PVP is not Griefing

[darshu]

The amount of threads calling players who attack and or try to kill them "Griefers" is getting crazy. Players killing players is not griefing. Blocking a dock so that players can't enter or leave is. It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies". A player killing you in a open world/universe pvp game is not griefing it's a game mechanic.

This game was literally designed for the player interaction some players are complaining about. Yes this is a pvp game. Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes. While people playing in open to encounter other players for pvp are playing the open mode as it was intended to be. There are 2 modes one is more Elite and Dangerous. If you don't like it they made a Solo mode for you.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The amount of threads calling players who attack and or try to kill them "Griefers" is getting crazy. Players killing players is not griefing. Blocking a dock so that players can't enter or leave is. It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies". A player killing you in a open world/universe pvp game is not griefing it's a game mechanic.

This game was literally designed for the player interaction some players are complaining about. Yes this is a pvp game. Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes. While people playing in open to encounter other players for pvp are playing the open mode as it was intended to be. There are 2 modes one is more Elite and Dangerous. If you don't like it they made a Solo mode for you.

I semi agree....... the issue is imo, right now the balance is off.....

In "safe" (High sec) systems the police are too slow to respond.

the ability to use an infinite number of free starter ships, which for many is a fully specced cobra, combined with the ability to delete your CMDR and start again with a clean status is in my mind clearly an exploit. A psychopath isnt meant to be a game role, (tho it isn't blocked). Deleting and starting again with a specced ship and wiped status is in my mind an exploit no different than network cable pulling when losing a fight.

maybe griefing is the wrong word but an overspecced ship picking out a base sidewinder just for giggles is bullying as is using throwaway ships to bankrupt others, its not a "challenge" which is what the general PvP player claims to want. IF these people were pirating, then that would be fine, but out and out murder is supposed to be dealt with incredibly harshly according to dev videos, and I am not seeing that right now.

Lave is THE iconic system in Elite, it is sad that a group have decided that unless you are tooled up to the extreme they do not want non fighter orientated players to visit it unless they are in solo. I am hoping the good that will come of it will be that the devs will sharpen the teeth of the AI police and BHers as well as block the ability to wipe and restart an account until all bounties, and fines are paid off (indeed this was one of the stated goals iirc), as well as make the starting sidewinder come either without weapons OR have a cooling off period so you cant use an infinite number of them.

If this was in some back water anarchy system then I would think this behaviour would be a little more fitting but a high sec system like Lave?

If I was to go to London and start...... actually will tone down given recent events in France........ punching people in the street, how long do you think it would be before I was put out of action..... and I would not be doing it again any time soon!.

 

[Ragnar Lodbrok]

You're right!!

Traders should search for routes, where are less players, even if the profits are lower. Safety first.

Or they should be clever enough to drop some cargo instead of loosing a fully loaded ASP/T6/T7 or - damn it , again another - T9!!!! ( I had one more yesterday. I stopped firing for last chance when hull was 36%... but still exploded... )

The escape-chances are very low.

 

[Ixnatifual]

It would be cool if players could hire other players as armed escorts.

 

[Jonny Quest]

the ability to use an infinite number of free starter ships, which for many is a fully specced cobra, combined with the ability to delete your CMDR and start again with a clean status is in my mind clearly an exploit. A psychopath isnt meant to be a game role, (tho it isn't blocked). Deleting and starting again with a specced ship and wiped status is in my mind an exploit no different than network cable pulling when losing a fight.

This a thousand times. Using throwaway ships to attack anything that moves and re-starting from a clean save so you can do it again (and with new name you are not blocked) is the very definition of griefing. That's why the "blocade" is so close to the starting system, otherwise they would be unable to do that effectively.
It is not Piracy, not Bounty Hunting, not even PvP as a psycho or whatever.

Those people do not create a commander that is a part of blockade (its just throwaway til next save clearing), they use technical 'exploits' to ruin the fun for other players.
And it smells of goons a mile away.

It would be cool if players could hire other players as armed escorts.

It could be cool and proper in-game response... if multi player instancing would work for player groups. Right now if a player interdicts an NPC and you scan the wake and jump in - you end up in another instance. Or not. its not consistent - this crap is too buggy to respond "to counter such folks use armed escorts/group up" - it simply doesnt work. Hell, some poeple still have trouble to even see their friends in an instance.

 

[Joe Spivey]

The amount of threads calling players who attack and or try to kill them "Griefers" is getting crazy. Players killing players is not griefing. Blocking a dock so that players can't enter or leave is. It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies". A player killing you in a open world/universe pvp game is not griefing it's a game mechanic.

