then formulate your problem as an independent-unpledged bgs player, with an idea how those two ways to play "a meta game" can work out next to each other?

that unpledged players (like i am one) actually do care, whether a system is "exploited" by somebody, as we care about which faction is ruling it, or how the security level is, is something which wasn't intended, but should be taken into account.

 

[Brujah]

I think your issue is you're looking at it as if it's all macro-economics when in reality your contribution is micro-economics and the overarching effect of the Powerplay Powers is macro-economics. You might well be in a position to get a few communist settlements on the go, but if Saudi Arabia decides to get into a price war with Russia over oil, communist or not, your economy is going to suffer.

Is it great that you can't directly control that? Yes and no. It's not great because it's nice to have control over things in a game you're playing. It IS great because it's a lot more realistic to have limits to the extent of your control as an individual (or even small group).
Those actively participating in Powerplay don't have any more control than you do, really.

Incidentally, flipping systems using the BGS is something the more co-ordinated Powerplay players have been doing for a long time.

 

[the100thmonkey]

My basic issue with it is it's not a fun game mode for us, and we moved our bases of operations several times (the last time right to the edge of populated space) to avoid Powerplay areas. Yet here we are, six months later, with ridiculous comedy bad guys, anime princesses and ridiculous inducements to participate knocking on our door again.

 

[Ziljan]

My basic issue with it is it's not a fun game mode for us, and we moved our bases of operations several times (the last time right to the edge of populated space) to avoid Powerplay areas. Yet here we are, six months later, with ridiculous comedy bad guys, anime princesses and ridiculous inducements to participate knocking on our door again.

PP is a zero sum benefit. Any increase in income is offset by an opportunity cost or a time sink. Constant interdictions and low income Merit grinding is barely offset by your PP salary. Rating 2/5 bonuses can be good, but not better than trading, and only break-even with simply doing that activity without grinding for a bonus.

The only real benefits of PP are the passive bonuses that don't require pledging. Eg, I actually made more money in the last 5 weeks without PP than I did in the three months prior while pledged.

 

[CaliMeatWagon]

PP is a zero sum benefit. Any increase in income is offset by an opportunity cost or a time sink. Constant interdictions and low income Merit grinding is barely offset by your PP salary. Rating 2/5 bonuses can be good, but not better than trading, and only break-even with simply doing that activity without grinding for a bonus.

The only real benefits of PP are the passive bonuses that don't require pledging. Eg, I actually made more money in the last 5 weeks without PP than I did in the three months prior while pledged.

I think you might be overlooking something. Most of the people who are pledged to powerplay and devote time towards it are not interested in it for the money or the bonuses. Most of us are in it because it gives us something to do for the "end-game". I have every ship that I want in the game with more than enough cash to buy whatever I want. If it wasn't for powerplay, I would of stopped playing a long time ago.
I continue with powerplay because it gives me, and my Taco brethren, a sense of accomplishment as working together helps us shape the galaxy, at least the human occupied part (looks at AF Leporis).

 

[the100thmonkey]

I actually made more money in the last 5 weeks without PP than I did in the three months prior while pledged.

Actually, I just made more money in one six-hour session in independent space than I have in a long time.

Undermining can be fun, but it's really no different than undermining a minor faction within the confines of the vanilla BGS.

I see Hudson crashed and burned massively this cycle. Given that, I'm somewhat more appreciative of the more subtle parts of PP. Despite this, I'm still of the opinion that PPers don't do anything fundamentally different from the vanilla BGS, except they have waterwings.

I think you might be overlooking something. Most of the people who are pledged to powerplay and devote time towards it are not interested in it for the money or the bonuses. Most of us are in it because it gives us something to do for the "end-game". I have every ship that I want in the game with more than enough cash to buy whatever I want. If it wasn't for powerplay, I would of stopped playing a long time ago.
I continue with powerplay because it gives me, and my Taco brethren, a sense of accomplishment as working together helps us shape the galaxy, at least the human occupied part (looks at AF Leporis).

I'm in the same position - I have sufficient (but not unlimited) funds, a small fleet of the ships I find genuinely useful - 2 DBS, a couple of Vultures, an Asp, an A-rated liquid "Python" and an FdL. I don't need cash, and it's quite easy for me to spend an evening or two shooting stuff and running missions in order to buy more (I have no interest in an Anaconda, Cutter or Corvette, incidentally: Flying the really big ships just makes me want to disconnect; the biggest I can tolerate is the Python). For me, achievement in the game is not owning every ship either.

