Pro-Xeno Roll Play

[Stelar 7]

That first sentence makes your entire feelings on the matter very clear. They're a sentient race on an equal technological footing with us, they are not "vermin".

The reason people say that is because they are showing great restraint. If they weren't, any attacked stations would be literally in a million pieces.

It's not an inferiority complex, it's a desire to take some hard truths and realise that we are the vast majority of the entire problem - I'm just sorry that you can't see it from any perspective except your own.

Oh?

I see you want to moalize but that isn't useful.

Goids have technology and they have a serious aggression problem.

They are vermin not because they are unintelligent, but because they are unreasonable. Expending as they please and agressivly attacking any race they encounter.

You get one talking and maybe I'll change my opinion. Until then they represent a threat to our civilizations and they offer only war as a method of interaction. We do the galaxy a favor by eliminating them.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

We do the galaxy a favor by eliminating them.

It is ok to say this from an in-game / role-play perspective. But on the Meta-level... when you think as a player, not the ED cmdr, the goids would surely do the galaxy a favour by annihilating us.

 

[Rainbro]

We have tried. Even if we haven't we know the Guardians tried, succeeded in decoding the Goid language and were only met with the same mindless hostility we encounter.

We have extremely little detail on this, and it was millions of years ago. The Guardian account also differs from our own experience, as mentioned earlier. And as previously explained, it's not mindless. It's targeted with a clear pattern of escalation in response to events.

They seed worlds with Barnacles which means they aren't quietly defending "their territory" they are expansionist.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Them having territory is a bad thing? The space seeded with barnacles has not changed in millions of years. Humanity has also expanded.

If you want to know what a reasonable response looks like, watch the Guardian history. When they found barnacles they studied them, same as us.

We have no idea what they did with the barnacles beyond that the planets were "occupied".

That's not "theft" there was no one there to steal from. At best its a misunderstanding.

It stops being a misunderstanding when it is abundantly clear that they consider it theft.

A reasonable farmer would talk to the folks taking their crops, or at least respond when they were talked to. Especially when the conversation starters had gone to the trouble of learning their language.

We are not yet at this stage, but again, we have no idea how the Guardian talks went down. They may have done much the same as us, and stubbornly continued smashing barnacles in spite of the attacks it caused.

Unreasonable is making demands and refusing to accept any outcome but what is demanded. A total lack of compromise. That is emblematic of Goid behavior.

Do you think humanity is being unreasonable, by demanding full access to all meta-alloys we find, and shooting any Thargoids that get in the way?

If you want to feel bad because humanity stumbled into the goids thousands of years ago and could have been nicer when we did it?

...no? It wasn't thousands of years ago. The Federation and Empire began to occupy the Pleiades and its barnacles in mid-3302. The Thargoids returned in January 3303.

Where we are is at war with a species who adapts slowly and doesn't communicate or negotiate. They just attack.

Right, because humanity has been really good with the communication and negotiation and relentless attacking. And as previously mentioned, they can adapt just fine? I don't know why that's an issue.

Goids attack humans, they attacked pilots and ships and stations unaffiliated with the Feds.

I saved this one for last because it's a big can of worms that will probably lead to me regurgitating an entire timeline. To save time, can you elaborate on the significance of this to you? I assume it's not just as-written, seeing as humans attack all goids.

If this is to do with the accusation of "mindless violence", then my short response would be that you're leaving out the series of escalations that have occurered. There's a whole history here, and admittedly the order of events is not easy to come by nowadays.

 

[Stelar 7]

We have extremely little detail on this, and it was millions of years ago. The Guardian account also differs from our own experience, as mentioned earlier. And as previously explained, it's not mindless. It's targeted with a clear pattern of escalation in response to events.

That's your paradolia, I see escalation but it's just broad based escalation. My guess would be the same way they locked onto Guardian tech as "enemy" they probably did the same wirh Fed and Empire.

In any case I dispute your narative of cleat escalation as paradolia, the point at the end where they just generally escalate is the evidence. Your claim was they only attack when attacked or provoked or someone has meta alloys, and I can say from experience they aren't that nuanced. I've had meta alloys and fired on them and Interceptors will just move off. I've had them jump me before and after being fired upon.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Them having territory is a bad thing? The space seeded with barnacles has not changed in millions of years. Humanity has also expanded.

Yup, a territorial and hostile alien is a bad thing. The Galaxy is big but not infinate. If we both expand and we can't cooperate then they need to go.

We have no idea what they did with the barnacles beyond that the planets were "occupied".

So then there is no sense speculating that they did anything.

It stops being a misunderstanding when it is abundantly clear that they consider it theft.

