PvP Combat, Engineering and Premium Ammo

I understand that some of you don't like the idea of gathering materials for Premium ammo (although it seems like a logical way to limit it's uses - I always enjoyed that management aspect in certain games - you know, I have 4 rare magnum bullets I found earlier, should I use it now, or save for later.. etc ),
but apart from that - am I to understand that you guys basically don't have anything against those long shootouts?
I absolutely vote for a complete balance pass that both reduces time to kill on PvP vessels and doesn't screw over traders or explorers who need stacked booster outfits to survive against alpha strike frag builds for example.
I don't vote for a system where I reduce a PvP fight (something I like) by 6 minutes (out of 18) and instead have to grind 30 minutes to get my premium ammo (something I don't like).
 
Needing to spend a bunch of time grinding for synth materials sounds like a poor solution to needing to spend a bunch of time grinding through obscenely bloated health pools. The implementation of engineering + being able to put defensive modules in standard optional slots + the design of shields / SCBs / SBs is the problem.
 
Needing to spend a bunch of time grinding for synth materials sounds like a poor solution to needing to spend a bunch of time grinding through obscenely bloated health pools. The implementation of engineering + being able to put defensive modules in standard optional slots + the design of shields / SCBs / SBs is the problem.
As you wrote somewhere else: considering FDs approach to the 3.0 engineering balance pass (more more more :LOL:),
I have no hope that will ever be fixed again...
 
As you wrote somewhere else: considering FDs approach to the 3.0 engineering balance pass (more more more :LOL:),
I have no hope that will ever be fixed again...
It's the reason I haven't booted up the game for a long time now, and packed up my sticks. The rotten foundation of these terrible balance and design choices just completely undermines the game for me. I was able to ignore it for a good while with the assistance of hope that it might eventually get fixed, but my optimisim has its limits. Until those problems are resolved, or FDev at least starts making real progress towards solving them, there's just nothing in the game for me.
 
Needing to spend a bunch of time grinding for synth materials sounds like a poor solution to needing to spend a bunch of time grinding through obscenely bloated health pools. The implementation of engineering + being able to put defensive modules in standard optional slots + the design of shields / SCBs / SBs is the problem.
I would be happy if SCBs were gone from the game.
 
I'm really curious what are your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen.
Do you enjoy PvP in Elite? Do you enjoy it with engineering or is it a sad neccesity (I'm not talking about gathering materials, let's forget about that)?
I know people like PvP, but do you like it the way it is, or like it enough, but would prefer something changed?
If you do enjoy PvP in Open, then... why? How?

And what do you guys think about Premium Ammo?
(and how effective it actually is, as I've literally never used it. Can it significantly shorten the fight?)

Any input would be greatly appreciated:)

I love PvP, and it's pretty much the only reason I play anymore. I've traded, explored, mined, reached Professional rank in CQC, killed more NPCs than I can count-- aside from AX combat, there isn't anything left for me to do that doesn't bore me out of my mind. Nothing excites me more than the challenge of taking on another player, and with help from a great group of friends, we've built a pretty solid PvP community on the Xbox side of things. There is rarely an issue finding someone experienced that's willing to scrap, and there's a steady trickle of rookies who turn up from time to time. It's a good time to be into PvP right now.

With or without engineering, its the unpredictability of a human player that is a big draw. Whether we're doing an un-engineered event, or the usual modified ships, I have a great time. Granted, it's a chill atmosphere, and I'm usually pretty drunk, so it would be difficult for me to not have fun.

Engineering is certainly necessary to be competitive at the highest level, as Pilot skill can only make up for so much (Someone having triple the defenses + 2x or more damage output and speed will certainly have an advantage against someone without).That said, anyone can engineer a ship to its maximum, but not everyone can use it to its full potential. Since 3.0, all ships have a definite maximum level they can be engineered to, so everyone has access to the same thing, provided they put the time in. There are very few legacy modules, if any, that will give anyone a significant advantage over another player.

I personally enjoy the performance upgrades that engineers offer, the increased speed and frequency of boosting is very welcome. If there's any complaint I have, it's the excessive inflation of hitpoints over the years. Ships now are so hilariously durable compared the vanilla versions, its not uncommon for people to run out of ammo while fighting each other. NPCs are total pushovers in comparison.

I'd say buff weapons more, but that would just lengthen the gap between non-engineered and engineered vessels. If anything, defenses need to be brought down a notch. It doesn't take much to make a ship sturdy enough to survive an encounter with another player, but 3000+ shields on an FDL is just ridiculous. Fdev considered nerfing shields a bit in the past, but ended up buffing them lol.

