PvE Missions in a Viper Mk3

[Scoob]

I haven't been doing much of any ship to ship combat since Odyssey came out, but these claims long predate that, and in ~7k hours and some ~60k NPC kills of all sorts, I have never seen a (human) NPC ship clearly do something that is not possible for a CMDR to do, with flight assist enabled, unless it was a bug that was openly acknowledged by Frontier.

Oh, I believe you, there are oddities others have reported - with video evidence - that I've never seen in my thousands of hours - I've been around since the Beta. Indeed, lots of people have never seen the "Wanted" ship, changing to "Clean" the moment the Player shoots it once bug - myself (and others) got a lot of doubt on that...until the video(s) of it were shown. I'm sure there are numerous examples of issues some in the community experience but others, with thousands of hours, have never seen. This one is the same. It seems to rear its head from time to time. I had it clearly appearing last night - first time in a long while (pre Odyssey perhaps) to be honest - yet during my play session just now, everything was working perfectly. Same ship (Chieftan) same HAZ Res in LHS 317 Dangerous and Deadly Anacondas once again. Sure, there may well have been outfitting and Engineering differences, but the ships today did nothing I'd consider unusual and I had no issues staying on their tail. They'd still boost, turn and try to face me of course, but they'd quickly start moving along the vector they are facing, making it easy for me to slip back behind them. Much of the time they never even managed to face me doing this manoeuvre.

I can't explain what's going on here, but you've got to admit that seeing something like an Anaconda, travelling backwards at speeds of over 400 m/s for extended periods as the player closes on them (face to face) is going to raise some suspicion that things aren't perhaps working quite right at that moment. I'm glad you've never experienced it, it can be a little frustrating when it happens, but myself and a number of others have.

Like I said, I'm not overly concerned about it and I've not seen it much in quite a few hours of play - though I have just come back from a bit of a break. It was just a bit of an "Oh, that one again" moment last night, when my 500 m/s+ Boost was barely seeing me close in on a reversing Anaconda.

As an aside, reversing can totally confuse the AI. My current ship has fixed Long-Range Pulse Lasers - more for the damage falloff reduction than the outright range - and Rail Guns. I was fighting an enemy (Clipper) that started to get the best of me, thanks to his two wing-men. I boosted away, primarily to let my shields recover, then flipped over and started shooting him from over 5km away, while reversing - though not fast. At first he made a bee line towards me, closing the distance fast, but as I did more damage he eventually broke off, flying away for a bit before heading back. I was landing shots the entire time. At no point did he enter his weapon's range, so I killed him without being hit again. If he'd continued closing on me, I'd have had more of a challenge. One of his surviving allies (Viper IV) did eventually close in on me while I was concentrating on him, but that one-on-one fight was easier.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

This is an interesting thread: in my 2500 hours of Elite I have never really used a Viper III, but I might now find the motivation to engineer one to a decent level.
I'm curious to see how well it can do ..

 

[Moriarte]

An alternative approach, for entertainment and science!

Source: https://youtu.be/mBzZ7tyeeqc


The speed (695m/s) in combination with fa/off and NPC AI unoriginality allows to avoid most of the damage, so there isn't much need to stuff it with armor and shields. This Viper has 596 points of hull and one small MRP. A modded fast-shooting long range point defense turret, although, in retrospect, I could have bought two PDT's for better peace of mind. I might record another one with deadlies and elites, when I find them on my bulletin boards. The outcome shouldn't be much different, just takes slightly longer.

A vulture at the end was really giving me trouble, when tried to tag it with Cytos. Which is interesting, and a testament to it's thruster strength. Then again, the smaller the ship, the easier it is to dispatch with rails, so, not a big deal.

Overall, after trying cytos for the first time, I have to say they are an impressive thing to fill size 1 hardpoint slots on some ships. Yes, there is a learning curve and It takes a while to find the shooting sweet spot, but they are definitely not random, when engineered to Long Range. Just a little tricky at first. Incidentally, Viper is a good platform for these bursts, as it's one of just few ships, that can maintain tight formation with prey, when in fa/off.

EDIT -- Here's another one, against dangerous/deadly NPC's in a similar scenario.