Theft is a human term. This is anthromoporphism again. Also demonstrably false. I've harvested meta alloy for hours in the presence of Interceptors and they are so daft they ignored me even when fired upon. (Don't use an Exe rifle though that causes some kind of coma while chasing the goid away)

We are not yet at this stage, but again, we have no idea how the Guardian talks went down. They may have done much the same as us, and stubbornly continued smashing barnacles in spite of the attacks it caused.

Now you are putting words in our mouths and the Guardians. We know that the Guardians went to the trouble of learning tue Goids language and speaking to them in it and got nothing but violence for their efforts.

Do you think humanity is being unreasonable, by demanding full access to all meta-alloys we find, and shooting any Thargoids that get in the way?

Where was that demand issued?

Humanity is being unreasonable. We haven't distributed Guardian weapons to our militaries. We should have shutdown field neitralizers on all our major stations and take killing them a lot more seriously.

...no? It wasn't thousands of years ago. The Federation and Empire began to occupy the Pleiades and its barnacles in mid-3302. The Thargoids returned in January 3303.

Ah my bad, should have said hundreds of years. Years where they began escalation grabbing pilots from space then attacking and culminating in our use of a bio weapon before the current reengagment.

Right, because humanity has been really good with the communication and negotiation and relentless attacking. And as previously mentioned, they can adapt just fine? I don't know why that'sreenactment.

They can't adapt just fine. Millions of years ago they had the same engagement with the Guardians we sew with us. Two species meet and Goids relentlessly attack. Tissue samples from their ships were of use in modern times at Guardian sites and the ancient wrecks are nearly identical to modern ones.

We went from stone hand axes to a type 2 civilization in less time than that.

I saved this one for last because it's a big can of worms that will probably lead to me regurgitating an entire timeline. To save time, can you elaborate on the significance of this to you? I assume it's not just as-written, seeing as humans attack all goids.

If this is to do with the accusation of "mindless violence", then my short response would be that you're leaving out the series of escalations that have occurered. There's a whole history here, and admittedly the order of events is not easy to come by nowadays.

I suggest you read the wiki article I posted before. The pattern of wanton and escalating violence has repeated three times. First with the Guardians and then twice with us and the only thing that gets them to relent is a brutal beating.

History aptly demonstrates that violence is the only tool they use and the only response they yield to.

It is ok to say this from an in-game / role-play perspective. But on the Meta-level... when you think as a player, not the ED cmdr, the goids would surely do the galaxy a favour by annihilating us.

I'm not really sure what you are on about here. On a out of character meta level the galaxy is a toy we built for our amusement. On a level of what is or is not good, humans define good and bad.

The only stuff better than humanity is imaginary. Humans rock.

 

[Julian McCoy]

The behaviour they exhibit in our case is significantly different to that of the Guardians from the records though. And bear in mind, unreliable narrator because Ram Tah has an agenda of his own with a blatant conflict of interest.

The key sticking point in the "communication will fail" approach, is that the Guardians did not retreat from Thargoid space. We know they are territorial, it's the first rule of diplomacy that when you're trying to communicate in a friendly way you don't sit and occupy territory that they see as theirs and hope they'll consider it lost.

A full withdrawal from Thargoid territory in the various Nebulae is most likely what's required. And I'm all for it. Most of the stations out there are modular Orbis or Ocellus designs, which can be fitted with hyperdrive units. We can just jump them out fully assembled.

It will take a lot of effort on our part to steer things in the right direction, but we can succeed where others have failed. That's really what humanity is about, co-operation and friendship.

"I can't try to save humanity without holding on to what makes me human." - Unknown, circa 2153.

 

[Rainbro]

(post)

We're going in circles here. Most of your post has already been addressed or is mistaken. When I have time later today, I think I'll get around to posting that timeline, because I think we're operating on different understandings of it. The wiki has most of the required information, but is ultimately just a summary that lacks certain details.

Before that, I think it'd be useful to restate our positions here. Correct me if I'm not correctly understanding yours.

My position is that, based on the Thargoids observable behaviour both ingame and in lore, this conflict is a territorial one resulting from humanity's expansion into the Pleiades and other areas of Thargoid territory, as well as exploitation of the barnacles and other actions taken as the conflict escalated. I believe that as a result, this conflict could have been or still can be avoided by withdrawing from Thargoid territory. The Guardian account is useful, but is lacking crucial detail and has multiple discrepancies with what we observe. Blame for the conflict, if it has to be assigned, ultimately lies with those manipulating humanity's response in order to escalate the conflict for their own gain.

My understanding of your position is that the Thargoids are inherently aggressive, and would attack regardless of what humanity does. This is primarily based on the Guardian account of their conflict with the Thargoids. Their aggression is due to seeing humanity or any other species as an enemy that must be destroyed. Humanity is also inherently superior to the Thargoids due to our ability to rapidly adapt.