It's too late to go back now, but I feel like allowing us to modify core internals only from the start may have been a better route.

On the topic of premium:

It's another layer of grind that I'm personally not willing to deal with(I often use beam lasers anyway, so it's not like I could even use premium in the first place). Some are willing, and may even need it to remain competitive against other players 30% extra damage on top of engineered weapons is nothing to scoff at. I can't speak for PC, but I know for a fact the best on Xbox get by just fine without farming materials for premium. It's certainly seen as a crutch among many top players.

I don't use it, and I feel that it should be kept out of duels, or organized competition. Some people declare it, others don't. Some deal with accusations of premium, because they're that much better than the average player.

At the end of the day, in organic PvP, I can't exactly be upset if someone uses it. Even if its frowned upon, it's well within the parameters of the game to use it.
 
I would be happy if SCBs were gone from the game.

Noooooooooo, they make so many different ships and builds at least a little more viable for fighting. Don't take that fun away.

Yes and that's another example of the rock-paper-scissors scenario. I've fought ships with 4 SCB modules vs my feedback cascade rails and I run out of ammo cancelling them out. Its just annoying.

You only can cancel during the first 3-5s, depending on engineering. Well 7s actually, but only noobs and me do that kind of engineering:rolleyes:. I can't remember the times I got told on the GCI discord: "Boss cell is bad, don't do that". You can visual see the spool up/cancel timeframe by the pulsating ring without the shield halo, once the halo shows up it's to late to cancel. You can't run out of ammo from that alone, even Bigmaec had rails over and I have 4 scbs in my Conda. Might put some more.
 
If you put Elite Dangerous open play in perspective, given this is a futuristic game where developers design a letter box on an expensive station JUST wide enough to fit the biggest ship......Playing in open is like how Amerca is now with the looting after recent events. For a game based on being in the future and things learnt, what hasn't moved on is crime punishment and thats just unrealistic together with the letterbox. Little rant over :)
 
Engineering is certainly necessary to be competitive at the highest level,

No, Engineering is necessary to be competitive, period. Otherwise all you're flying is a collection of hitpoints that can't do anything but run away or die, and a lot of ships aren't even quick enough to do that first one against an engineered Challenger since I'm already faster than a Viper 3 that doesn't have the hot rod drives isn't underweighted to the point of not having anything to throw at me. I mean, I can run down an otherwise unengineered A-rated Cobra 3 or Clipper, after all, and the Challenger's a bit of a potato.

-----

If we're gonna talk Engineers, Frenotx already said everything that needs saying regarding them. As they are on live as of 1 June 2020 they aren't tweaks to your ship to customize it to your personal preference, they are a good 66% of the across-the-board stats of any ship, and premium ammo is a reward for logging in and sitting at Dav's Hope or wherever collecting mats a couple times a week to trade in for your renewable damage boost. It ain't much different than most login/battlepath boosters, save that it can be done anytime and there's no expiration date on the materials if you're not playing (thus far).
 
Problem with PVP is absolutely braindead meta. I'm sure without engineering, it would be exactly the same, because Elite simply isn't designed for it. And I mean competitive PVP. Staged one can actually be tons of fun, or one wth rules and hard restrictions, which would regulate equipment and engineering. To be fair, I'd say combat is not the most exciting thing in Elite. Been watching some DCS dogfights. Boy, that's so breathtaking...

Problem with engineering is that it gives way too high flat buff to things like hull/shield strength, damage, manipulating damage types, utterly defeating concept of using particular damage types to counter. For example, explosive ammo should literally tear hull to shreds on impact, but it's barely noticeable. This is two sided problem, because you can manipulate protection as well, maximizing any stat you want, which in turn simply made it all obsolete and people go for sheer max MJ, because PAs are absolute... That being said, high fantasy magical effects, such as vents, healing beams, scrambling, stuff like drag munitions, corrosive, cascades etc, etc. I seriously don't know what FD have been thinking when they were designing these upgrades.

On Premium ammo, there's nothing to say, really. It's just silly, and no idea why it exists. We should have ammo racks for more ammo, that would solve a lot of issues, really. I mean, synthesis is nice feature, but it goes overboard often and should be heavily restricted on what you can actually synthesise. Right now you can pretty much anything...

To be honest, all these issues are not hard to fix, but one should be interested in it, is all...
 
