PP 2.0 + anarchy bgs, old problem - new problems, which "should be fixed NOW!"

[Donald Duck]

Hello FDev, o7 fellow commanders...

Starting with the issue, that bounties gained for a non-ruling faction in an anarchy system and cashed in in the very system (at a station owned by the ruling anarchy faction) increase the non-ruling faction's influence. For both space and on-foot actions.

This is - simply said - a paradox.

This topic has been around and it seemed about 1.5 - 2 years ago that it had been taken care of. I might be wrong, but as far as I observed, at least for some time one could not cash in bounties paid by non-ruling factions at a station owned by the anarchy faction in the same system, not via Administrative contact nor Interstellar Factor. One had to go to another system with the faction present there or an Interstellar Factor, which both by design do not contribute to the faction's INF in the original (anarchy) system. This examption I had been observing was probably "overwritten" by a later update, or even cancelled on purpose.

Now it is possible to cash bounties paid by non-ruling factions at a station owned by the anarchy faction and supposedly (as I don't know the code and can only observe and compare) contribute to the non-ruling faction's influence.

It seems to be a wrong game-rule!
Like FIFA ruling, teams starting with black jerseys need to tie their legs together.

Why?

Because by definition (irl and in the game) an anarchy is lawless space. So bounties should have no influence there at all!

If someone scans a ship in an uninhabited anarchy system, finds they are hunted and kills them, one needs to go "back to civilzation" too and the bounty would have no influence on the empty system's bgs. Technically an inhabited system should be treatened the same way.

Also mind, that - in normal bounty-hunting in eg a haz-res, other than when killing an npc send to obstruct a mission [and God knows why then?] - an anarchy faction will never pay a bounty. This has been switched off for anarchy factions somehow, as it does not make sense.

So someone sometime had at least some thought on that topic, but that has maybe been forgotten.

Why should any ruling faction - anarchy or not, but however defining the rules in that system - allow any action that would almost as a selffulfilling prophecy harm its rule? There is no logic in this! There are other, more logical, ways to increase INF for any non-anarchy faction if they want to take over or "free" this system, like missions.

Add merits for bounty hunting in PP 2.0...

How and why is it possible that additionally to above non-sense, any ship and cmdr having pledged to a power now [EDIT: and meets certain conditions] do not only get cash but also merits for a bounty-kill, even in systems which are not hosting any super power at the moment of this kill?

And by this massively influencing the system's bgs, working against the ruling anarchy faction? This is an open invitation to all greenhorns looking for a safe playground for bounty hunting as they would not get fined/hunted themselves for misshooting an unwanted npc. ^^

If this is intentionally and there is no plan to [finally] correct this, please let us know, as we would most certainly give up this hobby of maintaining an anarchy system for over 5 years, despite all the pro and cons thrown at us...

...and not continuing to keep the house tidily anarchic so that some comfort searching greenhorn commanders dont get jailed, but start spreading anarchy through the rest of the Bubble which way ever.

Thank you and looking forward to your answer...
o7

EDIIT: Since not many seem to remember what happened to anarchies when Ody came out, here is the thread from back then which - iirc - resulted in changes of how INF is handled in anarchy systems and was later changed back or forgotten:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/anarchy-factions-systems-influence-loss-reports.581427/

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Starting with the issue, that bounties gained for a non-ruling faction in an anarchy system and cashed in in the very system (at a station owned by the ruling anarchy faction) increase the non-ruling faction's influence. For both space and on-foot actions.

That's true of any system, though. KWS a secondary faction bounty up in any faction's space, and it contributes to the secondary faction's influence.

The primary faction will dislike the secondary faction being able to issue its own bounties whether it's an Anarchy faction or itself lawful, but that doesn't stop it happening.

Why should any ruling faction, anarchy or not but however defining the rules in that system, allow any action that would almost as a selffulfilling prophecy harm it's rule?

It's not in any faction's interest - by that argument - for factions to allow mission boards to exist for the other factions [1] and yet they all do so.

[1] Back in the old days I recall certain factions deliberately put their own systems into Lockdown to cut off that route to their enemies. I don't think anyone's tried that recently.

There are other, more logical, ways to increase INF for any non-anarchy faction if they want to take over or "free" this system, like trading.

Trading only benefits the station owner, so is very easy to lock other factions out of.

even in systems which are not hosting any super power at the moment of this kill?

Bounty hunting is an Acquisition and Reinforcement action. So you get merits only if:
- you're in a friendly system for your Power (Reinforcement)
- you're in a neutral but claimable system - so within 20/30 LY of your Power's Fortified/Stronghold systems (Acquisition)
If you're further away than that, no merits.