Beyond the ideological stuff, both our arguments seem to hinge on the nature or reason for the Thargoid's aggression.

 

[Stelar 7]

The behaviour they exhibit in our case is significantly different to that of the Guardians from the records though. And bear in mind, unreliable narrator because Ram Tah has an agenda of his own with a blatant conflict of interest.

The key sticking point in the "communication will fail" approach, is that the Guardians did not retreat from Thargoid space. We know they are territorial, it's the first rule of diplomacy that when you're trying to communicate in a friendly way you don't sit and occupy territory that they see as theirs and hope they'll consider it lost.

A full withdrawal from Thargoid territory in the various Nebulae is most likely what's required. And I'm all for it. Most of the stations out there are modular Orbis or Ocellus designs, which can be fitted with hyperdrive units. We can just jump them out fully assembled.

It will take a lot of effort on our part to steer things in the right direction, but we can succeed where others have failed. That's really what humanity is about, co-operation and friendship.

Lol, I see no evidence that we can succeed by retreating. Just claims that surely this time things will be different.

Thargs don't talk, therefore they are unreasonable. They are also expansionist and agressive. Galaxy is better without them.

My understanding of your position is that the Thargoids are inherently aggressive, and would attack regardless of what humanity does. This is primarily based on the Guardian account of their conflict with the Thargoids. Their aggression is due to seeing humanity or any other species as an enemy that must be destroyed. Humanity is also inherently superior to the Thargoids due to our ability to rapidly adapt.

Beyond the ideological stuff, both our arguments seem to hinge on the nature or reason for the Thargoid's aggression.

Actually your argument hinges on the reason.

It assumes we can gain agency by retreating. Maybe we can, I see no evidence of it but we have got evidence hitting them back, hard, gets a withdrawal.

My main point is that they don't communicate. I'm not willing to make assumptions about their motives or intentions. They don't communicate and they do expand. That is a recipie for conflict eventually. It's a finite galaxy.

For two groups to coexist cooperatively they must be able to communicate. Since the goids don't then even if we are the bad guys and we uproot millions of people and billions of credits we buy, at absolute best, a respite from the conflict. Until they expand and we once again find ourselves in "their territory".

If they can't be reasoned with and they are willing to kill us, we can only return that favor.

Show me a goid who can negotiate and I'll be willing to alter that opinion. Until then they are a demonstrated menace and it behooves humanity to treat them like Polio.

 

[Rainbro]

Lol, I see no evidence that we can succeed by retreating. Just claims that surely this time things will be different.

"This time"? We've never tried it. It is based on the premise that this is a territorial conflict, which is undeniable.

Maybe we can, I see no evidence of it but we have got evidence hitting them back, hard, gets a withdrawal.

And then they counterattack, and we're back at square one. This has happened every single time, and all it does is escalate the conflict further. To pick one example, following attacks on the Federal and Imperial convoys taking meta-alloys from the Pleiades, Aegis launched Operation Andronicus, as well as a second unnamed operation, to kill as many Thargoids as possible in the region. Presumably, the goal of this was to protect those convoys.

One month later, the Thargoids came back and disabled several Aegis stations. The first station attacks, following the first Thargoid massacre operations. That's not a withdrawal.

I suppose it could be argued that we just need to kill them more so that they permanently withdraw - this theory should be tested by Salvation (again) soon enough, judging by today's GalNet. We'll see how well that goes.

My main point is that they don't communicate.

Neither are we. Incidentally, human-Thargoid communication and cooperation has occured multiple times in the official Elite Dangerous novels. Perhaps they are talking and being ignored? After all, a peaceful end to the conflict would cost us in meta alloys merely to save a few lives. Easy decision for the powers that be. They want the war to continue and have taken numerous deliberate steps to escalate it - like Operation Andronicus to trigger the first station attacks, and the transmitters to bring them into the bubble later on.

Since the goids don't then even if we are the bad guys and we uproot millions of people and billions of credits we buy, at absolute best, a respite from the conflict. Until they expand and we once again find ourselves in "their territory".

The galaxy is plenty big enough. The Thargoids have not expanded their territory in millions of years, and we currently occupy a miniscule portion of the galaxy. Unless we're thinking ahead thousands of years to when the entire galaxy is colonised, but maybe we can cross that bridge when we come to it? Right now, the problem is not lack of space, but where we choose to expand. And the lure of the meta alloys is affecting that choice heavily.

 

[Stelar 7]

"This time"? We've never tried it. It is based on the premise that this is a territorial conflict, which is undeniable.