But surely if you were able, with your Taco brethren (there's a phrase I never thought I'd type!) to carve out a region of space populated largely by Tacos, with Tacos in control of every system within a 60LY bubble, you'd feel a similar sense of achievement, wouldn't you? Why does being told where to go and what to do by the BGS reward you more than you telling the BGS what it is going to do for you? For me, a big part of the game is about control - something strongly referenced in the propotional materials. I decide what I'm going to do. My comrades and I have enough information that we almost always agree on what the next step for us is. The problem I have with PP (apart from the rubbish writing) is that the more demanding parts are all handled for you, without you needing to interact with a single soul. Sure, I can ignore PP (what I've been trying to do), because it provides nothing over and above what we've been doing since before 1.1, but given my experience of the game so far, I have to ask: Why does it exist?

 

[Ziljan]

I think you might be overlooking something. Most of the people who are pledged to powerplay and devote time towards it are not interested in it for the money or the bonuses. Most of us are in it because it gives us something to do for the "end-game". I have every ship that I want in the game with more than enough cash to buy whatever I want. If it wasn't for powerplay, I would of stopped playing a long time ago.
I continue with powerplay because it gives me, and my Taco brethren, a sense of accomplishment as working together helps us shape the galaxy, at least the human occupied part (looks at AF Leporis).

I am in the same boat. Hoards of cash. Every ship I want, etc. If power play was actually more complex that the base game, then that would make sense for advanced players to play it. But there are only 3 different kinds of missions in PP, only 1 of which isn't eyewateringly dull, but it gets old very quickly. So there is actually less depth to gameplay than here is in the BGS, unless you count the height of the stacks of spreadsheets and databases piled on empty air. If they could somehow combine the two, and add in a real system defense mechanic, then maybe I'd be tempted to try it again.

The way I now see it, PP is just a PVP flag for people in open and a "pls interdict me" sign taped onto your back in PVE.

 

[CaliMeatWagon]

Actually, I just made more money in one six-hour session in independent space than I have in a long time.

Undermining can be fun, but it's really no different than undermining a minor faction within the confines of the vanilla BGS.

I see Hudson crashed and burned massively this cycle. Given that, I'm somewhat more appreciative of the more subtle parts of PP. Despite this, I'm still of the opinion that PPers don't do anything fundamentally different from the vanilla BGS, except they have waterwings.

I'm in the same position - I have sufficient (but not unlimited) funds, a small fleet of the ships I find genuinely useful - 2 DBS, a couple of Vultures, an Asp, an A-rated liquid "Python" and an FdL. I don't need cash, and it's quite easy for me to spend an evening or two shooting stuff and running missions in order to buy more (I have no interest in an Anaconda, Cutter or Corvette, incidentally: Flying the really big ships just makes me want to disconnect; the biggest I can tolerate is the Python). For me, achievement in the game is not owning every ship either.

But surely if you were able, with your Taco brethren (there's a phrase I never thought I'd type!) to carve out a region of space populated largely by Tacos, with Tacos in control of every system within a 60LY bubble, you'd feel a similar sense of achievement, wouldn't you? Why does being told where to go and what to do by the BGS reward you more than you telling the BGS what it is going to do for you? For me, a big part of the game is about control - something strongly referenced in the propotional materials. I decide what I'm going to do. My comrades and I have enough information that we almost always agree on what the next step for us is. The problem I have with PP (apart from the rubbish writing) is that the more demanding parts are all handled for you, without you needing to interact with a single soul. Sure, I can ignore PP (what I've been trying to do), because it provides nothing over and above what we've been doing since before 1.1, but given my experience of the game so far, I have to ask: Why does it exist?

Well Hudson didn't really "crash and burn" We are still in second place like we were last week. ALD is the one that crashed and burned, dropping from 1st to 5th in one week. Plus, Hudson going into turmoil was planned. It was something that we wanted to happen so we could lose loss making systems that were expanding into by 5th Column groups.

Also, Taco Corp does have a minor faction and we do a lot of work towards advancing it.

As for powerplay, read what my response is below as it fits towards both of you.

I am in the same boat. Hoards of cash. Every ship I want, etc. If power play was actually more complex that the base game, then that would make sense for advanced players to play it. But there are only 3 different kinds of missions in PP, only 1 of which isn't eyewateringly dull, but it gets old very quickly. So there is actually less depth to gameplay than here is in the BGS, unless you count the height of the stacks of spreadsheets and databases piled on empty air. If they could somehow combine the two, and add in a real system defense mechanic, then maybe I'd be tempted to try it again.

The way I now see it, PP is just a PVP flag for people in open and a "pls interdict me" sign taped onto your back in PVE.