Also note: the merits are awarded instantly - you don't need to cash the actual bounties in at all. But ... if you don't cash them in on-site and return them to a friendly system instead, you get a 20% payout bonus. So while your system stays neutral, there's an incentive to do that.

The best defence here is a strong offence: stop your system being a valid Acquisition Target in the first place. Find all Fortified and Stronghold systems nearby and reduce them to Exploited status, and your system stops being targetable.
(If I've remembered correctly where you are, there's only four of them that would need taking out, and they belong to fairly weakly-supported Powers)

This is an open invitation to all greenhorns preferring bounty hunting in an anarchy system as they would not get fined for misshooting an unwanted npc.

But I would think considerably fewer merits and credits, because the KWS is just providing a bounty at all rather than adding to the existing primary faction bounty.

Is this some new thing? I don't recall "bounty hunt in Anarchy space" ever being a recommendation for quick profits, nor the token fines being a particularly common occurrence or inconvenience for people whose aim is good enough to make money from bounty hunting to start with or who can go to a HazRES because they no longer need help from SysAuth to finish the job.

 

[Donald Duck]

Hi Ian!

That's true of any system, though. KWS a secondary faction bounty up in any faction's space, and it contributes to the secondary faction's influence.

The primary faction will dislike the secondary faction being able to issue its own bounties whether it's an Anarchy faction or itself lawful, but that doesn't stop it happening.

Ofc it is true for any system, just that it doesn't make sense in an anarchy. Best comparison I can find is the rules of an empty anarchy system. Lawless has a meaning...
That bounties have any INFluence does not make sense in a lawless, anarchy enviroment

It's not in any faction's interest - by that argument - for factions to allow mission boards to exist for the other factions [1] and yet they all do so.

[1] Back in the old days I recall certain factions deliberately put their own systems into Lockdown to cut off that route to their enemies. I don't think anyone's tried that recently.

See above and as I write, it had already been switched off for some time, given my observations were right.

Trading only benefits the station owner, so is very easy to lock other factions out of.

True, my mistake, I meant (trading) missions.

Bounty hunting is an Acquisition and Reinforcement action. So you get merits only if:
- you're in a friendly system for your Power (Reinforcement)
- you're in a neutral but claimable system - so within 20/30 LY of your Power's Fortified/Stronghold systems (Acquisition)
If you're further away than that, no merits.

Also note: the merits are awarded instantly - you don't need to cash the actual bounties in at all. But ... if you don't cash them in on-site and return them to a friendly system instead, you get a 20% payout bonus. So while your system stays neutral, there's an incentive to do that.

Yes correct, but still something that can influence bgs through bounties cashed in system. As long as we have not pledged to any power it is an extra invitation to everyone around (in our case Torval and Denton, but soon probably as well ALD, LYR and Archer). So even if we will get Torval in now, as she has no bounty bonus, the system could and most probably will still be hunting ground for the mentioned powers.

But that does not adress the problem of us providing this casual playground and being punished for it.

The best defence here is a strong offence: stop your system being a valid Acquisition Target in the first place. Find all Fortified and Stronghold systems nearby and reduce them to Exploited status, and your system stops being targetable.
(If I've remembered correctly where you are, there's only four of them that would need taking out, and they belong to fairly weakly-supported Powers)

We are Screaming Eagles and not East India Company We would simply not have the manpower to take on this task. Technically it is an option, but realistically...
EDIT: As a matter of fact some of the largest pmfs are our neighbors (EIC is one of them), so even if we tried they'd just crush us, no matter the good diplomatic relations we maintain with them.

But I would think considerably fewer merits and credits, because the KWS is just providing a bounty at all rather than adding to the existing primary faction bounty.

Is this some new thing? I don't recall "bounty hunt in Anarchy space" ever being a recommendation for quick profits, nor the token fines being a particularly common occurrence or inconvenience for people whose aim is good enough to make money from bounty hunting to start with or who can go to a HazRES because they no longer need help from SysAuth to finish the job.

Back when stacking pirate massacre missions was a thing, everyone I knew would search for anarchy systems, as you could shoot everything, no matter if wanted or not. Especially in the early years of the game.
Also most of the anarchies disturbing PP1 were desintegrated by bounty hunting.

However, the main point is the INFluence on bgs, which is not logical.

Cheers,
Donald

 

[Yodebe]

The problem is that anarchy factions aren't anarchy, they're criminal organisations, and should be trated as such, and close to a photographic negative of 'Normal' factions.
'System security' should be 'gang members' and should hunt bounty hunters who have bounties they've collected, increasing the game-play for bounty hunters (the more bounties you have, the more risk of gang members hunting them) same as criminals face more risk as their crimes / notoriety goes up in a normal system.

Then everything would make sense.
maybe.