Spoiler: Dangerous/Deadly

Source: https://youtu.be/wtKCf0r3xHM

 

[Northpin]

Indeed i was about to suggest that small ships really need cytos and then anything that can kill PP.
I have a DBS with 2x cytos and 2x dumbfires that i use it in kill pirate lords - sure, that usually means a single Anaconda (or another large ship) or rarely a FDL
It may not work that good against a pack of small/mediium ships, but still - cytos are the key here

 

[Moriarte]

This is an interesting thread: in my 2500 hours of Elite I have never really used a Viper III, but I might now find the motivation to engineer one to a decent level.
I'm curious to see how well it can do ..

Do it! There are few things about the Viper that stand out. It’s ultra small profile makes it immune to a lot of things. For example, it would take a master to shoot down Viper with plasma accel. Gimballed MC’s/beams won’t do much damage and frag cloud, if sent your way, is, probably 4 times larger than the profile of the ship. Other gimballed weapons are very ineffective against Viper, provided it is flown with evasion. Personally, the more I come back to the ship, the more stuff I take out. My Vipers start to sing to me @ 700m/s. (or thereabouts) Of course, there are different schools of thought on how to equip it and it’s difficult to get it right.

One thing is known for sure. It is weak to hitscan. (and lots of packhounds) Even at 900 m/s, opposition’s rails/beam will burn Viper in seconds. But not many people fly with fixed hitscan on board and can use it with precision against such a small target! So, if you don’t have hitscan, this snake will eat you. Slowly, but surely. It is constantly underestimated by newer players.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Do it! There are few things about the Viper that stand out. It’s ultra small profile makes it immune to a lot of things. For example, it would take a master to shoot down Viper with plasma accel. Gimballed MC’s/beams won’t do much damage and frag cloud, if sent your way, is, probably 4 times larger than the profile of the ship. Other gimballed weapons are very ineffective against Viper, provided it is flown with evasion. Personally, the more I come back to the ship, the more stuff I take out. My Vipers start to sing to me @ 700m/s. (or thereabouts) Of course, there are different schools of thought on how to equip it and it’s difficult to get it right.

One thing is known for sure. It is weak to hitscan. (and lots of packhounds) Even at 900 m/s, opposition’s rails/beam will burn Viper in seconds. But not many people fly with fixed hitscan on board and can use it with precision against such a small target! So, if you don’t have hitscan, this snake will eat you. Slowly, but surely. It is constantly underestimated by newer players.

It is way too underpoered to deal with bigger enemies. Anything that hasnt a large HP isnt worth flying. Viper has one good thing and that's speed and enigh mounts to have fun with dumbfires.
Very niche because shield make that useless in 90% of cases. Good for base assault.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

My Vipers start to sing to me @ 700m/s. (or thereabouts) Of course, there are different schools of thought on how to equip it and it’s difficult to get it right.

I tend put a lot of hull protection on smaller ships, but I would also use a biweave. However it wouldn’t be light enough for the advanced thrusters, would you say they are needed, or just a question of preference?

 

[Morbad]

In order to get a better comparison with known prior performance, I just tried Incursion: Competent again...struggled against the first ship and was physically spent--as in unable to use my right hand--half way though the second.

Prior to taking a break from Horizons/ship combat and dismantling my control/seating setup, I could complete that entire challenge scenario on demand without ever taking hull damage, with just the beam lasers. Indeed, for as long as it's existed, I've never been able to come close to failing it, until now.

Since neither the challenge scenario nor the NPC AI appear to have changed in the slightest, I have to revise my estimation of the sort of encounter I posted earlier. It had to have been the ship doing most of the work, and even an average pilot should be able to match that performance, using controls they are comfortable with.

Currently, I can't change pips or boost without rotating my whole stick; can't use yaw or forward/reverse thrust without moving my chair out of position and hitting my knees on my desk; have to spend more effort to keep the stick from lifting off the table and sliding around than actually rotating the ship; and can't intuitively gauge throttle position because the throttle base itself slides. Vertical/lateral thrust is about the only action I can perform normally, because that's a thumbstick on my throttle.

At a bit of an impasse here...I could put some Monstertech mounts on my chair, but that's a fair investment and still wouldn't let me use my rudder pedals comfortably, nor sit as close to my display as I'd like, and I'm not getting rid of my new $500 chair. Whole HOTAS setup is due for a replacement as well, and an equivalent or superior setup (can't realistically go CH again because quality has declined so much since my first set that I'm unlikely to find a brand new set to be as good as my repeatedly repaired stuff) is another 500-600 dollar outlay. I could just focus on mastering the KBM controls I was using with Odyssey, but I really don't like them enough to have the inclination to do so.