This game was literally designed for the player interaction some players are complaining about. Yes this is a pvp game. Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes. While people playing in open to encounter other players for pvp are playing the open mode as it was intended to be. There are 2 modes one is more Elite and Dangerous. If you don't like it they made a Solo mode for you.

You couldn't be more wrong. ED is not 'a PvP game'. ED was designed as a player co-op game with a PvP element. PvP is meant to be 'rare and meaningful' (DB's words ref, Dev Diaries) and is not central to the game. Another quote from DB:

Originally Posted by David Braben live interview with The Register David Braben: It is important that players enjoy the experience. We are writing this game for ourselves, and the fun of the game is the most important thing. Player-player encounters should be interesting, and part of this is the ability to hide - whether from other players or AIs. Most of the ships you encounter will be AIs - and in many cases you will kill them - which is why we want the majority to be AIs. Generally speaking we expect players, even beginners, to be more of a challenge than an AI ship, and something that players will tend not to attack, but more cooperate with, and we are designing the bounty system (and others) to discourage PvP and encourage player cooperation.

 

[Vandaahl]

Semantic discussion are always phun

<settles down with popcorn>

 

[crushdepth]

The amount of threads calling players who attack and or try to kill them "Griefers" is getting crazy. Players killing players is not griefing. Blocking a dock so that players can't enter or leave is. It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies". A player killing you in a open world/universe pvp game is not griefing it's a game mechanic.

This game was literally designed for the player interaction some players are complaining about. Yes this is a pvp game. Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes. While people playing in open to encounter other players for pvp are playing the open mode as it was intended to be. There are 2 modes one is more Elite and Dangerous. If you don't like it they made a Solo mode for you.

It CAN be griefing. Why don't you go look up the definition? Repeatedly killing and harassing the same person over and over is griefing. Griefers outnumber "real pirates" in this game, that's why so many people hate PVP. If you want to advance the cause of PVP the best advice I can give to it's proponents is "don't behave like a jerk" when you do it. Of course, griefers are inherently jerks and once again, this is why many people avoid PVP.

There seems to be an unhealthily large population of pro-PVP people who's attitude is "I have a right to PVP and be a jerk about it if I want". They need to get some social skills.

 

[Maeko]

I'm confused. How does one restart fresh with a fully specced cobra? I was under the impression anyone restarting would have to be using the basic sidey/eagle and work their way up again?

In any event I agree with the OP, PvP combat is not griefing. Using an exploit to gain an advantage in PvP is not griefing either - it is was it is, use of an exploit.

 

[Jonny Quest]

I'm confused. How does one restart fresh with a fully specced cobra? I was under the impression anyone restarting would have to be using the basic sidey/eagle and work their way up again?

In any event I agree with the OP, PvP combat is not griefing. Using an exploit to gain an advantage in PvP is not griefing either - it is was it is, use of an exploit.

I can restart with Cobra or Eagle. Any kickstarter/pre-alpha backer on higher level that has a level including a ship better than sidey can do that. Every time a clear save is created you can pick up from selection of ships or a Sidey.

EDIT: everyone with preorder (merc edition) gets freegle with each clear save

And "exploit" is a term used loosely here, after all they "just" work within game mechanics and probably wont be considered by FD as exploit (they would have to shaft a lot of KS backers to close that one).

 

[RedWizzard]

It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies".
...
Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes.

It's not the traders calling people "carebears". It's not the traders asking for solo to be separated from open or for open to get a profitability boost. You could have simply made your point without this rubbish but instead you decided to go post flamebait.

 

[Wicz]

The amount of threads calling players who attack and or try to kill them "Griefers" is getting crazy. Players killing players is not griefing. Blocking a dock so that players can't enter or leave is. It's funny how its the players crying about one thing or another are always the ones who use terms like "kiddies" or "babies". A player killing you in a open world/universe pvp game is not griefing it's a game mechanic.

This game was literally designed for the player interaction some players are complaining about. Yes this is a pvp game. Yet it is the people who dont like it that are calling for design changes. While people playing in open to encounter other players for pvp are playing the open mode as it was intended to be. There are 2 modes one is more Elite and Dangerous. If you don't like it they made a Solo mode for you.

The number of threads complaining that anybody who doesn't want to play open is either a carebear or a coward is getting crazy too.

I don't want design changes, I like the fact I can choose to play whichever mode I like when I like.

You are the one that has made yet another pointless thread, and I think you have missed the point of ED.


