Sterling MH
Banned
Was it? That all, or do you want to edit that post and explain? Otherwise that post was entirely pointless and a waste of space.
PVP piracy - Destroyed three trader ships over 4t of cargo... help me understand
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Was it? That all, or do you want to edit that post and explain? Otherwise that post was entirely pointless and a waste of space.
"Proper" piracy is not griefing; however, the "piracy" behaviour described by some in this thread could be considered tantamount to it... they are only getting away with it on a technicality IMO.
From Wikipedia:-
Given this, griefing can be construed as a subset of piracy (in the context of games) since it typically involves (in-game) "criminal violence" against another player and thus it is reasonable to extrapolate that certain alleged Piracy behaviours can be validly called griefing. Verbal/Textual harassment is not griefing IMO, but it is disallowed by the EULA under general harrassment. Pirates who shoot vessels first without making demands are putting themselves at risk of being classified as griefers, in some cases it will be more than justified in other cases perhaps less so.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy said:
Not carrying a cargo scanner leaves the pirate at the whim of chance in whether their demands will be considered reasonable or not, and whether their piracy attempt is likely to bear any fruit. Just because a given pilot is flying around in a trade ship or without weapons or shields does not mean they are carrying any cargo necessarily - they could be an explorer filled with fuel instead of cargo for example. Ship type is far from a clear indicator as to whether a given player is carrying cargo or not.
There are of course some who will not drop cargo regardless of the demands and that is why we have the other non-lethal piracy tools (like hatch breakers) and the ability to target ship modules. Knock out their FSD or Engines and they can still reboot them but it gives the Pirate a chance to use the hatch breakers and the target a chance to drop cargo.
TL;DR Pirates who think that piracy involves habitual killing of other players are more like griefers than true pirates given there are non-lethal ways of executing piracy in the game.
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I've had to suddenly get out of the game before. Someone calls at the door or on an important telephone call requries my full attention. The dog throws up. Sometimes my connection goes. All of these things can happen while interacting with tohers or when on your own.
There isn't any realistic way to differentiate that kind of unintentional stuff from genuine 'combat logging'. There never shall be.
There isn't any realistic way to differentiate that kind of unintentional stuff from genuine 'combat logging'. There never shall be.
"You haven't been bothered and so you've missed how daft their stance is, how self-centered and unbalanced." I would direct you to read the arguments you have made in this thread. Pot and kettle - all that jazz. Hilarious.
I said I have no interest in competitive PVP, this thread is about piracy which is not competitive PVP. I had already posted in this thread about piracy before I saw your 'alternative definitions'. I disagree with you classifying Piracy as Griefing.
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I haven't seen any of the actual self proclaimed pirates in this thread advocate blowing up random Commanders, quite the opposite. Most of them seem very proud of the low counts they have of actually blowing up a Commander.
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Which I guess is why FDEV say they investigate combat logging - if there's a pattern of it, then they'll take action. Random occurrences, that could be down to other external factors don't make a pattern.
Sterling MH
Banned
They're not pirates, either. A pirate doesn't go and look at a ship and pass it up because it looks like it's autopiloted and wait for some swank boat to go past with some white european on it to get their thrills and vengeance on the white man.
If these people were playing pirate, they'd be able to stick with NPC traders. 100% the same reward from the game. X series have had many players playing a pirate life, even getting many missions specifically for pirates. And it's a singleplayer standalone sandbox game. 100% no other players involved.
And still they were able to play pirate.
So anyone not satisfied with raiding NPC traders or sticking to Anarchy space isn't a pirate, they're a griefer "justifying" it with calling it piracy.
The point being that shooting first or making pointless or baseless (without scanner knowledge) demands puts them at genuine and sometimes well deserved risk of being accused of griefing. Avoiding the risk of such accusations and potentially being found guilty is quite easy though.
While I do not condone Combat Logging in the shoot first scenarios, I can certainly understand why people might do it (disallowed or not). While FD support may be able to refund losses from successful griefing accusations, there are some things they can not restore (e.g. NPC crew who may die with the target vessel). A potential risk with T9 "trading ship" targets.
Sterling MH
Banned
OK, but that wasn't my last sentence in what you quoted.
I guess THAT was pretty funny, though, thanks for the slight giggle.
EDIT: Also, look up tu quoque. Another logical fallacy. Basically, it's admitting the accusation against you was valid.
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I tend to agree except CMDR pirates need not be restricted to just PvE targets and there is no reasonable case to do so either. [OT]Saying that, an Open PvE mode where PvP behaviours in general are heavily controlled as an alternative to the closed PvE groups would be a welcome addition (disabling interdiction of other players would be an easy way of controlling a lot of the PvP without affecting immersion too much).[/OT]
IMO there are some player pirates who could change their behaviours and do it in a less anti-social way. The are still "technically" pirates, and some of the historical and fictional pirates were psychopaths and/or sociopaths (or borderline in either) - such comparable behaviours in a game such as ED though are tantamount to griefing IMO. Whether such behaviours are provable as such is another matter for another topic.
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Gotta love this forum, I mention combat logging in one sentence and that sparks like 8 pages of discussion on whether it's cheating or not. It's cheating. It's not ''strategic exiting'', you always have legitimate options for your PVE only mentality gameplay style such as Mobius (where non consensual PvP gets you banned) and solo (where there is literally no chance of you even getting connected to a player) so the unfortunate players who do go into open with the view of ''I WILL ONLY ACCEPT PVE'' really have no excuse to combat log when somebody dares to interdict them since they clearly went into the wrong mode.