1. Minor Factions do have a large impact on powerplay. Mainly they effect undermining and fortification triggers based on the "average" government type of the controlling factions withing the exploited bubble of a control system.

2. You two may see it as we are being told where to go and what to do by numbers and spreadsheets, but the truth of the matter is, it all comes down to the players. For proof of this go and visit the respect Reddits of the different powerplay factions. Each week a group of players crunch the numbers, look at what the others are doing/planning, and come up with a strategy. There are alliances between different groups (Hudson and Winters work closely together for instance) and certain groups are enemies (like Hudson and ALD). Plus there is a tons of history behind everything. Take a look at AF Leporis. That system has been largely contents over for months. It used to belong to LYR, but then they lost it. ALD and Hudson tried preparing it and it become the largest prep battle in Elite history with almost 6 Billion credits worth of prep put into it. Hudson lost by a small margin. The next week ALD tried expanding into it, but got hit hard by Hudson and Winters. And even though ALD fortified every system, she still got put into turmoil due to her inherently bad economy. Hudson was then able to prepare into AF Leporis with very little opposition and successfully expanded into the week after.
The following week ALD tried striking out against Winters by expanding into a system within her space in the hopes that the Federation would put ALD into turmoil so they could shed some of her loss making systems and strengthen her economy. The Federation realized this and Winters graciously accepted the loss, foiling ALD's plans.

The strange thing about it is you would think that ALD and AD would have a very easy time maintaining first place considering that ALD alone has at least twice the playerbase of Hudson. But Hudson and Winters pilots are more dedicated and better coordinated than our Imperial counter parts.

Here is a link to the Hudson and ALD sub-reddits so you two can get a better idea as to what it is I'm talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteHudson/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteLavigny

 

[Ziljan]

Well Hudson didn't really "crash and burn" We are still in second place like we were last week. ALD is the one that crashed and burned, dropping from 1st to 5th in one week. Plus, Hudson going into turmoil was planned. It was something that we wanted to happen so we could lose loss making systems that were expanding into by 5th Column groups.

Also, Taco Corp does have a minor faction and we do a lot of work towards advancing it.

As for powerplay, read what my response is below as it fits towards both of you.



1. Minor Factions do have a large impact on powerplay. Mainly they effect undermining and fortification triggers based on the "average" government type of the controlling factions withing the exploited bubble of a control system.

2. You two may see it as we are being told where to go and what to do by numbers and spreadsheets, but the truth of the matter is, it all comes down to the players. For proof of this go and visit the respect Reddits of the different powerplay factions. Each week a group of players crunch the numbers, look at what the others are doing/planning, and come up with a strategy. There are alliances between different groups (Hudson and Winters work closely together for instance) and certain groups are enemies (like Hudson and ALD). Plus there is a tons of history behind everything. Take a look at AF Leporis. That system has been largely contents over for months. It used to belong to LYR, but then they lost it. ALD and Hudson tried preparing it and it become the largest prep battle in Elite history with almost 6 Billion credits worth of prep put into it. Hudson lost by a small margin. The next week ALD tried expanding into it, but got hit hard by Hudson and Winters. And even though ALD fortified every system, she still got put into turmoil due to her inherently bad economy. Hudson was then able to prepare into AF Leporis with very little opposition and successfully expanded into the week after.
The following week ALD tried striking out against Winters by expanding into a system within her space in the hopes that the Federation would put ALD into turmoil so they could shed some of her loss making systems and strengthen her economy. The Federation realized this and Winters graciously accepted the loss, foiling ALD's plans.

The strange thing about it is you would think that ALD and AD would have a very easy time maintaining first place considering that ALD alone has at least twice the playerbase of Hudson. But Hudson and Winters pilots are more dedicated and better coordinated than our Imperial counter parts.

Here is a link to the Hudson and ALD sub-reddits so you two can get a better idea as to what it is I'm talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteHudson/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteLavigny

After finishing some CGs, I was looking for a way to occupy my time before Horizons beta. After looking for interesting things to do in PP, I found out about HIP 44811. A hot little piece of real estate for Hudson that is actually worth fighting for if you enjoy sticking it to the Empire, which I really really do. So I repledged to Hudson.


You make some great points. I am going to have to give this a deeper look. Superficially, there might not be much of a benefit to participating in PP, but the emergent back and forth between players and player groups is certainly rich soil to create some interesting drama and action. I am going to give this whole thing another serious try and not pay so much attention to how much it is benefiting me, but more to the bigger chess board, and see if it is actually any fun. Obviously, I still think that PP needs lots of work to make it deeper. But in the meantime, the emergent depth from player groups working for specific goals might just be enough to make it worthwhile.