It is way too underpoered to deal with bigger enemies.

TTKs against bigger NPC enemies often aren't appreciably longer than the smaller ones. They only have a 2-3 fold advantage in effective health, but are generally much easier to keep up with and core out.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

In order to get a better comparison with known prior performance, I just tried Incursion: Competent again...struggled against the first ship and was physically spent--as in unable to use my right hand--half way though the second.

Prior to taking a break from Horizons/ship combat and dismantling my control/seating setup, I could complete that entire challenge scenario on demand without ever taking hull damage, with just the beam lasers. Indeed, for as long as it's existed, I've never been able to come close to failing it, until now.

Since neither the challenge scenario nor the NPC AI appear to have changed in the slightest, I have to revise my estimation of the sort of encounter I posted earlier. It had to have been the ship doing most of the work, and even an average pilot should be able to match that performance, using controls they are comfortable with.

Currently, I can't change pips or boost without rotating my whole stick; can't use yaw or forward/reverse thrust without moving my chair out of position and hitting my knees on my desk; have to spend more effort to keep the stick from lifting off the table and sliding around than actually rotating the ship; and can't intuitively gauge throttle position because the throttle base itself slides. Vertical/lateral thrust is about the only action I can perform normally, because that's a thumbstick on my throttle.

At a bit of an impasse here...I could put some Monstertech mounts on my chair, but that's a fair investment and still wouldn't let me use my rudder pedals comfortably, nor sit as close to my display as I'd like, and I'm not getting rid of my new $500 chair. Whole HOTAS setup is due for a replacement as well, and an equivalent or superior setup (can't realistically go CH again because quality has declined so much since my first set that I'm unlikely to find a brand new set to be as good as my repeatedly repaired stuff) is another 500-600 dollar outlay. I could just focus on mastering the KBM controls I was using with Odyssey, but I really don't like them enough to have the inclination to do so.



TTKs against bigger NPC enemies often aren't appreciably longer than the smaller ones. They only have a 2-3 fold advantage in effective health, but are generally much easier to keep up with and core out.

I had a similar problem with my office chair, so I replaced the wheels with Teflon pads, that fit in the same hole as the castor wheels. Also had to clamp the hotas to the desk. I’m still a very average pilot though

 

[Morbad]

I had a similar problem with my office chair, so I replaced the wheels with Teflon pads, that fit in the same hole as the castor wheels. Also had to clamp the hotas to the desk. I’m still a very average pilot though

I had a similar setup on this same desk with my old chair, but due to differences in dimension of this chair and my unwillingness to leave adhesive strips on my desk (and the incompatability of clamps), I don't see any good options unless I want to replace my chair and go back to my desk being hard to use for anything else.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In order to get a better comparison with known prior performance, I just tried Incursion: Competent again...struggled against the first ship and was physically spent--as in unable to use my right hand--half way though the second.

Prior to taking a break from Horizons/ship combat and dismantling my control/seating setup, I could complete that entire challenge scenario on demand without ever taking hull damage, with just the beam lasers. Indeed, for as long as it's existed, I've never been able to come close to failing it, until now.

Since neither the challenge scenario nor the NPC AI appear to have changed in the slightest, I have to revise my estimation of the sort of encounter I posted earlier. It had to have been the ship doing most of the work, and even an average pilot should be able to match that performance, using controls they are comfortable with.

Currently, I can't change pips or boost without rotating my whole stick; can't use yaw or forward/reverse thrust without moving my chair out of position and hitting my knees on my desk; have to spend more effort to keep the stick from lifting off the table and sliding around than actually rotating the ship; and can't intuitively gauge throttle position because the throttle base itself slides. Vertical/lateral thrust is about the only action I can perform normally, because that's a thumbstick on my throttle.

At a bit of an impasse here...I could put some Monstertech mounts on my chair, but that's a fair investment and still wouldn't let me use my rudder pedals comfortably, nor sit as close to my display as I'd like, and I'm not getting rid of my new $500 chair. Whole HOTAS setup is due for a replacement as well, and an equivalent or superior setup (can't realistically go CH again because quality has declined so much since my first set that I'm unlikely to find a brand new set to be as good as my repeatedly repaired stuff) is another 500-600 dollar outlay. I could just focus on mastering the KBM controls I was using with Odyssey, but I really don't like them enough to have the inclination to do so.



TTKs against bigger NPC enemies often aren't appreciably longer than the smaller ones. They only have a 2-3 fold advantage in effective health, but are generally much easier to keep up with and core out.