Yeah but that's not good enough, I want ALL modes for my playstyle because I'm a special snowflake and you are just a griefer if you interact with me without my express consent and have no business in this game.
Go play Eve or SC while you eat baby's heads for dinner
So the issue then becomes: Why berate players for choosing Solo/PG? Why all the guff about getting more peeps in open? For those that venture into open, to find some Commanders to share time with, but don't want PvP, there is the Timed Exit. And it's totally within the rules. Just like Seal Clubbing. You may not like it but, it's an acceptable response.
We should be educating those who wish to avoid the encounter, to use the proper method of avoidance. i.e. Press escape, click Exit to Desktop, and wait the 15 seconds. Now, all the rules have been followed, and everyone is happy.
As has been stated here previously, most on the forum don't have a problem with it as it's a legitimate gameplay tool, some may not be happy about it and still see it as logging but they don't have a leg to stand on.
However I consider it bad form to come onto an official game forum to promote and justify task killing/pulling the plug/etc. It's even worse form when it doesn't get moderated
Yeah, what ever. I can't see that much difference between a Timed Exit, and a true Combat Log. 15 seconds doesn't seem enough of an issue to create all of this angst. When people scream cheater to a CL'er, but turn a blind eye to all of the other exploits promoted around here, I loose interest as they loose perspective.
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I don't berate people for choosing solo/PG, in fact I promote it to people who clearly have a PVE only mentality. As for the timed exit, it's still combat logging since well, you're literally logging out of the game during combat to avoid it. But since it is indeed using the timer to legitimately log out it is indeed not cheating/exploiting by frontier's rules. It's still cheap, and whether the timer needs to be longer is a whole different beast of something to discuss.
And no, we should be educating people one the modes so that they don't have to combat log in the first place. Want to play with people but in a non PvP manner? Then play PvE groups like Mobius.
Sterling MH
Banned
I never did. Because of the insistence of PvPers, who insisted that logging out was bad and cheating AND THAT WAS IT, I had to talk about "Combat Logging" on their terms, which were that if they considered you their target, you were combat logging to leave at any point until they'd won or given up.
I WAS USING THEIR TERM. So, because it wasn't "combat logging" as per definition "using Alt-F4 during combat" (remember, please, NEVER said while being shot at or under direct attack or anything like that, just avoiding the PvPer) which really doesn't help in most situations because it takes 5 seconds to kill a trader now, and that's not enough time to open up task manager and select the game and click on "Close". I only mentioned task manager because someone insisted that if it was part of the game, it was valid (lack of C&P, asymmetry of warfare in piracy, lack of any reasonable police force intervention), it wasn't a cheat. I pointed out this could easily stretch to the task manager since it is a necessary part of running anything on windows, game or not.
So, I talked about Strategic Logging because Combat Logging was insisted to mean some specific thing and asserted to be what any event that looked similar to them MUST BE.
E.g. bad network. 15 seconds earlier had decided to menu out. Crash. Server fail. Etc. Even listed them all, and "Task kill" wasn't there, you would have to place it in the elipsis of the list.
So what you're complaining about there wasn't me. You just jumped to the (if you hadn't followed what I had, reasonably, but still wrong) conclusion it was.
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FD do. They keep asking people to go back into Open. Moghren never said YOU did, just asked "Why all the....". Unless you've been deaf, you knew that others had, so this is a petty deflection and avoidance of answering.
See, swereratuk? They insist on that definition and if complaint counts for CL were used to whip out the banhammer on accounts, there would be a lot of people kicked out for no actual reason.
Do you think starboy's "Combat Loggin" is "bad form to come onto an official game forum to promote and justify"? Do you?
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Feel bad now saying that in snide support now you know starboy thinks that using menu log out is still the same as task killing?
Do you think you got the wrong bleeding snowflake here???
I am curious.. is specifically alt-f4 that is considered combat logging.. or ANY logging out (i.e. esc/quit to menu) whether or not that requires the 15 sec "in danger" timer? Feels like this originally came to be because of people engaging in consensual pvp abusing logging out to avoid death, now is a term used to guiltrip people who doesn't want anything to do with pvp to bend over and take it up the windpipe just to please the babykiller crowd.
Sterling MH
Banned
Aye, I'd not prefer that option either. But we don't have an option available to do anything else.
We COULD have the Friendly Fire On/Of as a switch on login, then any CMDR pirate can pick on anyone who is up for PvP in the open world, because those who don't won't be hurt (And won't be able to hurt HIM), losing only time finding a target. And everyone goes on Open, because everyone gets their playmethod.
Or they could go on the PvP server where Friendly fire is on, and saving the wasted time of looking for a CMDR trader and finding they're not a target.
Even that is not the best solution. But that requires that CMDR pirates actually risk bigger the further out of anarchy space they go. And that requires proper C&P.
Until then, there's only Private or Solo. And that isn't acceptable to the whiners because there won't be any player traders to shoot at, the problem they had with the "PvP Servers" idea. It's normal to assume that that means all traders being in Solo would likewise be problematic for the same reason.
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