PVP Combat Logging - Vindicator Jones Video

vindicator jones

vindicator jones
Obsidian Ant beat me to it, but here it is guys.


My take on Combat Logging.


Please note, some very mild course language and strong opinions.

Please watch the whole video before commenting and please try and respect each others opinions.


[video=youtube;lqSmR4iCku4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqSmR4iCku4[/video]
 
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Bran Tse Mallory

Bran Tse Mallory
Although I agree with everything you said in the video I fear that the impression of playing in Open is more deadly than injecting your self with something deadly amy of already spread to far. I've been looking at the numbers of people complaining about it against the number of CMDR's who actually have a tale to tell and the two figures do not add up to anything that makes sense. Interesting that you've encountered the issue more with combat pilots than traders - reputation or playstyle may have a lot to do with that. ;)

Keep up the good work Vinny, always enjoy your videos!
 

KillaALF

K
Good video! I'm also not the least bit surprised that in your experience combat ships CL more often than traders do, lots of hypocrites out there. Kettles and pots and all that jazz...
 

Wasp0

Wasp0
Loved the video, as i always do, some good valid points to which i agree with you.

A plea to both sides on this issue, (I am on one of the sides) let's stop being a 'Richard' and work together to make this game better and more people in Open!
 

Truesilver

Truesilver
As I have been saying for a while now, the forum meme of the combat logger as an unarmed innocent, reacting with curious swiftness and presence of mind to an unexpected random attempted murder, is as overblown as it is entrenched.

Don't get me wrong - it is based on fact - but it has become the 'assumed default' form of combat log on these forums and, I believe, wrongly. Apart from anything else, the almost universal description of a random gank, from the perspective of an unexpecting non-combat pilot, is that they were facing the rebuy screen before they had any idea what was happening.

I do not believe that the majority of combat logs take this form. I have only ever harmed the Wanted, group enemies and Powerplay enemies and I have seen my fair share of logs.

In contrast to the 'logger as kind-hearted innocent' meme, there is for example a very unpleasant reality of certain loggers as 'sidey-popper who doesn't like to take his medicine'.

There is a tiny yet persistent hardcore of combat loggers who frequent the Eravate region - I could (yet won't) name at least four - who have made it their game to destroy new players. All have been frequently chased away by my former team-mates in Adle's Armada and all have occasionally been destroyed - but only very occasionally because they combat log.

I find it breathtaking that these players are still in game.
 

Paroxsym

Paroxsym
Well thought out and articulated, VJ. And I find myself in complete agreement.

Combat logging as a whole seems to be a symptom of a larger issue, one that I hope FDev starts to work on sooner, rather than later.
 

Sylow

Sylow
Nice video. But as it tries to apply to reason of the parties involved, i think it it has no basis to work on.
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Next to that, i still am amused that people in general seem to be unawaer of one part of "combat logging" which matters a lot according to my personal experience. While i don't spend much time in open (a certain part of the playerbase convinced me that Möbius is the better choice), i was involved in some combat training among players. During that i several times had the effect that one or another player suddenly "combat logged", or at least one participant of the duel claimed the other one did so. In one instance, even both sides claimed that the other one just combat logged, at the same time, while i was still able to see both of them flying around. Bonus points: they also were not able to see each others chat messages.
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So while i don't fly in Open any more and don't have any experience with actual combat logging, i in the run of time encountered fake combat logging again and again. Neither player involved pulled the plug, both still were visible for a part of the other players there, while not being visible any more for other players. It's one of those cases where P2P showed its ugly face again. (I could write a large paragraph on what i suspect that is wrong here, but i consider it contraproductive. Not only would it only be a theory based on my experience with the netcode of some other P2P application, but it would also be far off topic and not contributing to this thread. )
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So my actual point about all the combat logging really is, i have encountered enough problems with the netcode in the game already, especially in situations with high traffic (which combat it), to conclude that in a number of perceived "combat logging incidents" neither party logged. Actually the clients desynchronized, giving both sides the impression that the other side disconnected. People should arm themselves with this knowledge and rather ask for improved and more stable netcode, instead of blaming other players for something which could very well be the result of an inherent technological flaw of this game.
.
 

Marc_Hicks

Marc_Hicks
Great video VJ. You know, tales of griefing kept me out of Open for my first year in the game. Yet I am no approaching my 12th month in Open, & I have never yet been attacked by another human being-neither griefers nor role-players. I also feel no desire to attack other players, as I am not playing a pirate in the current iteration of my commander. If I were to be attacked, I almost certainly wouldn't combat log. I hate doing anything that breaks my immersion in the game, plus I always ensure I carry enough credits in reserve to cover my losses if my ship should get destroyed.......I wonder, though. Now that I have a crew member, would I be more tempted to combat log to save her life?!?! Hmm. Hopefully that will never be put to the test. Needless to say, though, I have lost 2 crew members already due to PvE combat....so I suspecg the answer is no ;).

I definitely agree that C&P needs a significant overhaul (starting with the removal of the Suisidewinder & related exploits). I really hope we get it before the end of the current season.
 

JohnRoberts

JohnRoberts
Marc_Hicks said:
Great video VJ. You know, tales of griefing kept me out of Open for my first year in the game. Yet I am no approaching my 12th month in Open, & I have never yet been attacked by another human being-neither griefers nor role-players. I also feel no desire to attack other players, as I am not playing a pirate in the current iteration of my commander.
Click to expand...

This.

