Powerplay mechanics theorycrafting: How, and if, will Powers fall and rise.

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Interesting discussion started at the A Lavigny Duval thread but that I think could benefit from a more wide discussion. Here the relevent initial posts fr context:

Which brings me to a possible dilemma...

I ve seen that so far most Powers manage to Fortify their Control Systems in no time. The only direct way we have to "attack" other Powers is via Undermining, which, given everything is fortified, will at most make your enemy have to pay the default CC cost for that system, which tends to be around 20-40 CC tops.

Now given that most powers have in the region of close to 1000 net CC free or more, it is going to take a heck of a lot of Control Systems to be undermined to have any meaningful negative impact in an enemy´s territory no?

Further if (big if) a Power goes into negative CC territory, it will be the most expensive CC systems that will go into Turmoil first, wherever they happen to be. I.e. there does not seem to be a way for us to target specific systems. It is already pre ordained based on worst CC negative net order.

I am not sure if this is clear but hey. I also guess that we need to leave it run for a few cycles before realizing how all this will actually pan out, but from what I have seen so far most Powers manage to Fortify all their CS in no time. In general I see those progress bars (irrespective of the activity) to grow very high and very fast in most cases.

yeah, I've thought the same thing.
Until the green systems are all gone and Powers start expanding into the red zones there will probably be lots of CC available.
I thin Felicia Winters had 100% of her systems not fortified last cycle, that certainly didn't put her into negative CC.

I agree that this is an issue with powerplay. There doesn't really seem to be any way to actually attack another power and force them to lose control of systems. Part of the problem is that the turn cycle of 1 week is far too long. This means there is no problem with fortification as you have all week to hit your triggers. Changing it to the same mechanic as for expansion could work and would force players to keep on fortifying. However I think I'd rather see a more dynamic system where things start happening the moment the triggers are reached.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like the CGs. A minimum amount that needs to be done in a week, and a maximum about that ends it early if reached.

I'm not sure power can collapse even with 5th column actions. If you have all systems fortified, you have solid +CC. It's enough to expand at the moment. I don't now how many spoiled eggs power needs to start collapsing, when all systems are fortified and undermined. A lot I guess. This leads to moment when nobody can expand and everything is controlled or exploited. Static.

I don't like situation where only way to stop control is bankruptcy. It's not like we have peace in galaxy. There are conflicts everywhere. I think what we have is phase one of power play without open fights over controlled systems. That would be next phase. That or thargoids^^.


There is a point where expansion will cease to make sense, but if it continues to be "grindy fun", it will never stop of its own accord...

The most powerful Powers will self-destruct first? Oh! And systems that go into turmoil and eventually collapse can give growth to new Powers! This could continue for years!

Though, honestly, the manual sets it straight. If you want a Power to fully collapse, you have to keep them from expanding multiple weeks in a row. That is usually where the all out secret wars happen.

By the way, I think the galactic wars will supersede PowerPlay. This is just a function for the secret wars.
 
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What about more specific ways to target a power's ability to expand, or CC capital? My answer: Sabotage. If two powers share a lot of border, they start to give sabotage missions against each other.
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Sabotage missions adversely affects the target power if they attempt to exploit - or worse, control - it. The result is far worse than simply undermining, and will result in a that power probably losing a control system or two that week. Depending on the system's sabotage score, the CC income from that system for that week might be reduced. Or the income might even be negative. Maybe the fortification threshold might be suddenly increased drastically 24 hours before the end of the cycle.
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The killer about sabotage: Nobody can see a specific system's sabotage score - nobody. There's simply too much transparency between powers.
The only answer then is to be proactive. This gives real incentives for CMDRs to clear out other enemy CMDRs from areas their power is planning on expanding to.
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Unfortunately, solo and group players are immune to being ousted in this way. So I think that while players in all modes that participate in sabotage should get merits and normal mission rewards, system sabotage scores should only increase from contributions in open.
 