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As a whole, synthesis seems like a less than great feature to begin with. Bear with me on this as I show why:
  • Synthesis renders certain module groups and feature ideas obsolete / redundant. EX: Ammo crates for combat builds, ammo limpets for support builds. While we have refuel limpets and repair limpets, Synthesis renders rearm redundant in these systems, hamstringing another form of supportive gameplay.
  • Synthesis renders many aspects of Elite self-sufficient and thus makes certain mechanics designed to challenge self-sufficiency pointless. Life support is effectively meaningless to all but the newest commander, as synthesis renders it a merely annoying timer. This in turn takes a major part of a blown canopy out: the fear of asphyxiation, leaving only the handicap of a the lost combat UI.
  • Synthesis also renders other aspects of planning less valuable. Forgot limpets? Synthesize. Forgot ammo replenishment? Synthesize. AFMU running low? Synthesize. It is strange that the synthesis mechanic is capable of producing highly complex objects like starship ammunition or micro-robotics...but it can't produce fuel for the ship, which as I recall is simply Hydrogen. Why is that?

Ok, what's the point?

Remove synthesis. Entirely.
Yup, even limpets and life support.

This isn't Star Trek. We don't have matter converters. Heck, we apparently don't even have space internet to check prices at markets before we land! Why does Elite have synthesis at all?

But think how HARD that might make the game?!

Would it? Aside from PvP, how often is synthesis actually used? A better question, why it it used?
- To offset a punishment for poor preparation or execution (Life support, limpets forgotten, protracted combat)

I could say laziness, but that seems unfair. What gamer doesn't want to make life a little easier? I'm not a hardcore enthusiast, I'm not advocating for "Make Elite Hard Again" or some nonsense. What I am advocating is that synthesis, as a mechanic, severely undermines not only existing features and environments but also future features and environments.

Grade A Life Support should matter.
Having a FC that can rearm you should matter.
Having a fellow commander in wing that can rearm you should matter.
(Why, oh why does this game not take advantage of the support style of gameplay!? Why stop at fuel and repair?)

Varying degrees of ammunition is not a solution for weapon variety. What if engineering alone provided that variety? Better yet, we all clamor for a universal limpet controller, why can't a weapon have multiple settings built into it? Why use synthesis at all? Nevermind synthesis is indeed its own material grind that undermines using those materials for engineering.


Nix synthesis. Just get rid of it.
  • Such a change doesn't even need a balance pass, which is ironic. PvP with or without synthesis is no different, as synthesis has no skill component to it.
  • Exploring gains more grit and preparation, the steady wear and tear is more meaningful, the blown canopy is a REAL PROBLEM as you helplessly wait on the repair limpet to save that precious air supply, wondering how many more mistakes you can make on a truly limited AFMU. Double AFMU might actually matter because you value preparedness. Choosing neutron jumps becomes a calculated decision - how many before the AFMU is dry from repairs?
  • Mining and Hacking require more preparedness, more "Ah crap...found LTD and I have one limpet left..." raising the stakes of choice and skill.

My two credits.
 
Remove synthesis. Entirely.
Yup, even limpets and life support.

This isn't Star Trek. We don't have matter converters. Heck, we apparently don't even have space internet to check prices at markets before we land! Why does Elite have synthesis at all?

But think how HARD that might make the game?!

Would it? Aside from PvP, how often is synthesis actually used? A better question, why it it used?

dude this would ruin AX combat. Fighting sometihng like a Medusa requires synthing a lot of heatsinks, Flak ammo, AFMU ammo, gauss rounds (standard, let alone premium - the tougher goids take a LOT of hits). It isn't just PVP players that rely on being able ot make ammo on the fly

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkyIlwQTF78
 
dude this would ruin AX combat. Fighting sometihng like a Medusa requires synthing a lot of heatsinks, Flak ammo, AFMU ammo, gauss rounds (standard, let alone premium - the tougher goids take a LOT of hits). It isn't just PVP players that rely on being able ot make ammo on the fly

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkyIlwQTF78
Which means Goids have to be rebalanced too.
This is a major problem, fixing one thing without complete rebalance will screw over three others.
 
Which means Goids have to be rebalanced too.
This is a major problem, fixing one thing without complete rebalance will screw over three others.

You do not want to anger this woman-
crazyeyes.png
 
As long as they exist, I'm fine with people using whatever Engineering or synthesis options are available to their CMDRs. I rarely have my CMDR bother with synthesis at all, and often run lasers or plasma slugs on many of his combat ships (even PvP ones).

Of course, my ideal incarnation of the game would lack both Engineering and synthesis, or at least radically alter them, but when it comes right down to it, I play the game I have.
 
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