Edit: It really is very simple. Play the mode/s you enjoy and let others do the same. <-- Notice the full stop.

 

[Amaze]

Yes, PVP does not necessary mean griefing nor is killing players griefing.

There are many ways to grief, most ways involve killing players and it is not PVP.

 

[darshu]

You couldn't be more wrong. ED is not 'a PvP game'. ED was designed as a player co-op game with a PvP element. PvP is meant to be 'rare and meaningful' (DB's words ref, Dev Diaries) and is not central to the game. Another quote from DB:

Originally Posted by David Braben live interview with The Register David Braben: It is important that players enjoy the experience. We are writing this game for ourselves, and the fun of the game is the most important thing. Player-player encounters should be interesting, and part of this is the ability to hide - whether from other players or AIs. Most of the ships you encounter will be AIs - and in many cases you will kill them - which is why we want the majority to be AIs. Generally speaking we expect players, even beginners, to be more of a challenge than an AI ship, and something that players will tend not to attack, but more cooperate with, and we are designing the bounty system (and others) to discourage PvP and encourage player cooperation.

I couldn't be more wrong ? where does it say PvP is griefing ? It in fact says it's a game mechanic that should be fun while having discouraging downsides. I also didn't say it was "Central to the game" I said it was designed for it. PVP is not griefing and is a game mechanic and that quote says exactly that.

I can see how someone spamming new throw away ships can be exploitive but at the same time they are adding content to the game by creating encounters with other players. That should probably be looked at but these ships (unless you are a kickstarter backer) are poorly kitted and can be killed by a lower class ship with little time and money invested into it.

 

[Skip Intro]

The ability to use an infinite number of free starter ships, which for many is a fully specced cobra, combined with the ability to delete your CMDR and start again with a clean status is in my mind clearly an exploit. A psychopath isnt meant to be a game role, (tho it isn't blocked). Deleting and starting again with a specced ship and wiped status is in my mind an exploit no different than network cable pulling when losing a fight.

Do we know how many people are doing this? The amount of 'griefing' - and I do think that's the wrong word - in the game must be quite small due to instancing etc., but maginfied by the abilty to come onto the forums and have a good winge about being killed.

I have no doubt that it is a pain in the proverbials to lose a big ship full of swag but there's nothing against it in the game as it stands. I used tha analogy of the U-Boat "Happy Time" in another thread but until there's an in-game mechanic - convoy escorts / system defense boats or even an organised group that will patrol some of the problem areas that's where we will remain.

I think that Mr Braben was being massively optimistic when he thought that the game will promote co-operation as it certainly cannot at the moment. I look forward to the time when there can be convoys / escorts / anti pirate patrols as it will add an extra edge to the game. Perhaps the proposed 'Wings' expansion will provide some of this?

 

[flynnmichael81]

No doubt some people are using the games mechanics to grief people but so what? It's quite easy to avoid getting griefed: fly out from the core systems by ten sectors and you'll barely ever see another human. Two ships flew through my home sector in the last 24 hours yet only five sectors away over four hundred were to be seen.

I think you have to imagine the game backwards, core/safe systems are full of pirates and griefers but out in the sticks its safe and cheerful.

 

[darshu]

It CAN be griefing. Why don't you go look up the definition? Repeatedly killing and harassing the same person over and over is griefing. Griefers outnumber "real pirates" in this game, that's why so many people hate PVP. If you want to advance the cause of PVP the best advice I can give to it's proponents is "don't behave like a jerk" when you do it. Of course, griefers are inherently jerks and once again, this is why many people avoid PVP.

There seems to be an unhealthily large population of pro-PVP people who's attitude is "I have a right to PVP and be a jerk about it if I want". They need to get some social skills.

Griefing would be in a player was intentionally killing you repeatedly in a situation you had no control over. in a universe with over 400 billion systems if the same person kills you twice you are flying back to that same player creating the same experience and wondering why the exact same thing happened ? that's griefing that's something i wont even comment on...

 

[Cidcaldensfey]

Doesn't matter if PvP is griefing. Just don't play open if you don't want to get griefed/PvPed/killed/whatever.

 

[darshu]

It's not the traders calling people "carebears". It's not the traders asking for solo to be separated from open or for open to get a profitability boost. You could have simply made your point without this rubbish but instead you decided to go post flamebait.

You have jumped to conclusions that i never wrote...

 

[Sarduca]

no! pvp is not griefing only cry babies say that.... tell me again why these ppl are playing this game.