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Heres the current Income and Expenses from last cycle:

Hudson 3787 income 2714 upkeep
ALD 1999 456
Winters 2335 1104
Torval 1635 395
Mahon 963 227
Patreus 1148 377
AD 1072 181
Li 889 162
Delaine 784 233
Antal 537 141
 
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Most of prep/expansion/control is being done in solo/group meaning theres very little anyone can do about it. O used to solo but pp has brought me to open. Although it pains me to say it PP really has to be an open only feature. It the most logical way of playing it.
 
I don't see how you can bring a power to fall with the current PP mechanics. The only way a power can get crashed seems to be from inside.
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Also what is very troublesome.. I would really like to fight Arissa or the current number 1 Power Hudson or how he is called and not Winters.
But due to the PP merit rewards I have no choose than to hurt/harm Winters because any other action is so much worse in gaining merits that you have no alternative if you care about rank.
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In short the PP system setup has already set which power will raise and which will drop over long.
Second big problem.. there is no fighting.
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10000 of players with well devloped combat ships eager to fight for their power against other powers.. are keept back in their potential and fun and are limited to eighter carry cargo or shoot cargo transporters.
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We have Power Fractions. We have Warships. We have a whole universe designed for Battle and yet there is not a single possible to have a simple scrimage with weapons between two Fraction. (despide of selfmade PvP of course)
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But I am sure ED's solution when reading this is to put in a conflict zone where the two fraction can fightand which will not give any merits nor have any influence how a system could be won.
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It looks like that everything is done that Weapons are rendered absolutly useless when it comes to power and territories in the universe.
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Why ?!?
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p.s. For the postive:..at least something (fractions) can be moved now and the universe is no more to 100% static.
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Most of prep/expansion/control is being done in solo/group meaning theres very little anyone can do about it. O used to solo but pp has brought me to open. Although it pains me to say it PP really has to be an open only feature. It the most logical way of playing it.

Before PP, and in most of the previous CG and events such as Lugh, Qyivira etc there were tons of players in Open. Enough to keep busy any PvP´er or Open player in the area. I am still under the assumption most of thse will still play PP in Open too. But it is true that if there is a significant change there and most players start to play in Solo, PP will probably lose most of its appeal for many players.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Second big problem.. there is no fighting.
~
10000 of players with well devloped combat ships eager to fight for their power against other powers.. are keept back in their potential and fun and are limited to eighter carry cargo or shoot cargo transporters.
~
We have Power Fractions. We have Warships. We have a whole universe designed for Battle and yet there is not a single possible to have a simple scrimage with weapons between two Fraction. (despide of selfmade PvP of course)
~
But I am sure ED's solution when reading this is to put in a conflict zone where the two fraction can fightand which will not give any merits nor have any influence how a system could be won.
~
It looks like that everything is done that Weapons are rendered absolutly useless when it comes to power and territories in the universe.
Why?

I agree that it would be great if at least some of the PP activities were geared towards incentivizing direct player confrontation. At the moment it seems every group is doing their own bit and there is no need at all for conflict.
 
Before PP, and in most of the previous CG and events such as Lugh, Qyivira etc there were tons of players in Open. Enough to keep busy any PvP´er or Open player in the area. I am still under the assumption most of thse will still play PP in Open too. But it is true that if there is a significant change there and most players start to play in Solo, PP will probably lose most of its appeal for many players.

I see heaps of players in open.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
I see heaps of players in open.

That is what I need to hear :p

What system/area are you in?

I reckon we still need to give all this several cycles to get a full idea but yesterday evening a group of friends and me went out to Aisling space to see if we could "wreack some havoc", and couldnt find a single CMDR. All of their Fortifying bars were well past the 300% or so though...
 
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That is what I need to hear :p

What system/area are you in?

I reckon we still need to give all this several cycles to get a full idea but yesterday evening a group of friends and me went out to Aisling space to see if we could "wreack some havoc", and couldnt find a single CMDR. All of their Fortifying bars were well past the 300% or so though...

I'm sure there are many more in solo and private groups, I'm in Imperial space and Federation space :)
Players are crawling around Imperial space.

I'm mostly in Winters space and I don't see many federation pledged players in open. Quite a few Imperials there though.
 