They also have more internals for more hull reinforcement bullet sponge.
Coupled with the minuscule shields of Viper and they often arent alone the increase in ttk is enough to make these encounters very dangerous.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Get one of these instead? ;-)

Source: https://youtu.be/1uzHazKkZ4o

 

[Morbad]

They also have more internals for more hull reinforcement bullet sponge.
Coupled with the minuscule shields of Viper and they often arent alone the increase in ttk is enough to make these encounters very dangerous.

In a Viper III, most of the TTK against something like a Corvette or Anaconda is spent out of the cone of fire of most of their weapons.

Get one of these instead? ;-)

Source: https://youtu.be/1uzHazKkZ4o

Won't fit in my office and since I'm not playing any other flight (or driving) sims than Elite: Dangerous currently, I'd hard for me to justify anything costly or not easily portable.

I need to find some controls with a lower z-height and mount them to a steel plate or something...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

In a Viper III, most of the TTK against something like a Corvette or Anaconda is spent out of the cone of fire of most of their weapons.



Won't fit in my office and since I'm not playing any other flight (or driving) sims than Elite: Dangerous currently, I'd hard for me to justify anything costly or not easily portable.

I need to find some controls with a lower z-height and mount them to a steel plate or something...

I 1v1 you can stay out of line of fire, but space has no woods, no trenches, no buildings. Add more enemies and you will be hit.

 

[Morbad]

I 1v1 you can stay out of line of fire, but space has no woods, no trenches, no buildings. Add more enemies and you will be hit.

There are very few scenarios where you'll encounter multiple, hostile, large ships simultaneously, without the ability to separate them from each other.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

There are very few scenarios where you'll encounter multiple, hostile, large ships simultaneously, without the ability to separate them from each other.

The ambush in signal source being one. And separating stuff in CZ wasnt what I was good at. It was more of an lemming experienxce and conga lining. But it doesnt require multiple large enemies, just multiple ones.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The ambush in signal source being one. And separating stuff in CZ wasnt what I was good at. It was more of an lemming experienxce and conga lining. But it doesnt require multiple large enemies, just multiple ones.

Thinking about it, I-War did it very good with shields and guns. Required you to fly perpendicular to target to have good effect and bring two guns to bear.

 

[Moriarte]

Whole HOTAS setup is due for a replacement as well, and an equivalent or superior setup (can't realistically go CH again because quality has declined so much since my first set that I'm unlikely to find a brand new set to be as good as my repeatedly repaired stuff) is another 500-600 dollar outlay.

I’ve been using x52 pro all these years, highly recommend. It’s 150 euro around here, fair price for such kit. The first kit lived for 6 years of heavy duty use, way more than expected, then, finally couple buttons started failing, so I threw it away and bought a second one, which I am happily using since. In the interim, I also bought Gunfighter MkIII, but found it completely unsuitable for high adrenaline precision shooting, while assist-off flying in elite dangerous. I’d say, it’s more suitable for atmospheric flight due to the design of the mechanism. Or maybe not great for me. My palms are on the large side, still can’t reach some buttons on gunfighter. Not a fan of “under the right thumb” buttons on joysticks. I appreciate full grip. (Again, shooting precision)

I can’t stress enough how good x52 pro joystick is for space sims. It’s everywhere - ergo, ease of macro programming, price, soft-sprung precision. And built quality is alright, for a 20 year old design, hehe.

I tend put a lot of hull protection on smaller ships, but I would also use a biweave. However it wouldn’t be light enough for the advanced thrusters, would you say they are needed, or just a question of preference?

Sorry, missed your ping. If you mean enhanced thrusters, then yes, they are an absolute must.

 

[d8veh]

Higher level NPC's seem to be able to pull off...erm, unconventional manoeuvres. I like to jump into one of my several smaller ship for some PvE as it can be great fun. So, rather than my being in a relatively slow-turning barge like a Corvette, Anaconda or Type 10, I'm in a nimble Cobra Mk III or other such ship.