We absolutely have tried it, from that captured whatever near Jameson's grave to our attempts to decode what they see as their territory. Heck broadcast in Local or System and you have communication attempts.

The difference is we have evidence from the Guardians that they don't communicate. You amd others have tried to disparage this evidence with various unsubstantiated claims but the main problem seems to be its a fact inconvenient to your narative.

And then they counterattack, and we're back at square one. This has happened every single time, and all it does is escalate the conflict further. To pick one example, following attacks on the Federal and Imperial convoys taking meta-alloys from the Pleiades, Aegis launched Operation Andronicus, as well as a second unnamed operation, to kill as many Thargoids as possible in the region. Presumably, the goal of this was to protect those convoys.

One month later, the Thargoids came back and disabled several Aegis stations. The first station attacks, following the first Thargoid massacre operations. That's not a withdrawal.

Some examples escalate others don't. They have been bothering that poor megaship in Deciat as long as I can remember. We know, again from the Guardians, that hit hard enough they leave. Heck Thanks to Jameson we had years of peace.

I suppose it could be argued that we just need to kill them more so that they permanently withdraw - this theory should be tested by Salvation (again) soon enough, judging by today's GalNet. We'll see how well that goes.

I vote we kill them entirely.

Neither are we. Incidentally, human-Thargoid communication and cooperation has occured multiple times in the official Elite Dangerous novels. Perhaps they are talking and being ignored? After all, a peaceful end to the conflict would cost us in meta alloys merely to save a few lives. Easy decision for the powers that be. They want the war to continue and have taken numerous deliberate steps to escalate it - like Operation Andronicus to trigger the first station attacks, and the transmitters to bring them into the bubble later on.

Wasn't going Ooc but the novels show a very different kind of goid. I wouldn't trust them as cannon. Those books also had lots and lots of cooperative aliens, all missing atm.

The galaxy is plenty big enough. The Thargoids have not expanded their territory in millions of years, and we currently occupy a miniscule portion of the galaxy. Unless we're thinking ahead thousands of years to when the entire galaxy is colonised, but maybe we can cross that bridge when we come to it? Right now, the problem is not lack of space, but where we choose to expand. And the lure of the meta alloys is affecting that choice heavily.

The galaxy is not plenty big enough. Delaying the battle just makes it bigger and more horrible when it comes.

Best to purge them now.

 

[Rainbro]

We absolutely have tried it, from that captured whatever near Jameson's grave to our attempts to decode what they see as their territory. Heck broadcast in Local or System and you have communication attempts.

This was referring to trying to end the territorial conflict by retreating from their territory. We have only continued to expand, first within the Pleiades, and then into Witchhead and the Coalsack. California too, but that was actually completely free of Thargoid attacks for almost the entire duration of this conflict due to the lack of large scale meta-alloy harvesting there, until Delaine and Sirius showed up there anyway.

Some examples escalate others don't.

The pattern is clear in the vast majority cases, and the few times where the Thargoids didn't counterattack is contrary to the idea of mindless aggression. Mycoid was a huge attack, and yet when the Thargoids returned, they were peaceful until this entire seperate conflict escalated. Something else is going on.

They have been bothering that poor megaship in Deciat as long as I can remember.

I doubt this can be taken as canon, Frontier just don't bother to clean them up. There isn't a reasonable explanation for why Thargoids would be attacking the same already-disabled megaships for years when they can disable a station in under an hour and be gone again.

I vote we kill them entirely.

Okay, well, we'll just have to disagree on ideological grounds there. On practical grounds, though, that is risking escalating the conflict to a point where we can't handle it anymore. We are still helpless against station attacks, so we really don't need the Thargoids to decide to just go all-out on us and start fully tearing up stations and attacking populated worlds.

Wasn't going Ooc but the novels show a very different kind of goid. I wouldn't trust them as cannon. Those books also had lots and lots of cooperative aliens, all missing atm.

The ED novels (not the original Elite novels) are canon, written with Frontier lore. As of yet, there's nothing that contradicts with that lore - it's just not public knowledge ingame. But sure, it's probably best to take evidence primarily from the game, but it has to be remembered that is in-universe information. Just because the Thargoids aren't making diplomatic overtures to random pilots doesn't mean they're not talking to those in power.

The galaxy is not plenty big enough. Delaying the battle just makes it bigger and more horrible when it comes.

The bubble is currently around 20,000 systems give or take. Dunno how big the Pleiades and others are, plus permit-locked sectors like Col 70... let's say a million as a wild overestimation. That leaves us 99.9% of the galaxy uncolonised. If Jameson brought us "peace" of a few hundred years... I think that should last us a good while. Except there aren't meta-alloys in that 99.9%, so it's really not all that attractive to those in power.