I play in open, but I'm not a PVPer. I don't see many Cmdrs, and those I do see, I give a friendly greeting too, and usually, I get a friendly response. I think its an utter tragedy that Open has become synonymous with "PVP" (or worse "unwanted PVP"), and the onus is surely on FDev to address the perception, and create an Open can allow players to have a more meaningful choice about the level of risks they want to take.

It's not like it even requires any new ideas: We already have supposedly high security and anarchy systems - its just that the mechanics of these system doesn't really differentiate them very much - I'm not even remote concerned about visiting Anarchy systems, nor do I feel especially safe in a High Security system. With some tweaks to this, and C&P system with some teeth, maybe we can encourage a few more people to join us in Open.
 

vindicator jones

vindicator jones
Truesilver said:
As I have been saying for a while now, the forum meme of the combat logger as an unarmed innocent, reacting with curious swiftness and presence of mind to an unexpected random attempted murder, is as overblown as it is entrenched.

Don't get me wrong - it is based on fact - but it has become the 'assumed default' form of combat log on these forums and, I believe, wrongly. Apart from anything else, the almost universal description of a random gank, from the perspective of an unexpecting non-combat pilot, is that they were facing the rebuy screen before they had any idea what was happening.

I do not believe that the majority of combat logs take this form. I have only ever harmed the Wanted, group enemies and Powerplay enemies and I have seen my fair share of logs.

In contrast to the 'logger as kind-hearted innocent' meme, there is for example a very unpleasant reality of certain loggers as 'sidey-popper who doesn't like to take his medicine'.

There is a tiny yet persistent hardcore of combat loggers who frequent the Eravate region - I could (yet won't) name at least four - who have made it their game to destroy new players. All have been frequently chased away by my former team-mates in Adle's Armada and all have occasionally been destroyed - but only very occasionally because they combat log.

I find it breathtaking that these players are still in game.
Click to expand...

Its why I said that we shouldnt lump all loggers into the same group. There are different reasons why people do it.. I dont think there is ever an innocent "logger" unless it is a hardware issue, anyone who has logged has done the wrong thing. But instead of punishing those who do it for reasons which are ethically understandable, I think we are better off educating and encouraging them.. Open is slowly circling the drain of oblivion, and pushing more and more people into solo is going to be bad for the game. Its just that a certain group of people cant see the trees for the forest. They are like big game hunters slowly killing off endagered animals, saying its their right to do it.. Sure, maybe its legal to do it, but dosent mean we have to do it...

Thanks to everyone else who has supported me in this video, the frontier forums have been a lot kinder than the reddit thread.. Currently they want to flail the skin off my body with a cheese grater... lol
 
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TomP

TomP
Good video, I agree.

Here is what I wrote on a related thread:


I've quit Shinrarta in the last few days. Moved the entire fleet. I wasn't getting blown up, just sick to the back teeth of tossers trying to blow me up. The same tedious people, every single tedious time. I've got an engineered Cutter and an engineered FdL, which of course they never interdict. But sometimes I'm in a T-9 or a Beluga; guess what happens next? Submit. Yawn. Select high wake destination. Snore. High wake.

Oh and don't believe the utter crap they spout about only targeting combat loggers. I don't log, yet I have to deal with these morons time and time again. In fact, nothing makes combat logging more appealing than that it would severely irritate the sort of pond life that hangs out at Shinrarta.

Honestly, I've defended Open Mode repeatedly here, trying to encourage people to give it a try, but no more. If these tossers want to rule a hollow kingdom, bereft of any diversity, they are welcome to it.


Overheard at the Tchernobog trade CG:

"Care Bears!"

"Lol"

"Anyone using a docking computer is KoS".

I no longer blame anybody for giving Open a wide berth. I'm still there for now, but that may change. If FDev take no steps to improve C&P, I might just give it up.
 

Derath

D
Not that It has much relevance anymore but in my piracy days it was very easy to guess who would combat log, any bounty hunter in a large ship generally would, traders in conda's almost always combat logged (this was in like 1.0-1.2 though remember)

Respect to the OP for actually dipping toes into the cess-pool but the abuse you'll get really isn't worth it, FD really don't care so just chin up and move on :p or quit in my case lol. They've not even shown any indication of actually changing crime and punishment which would work as an in-game method to address the inherent weaknesses of their chosen server architecture.
 
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Flimsey

Flimsey
Nice video:)

Agree with most of it and your vision of a new crime/punishment system is similar to mine:)
But i think there could be a increased re buy cost for serial killers too, that will probably result in smaller and cheaper griefer ships.
 

CptSiddy

C
I want to make a correction to your otherwise grate video.

There is no such a thing as combat logging in a single player game with online DRM.
Elite is single player game with online DRM component slapped on to it, that is masked as "open play". (And lets not kid ourself, if elite didint have this online DRM component in it, modders would have made this game grate again, just like X3 and X-)

Ergo, you cannot combat log in Elite. And if i log off at any point of the game, be it in middle of a fight or flying home back to station, i do not need to explain myself TO ANYONE.
If dogs need a walk , i will "combat log" and walk a dog. And i owe zero, nada, zilch, diddly squat explanation to anyone... least of you, to why i decided to close my SINGLE PLAYER GAME and go do something else.

Period.
 
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vindicator jones

vindicator jones
Flimsey said:
Nice video:)

Agree with most of it and your vision of a new crime/punishment system is similar to mine:)
But i think there could be a increased re buy cost for serial killers too, that will probably result in smaller and cheaper griefer ships.
Click to expand...

There is so much that could be done with crime and punishment. The structure is there, but its not being utilized properly.

I might make this a subject in my next video.. if reddit dosent end up killing me first.. lol
 
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