Last night, while in the aforementioned Cobra Mk III, I attacked a Dangerous Anaconda in a HAZ Res, so I had no assist from local security - just how I like it. Being significantly faster an more manoeuvrable I attempted to stay on his six a thus able to avoid much of his fire. It worked, for a short while each time I got behind him, but after a few seconds the Anaconda would pull off the following manoeuvre:

- Anaconda would boost away from me, momentarily gaining a little (insignificant) distance - I'm much faster - though I'd still be within 200m or so easily.
- Just after it'd boosted in a straight line approximately away from me, it would appear to maintain that velocity and vector, while slowly turning to face me. Acting almost as if it's using FA Off (which the AI can't apparently)
- During this manoeuvre, I'm still travelling along the same vector and I've sped up to compensate, so am still well under 200m away.
- No amount of vertical or horizontal strafe (my ship is fast at this) seems to be able to compensate for the target's rotation, and I cannot stay on its tail.
- In essence, the Anaconda has managed to momentarily gain some distance, but I compensate and remain close easily. He then rotates to face me while still flying along the same vector. While my own vector adjustments to stay on his tail seem to be readily compensated for, as he continues to fly away from me.

Now, when I first encountered this years ago, before I hit Elite in combat, I assumed I was just seeing improved AI behaviour due to my own increase in combat rank. I posted how I was impressed to see an AI using the exact same FA Off and flip manoeuvre that I'd used myself. However, I was told that the "AI doesn't use FA Off" so no one could really explain what I was seeing - a ship flying away from me (along the same vector) while also turning to face me, then maintain that vector and speed and shooting me.

Bottom line, it should be pretty effortless to stay on the tail of a large ship like the Anaconda, Type 10, Corvette etc. in a smaller and very nimble (engineered) ship like the Cobra Mk III. However, such ships can regularly out-turn me while maintaining the same vector and end up basically reversing while facing me. I can utilise boost turn in order to break their LoS on me, which of course I do, I don't want to be shot. This manoeuvre though doesn't seem quite legit to me unless the AI can utilise FA Off as these ships appear to be doing.

I cannot explain what's going on under the hood here, but higher-level AI-controlled larger ships seem to be able to move in a way they shouldn't be able to, without utilised FA off.

For the record, I LOVE getting up really close to my targets - I'm a fan of Frags and Efficient weapons - so it's not like I'm so far away that these ships have room to manoeuvre, I'm right on their tail.

Anyway, this is something we've (my wingmate and I) noticed as we went up in combat ranks. When he was a couple of ranks lower than me, and he initiated the instance (first to arrive) we'd not see this. If on the other hand I arrived first, we'd generally face tougher foes and see this manoeuvre being utilised. We've both long since been Elite now though, so it doesn't matter which of us arrives first.

For an NPC, FA off and FA on are the same thing because the ship is controlled by AI. The AI controls each individual thruster to do what it wants.

 

[Morbad]

I’ve been using x52 pro all these years, highly recommend. It’s 150 euro around here, fair price for such kit. The first kit lived for 6 years of heavy duty use, way more than expected, then, finally couple buttons started failing, so I threw it away and bought a second one, which I am happily using since. In the interim, I also bought Gunfighter MkIII, but found it completely unsuitable for high adrenaline precision shooting, while assist-off flying in elite dangerous. I’d say, it’s more suitable for atmospheric flight due to the design of the mechanism. Or maybe not great for me. My palms are on the large side, still can’t reach some buttons on gunfighter. Not a fan of “under the right thumb” buttons on joysticks. I appreciate full grip. (Again, shooting precision)

I can’t stress enough how good x52 pro joystick is for space sims. It’s everywhere - ergo, ease of macro programming, price, soft-sprung precision. And built quality is alright, for a 20 year old design, hehe.

Had an X36 way back when, which I liked a lot, and I tried the X45, which I didn't. The X45, X52(Pro), and X56 all share that vertical spring and cup resistance system that I was never keen on. They lasted longer than the rubber gasket/boot on the X36, but still eroded pretty quickly and didn't provide as smooth resistance, in my experience. The X52 Pro is also lacking all the axes I like; the mouse nipple on the throttle isn't analog and doesn't have the range of motion I'd want even if it was.

I do have issues with fine precision on my CH stick, but (assuming I have it mounted securely) this is mostly down to the fundamentally poor resolution of the 8-bit pots and the increasing wobble in my aging sample, rather than grip, though I do have some issues with the grip as well. I had considered the Gunfighter, but had concerns over the grip's size and bulk...might try one of the Gladiator options.

For an NPC, FA off and FA on are the same thing because the ship is controlled by AI. The AI controls each individual thruster to do what it wants.

NPCs are still bound by the constraints of flight assist (acceleration and velocity caps), and CMDRs can (with the right binds and practice) apply thrust precisely in any vector.