I don't see how you can bring a power to fall with the current PP mechanics. The only way a power can get crashed seems to be from inside.


For me, that is biggest flaw of PP by far. Inside job should be an option, but not only one.

Also I don't get why fotify/undermine cancel eachother. Now, apart from 5th-columning, tactic is simple: secure expansions, fortify all to 100%, undermine enemy to 100% and then full power should be redirected into preparations(some crazy prep races). Most of ALD supporters should haul papers? Judge Dredd with briefcase?
 
Yes - it certainly does seem that way. Michael Brookes mentioned recently that powers have an additional central cost based on their size - which is certainly needed as a centrally-located power like Hudson or Winters still has marginally profitable systems close to the edge of human space - but it doesn't seem large enough to be a major limiting factor on the big powers at the moment: still plenty of opportunity to expand and do so much quicker than the small powers can manage. (The overhead must end up being quite significant eventually, because the distance-based cost increases linearly but the number of systems available at a particular distance increases cubically so long as you don't get too close to the frontier)

The way the mechanics are set up I think makes it a very bad idea for Frontier to do anything further to assist intra-power coordination (or indeed prevent double-agent sabotage) despite how obviously popular such things would be with players.

The mechanisms of PowerPlay are all fairly straightforward ones (it's been described as a "board game" and indeed all the mechanics are - barely - within the level of complexity that you could play it without a computer) which means that the "right" decisions are generally fairly obvious: fortify all your control systems, prepare a few good candidates for expansion up to your weekly budget, make sure last week's prepared systems are expanded and oppose and undermine as many opposing systems as you have time for.

A hypothetical power with perfect central control - which would be easy enough to achieve in-game by letting a basic power AI select preparation targets, and stopping (or seriously tapering) merit awards for actions which aren't useful - fortifying or undermining systems already at their thresholds, preparing systems other than the target ones or preparing a target system significantly beyond the level of opposition from other powers, etc. - would become incredibly efficient compared with now. At that point the bigger initial powers have a massive advantage. With the ability to prepare ten systems, which the top powers have, ideal play would allow an increase in CC surplus by around 500-1,000 a week, which would rapidly get out of hand: they already have enough CC to prepare whatever they like, more or less ...

Once - if! - you get to the point where overheads are becoming too high, then it's probably optimal to intentionally prepare no systems at all, or if you're in the bottom three despite being ridiculously large, prepare just one, and go all-out for ensuring expansion into it succeeds. At some point you might end up with too many systems to fortify them all ... but at that point you probably have too many systems for your opponents to undermine them all either, so you can afford to be a bit selective with "ideal" play.

(That's the "peaceful expansion" strategy - once you have a few thousand CC surplus to play with, though, ideal play would let you go for a much more aggressive strategy of setting up control systems 15.1 LY (or thereabouts) from opposing control systems of small powers - you can afford to expand somewhere loss-making or barely profitable; they can't afford to have a significant fraction of their exploited systems switch to contested)

I don't know whether the incompetence, incoherence, perverse incentives, and occasional active sabotage which means all powers are doing far from optimal stuff is intended by Frontier or not - but it does seem at this stage to be required to avoid the larger powers expanding extremely rapidly, and the smaller powers from being too easily flattened.
 
Before PP, and in most of the previous CG and events such as Lugh, Qyivira etc there were tons of players in Open. Enough to keep busy any PvP´er or Open player in the area. I am still under the assumption most of thse will still play PP in Open too. But it is true that if there is a significant change there and most players start to play in Solo, PP will probably lose most of its appeal for many players.

It already is theres times where we havd been sat in the very system thats being prepped not seen a single player yet it still gets prepped. Look at the top prep for ALD most of thatis done either solo or group.

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Allow for solo/group to feel and see the effects of pp but stop tyem from being able to earn merits unlees they are in open. No prep/expansion etc. That way we at least have a chance of speaking in game to a wider audience . It would certainly make 5th colum tacyics actually dangerous and more alinged with its meaning. Rather than whst we have now.
 
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