[PvP Players] I’d like to talk PvP with you.

[Dathayn]

Good discussion here. Respectfully, Fdev isn't likely to roll back the engineer update to bare bones levels as some have mused. Having said that, I don't see why a balancing pass/nerf couldn't be considered. They do it with everything else lol

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Removing engineers or some way to remove or destroy engineer effects

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Fact Bomb incoming!

*lobs Fact Bomb in*

[video=youtube;n7tGV7VVlhE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7tGV7VVlhE[/video]​

*cackles maniacally in the background*

*evil grin*

*more snickers*

*leaves*

 

[Ouberos]

Never played CQC, guess the bad rep for finding a game put me off. I know a few of our group had a few internal friendly matches but I digress..

My understanding is that one of the issues with CQC is that you gain rank for participation which is a bit lame and completely fails a major point of PvP if true. It's also a bit trollish to use the old 'go play CQC if you want to PvP, it was created for you'

Of course if I have bad intel please disregard what I have said and berate me accordingly

I never had trouble getting a match. I used to play on a Friday night UK evening and it made a change from the main game. I was using it as training for the ship launched fighters but got hooked.

I stopped playing Elite just before Christmas time and haven't been back since I started again.

If you haven't tried it you should.

 

[Faybs]

*lobs Fact Bomb in*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7tGV7VVlhE​

*cackles maniacally in the background*

*evil grin*

*more snickers*

*leaves*

I fully agree with that - the most fun I've had in this game is playing with other people. But the game *also* needs to discourage playing for the sake of spoiling the game for others. Anyone who's played any good PvP game will know that if you don't do this, the only people left doing PvP are the ones who do it to farm salt and who will increasingly complain that there's no-one in open.

 

[AutoMechancal]

Yeah add me to the list of players that would like to see engineers removed or dramatically changed.

 

[Smecca is BMFE]

Another vote for removing engineers. It is effectively a version pay-to-win, where the currency is TIME spent engineering as opposed to money.

Bring back the importance of skill, please. The third order effects will also be astounding. The game will be instantly and infinitely more balanced and fun.

 

[Martian Successor]

Removing engineers.

Yup, "that" bombshell at first post I feel proud.

For me, the best PvP was always the least organised actually. Find a random dude, he's got a combat ship, he's dropped into your HazRES and is competing with you for kills. Drop a few bullets in his ship, compete for superiority and control.

That's not really a thing any more as you cannot know the state of your opponent's ship in relation to you. Chances are he's heavily un-engineered in comparison, and though I won, it's not the same.

So the only time level footing happens is organised PvP, which is all well and good but ultimately once you've fought "the meta loadout" once you've fought it a hundred times, and it's all too often won/lost on loadout before you've started.

Absolutely. Second, remove everything but basic synthesis.

I remember the days when you could go to a high tech station, buy a ship, A-rate it, then jump right into some amazing and balanced PvP straight away, where shields were weaker, capacitors were slower, ships weren't as manoeuvrable, and skill was the only difference between winning and losing.

Dear God, so much this ^^^

I wasn't around when ships were as Rinzler describes but before the Engineers PvP combat was way more balanced and way more accessible. Meet ship, fight ship, test of skills, happy smiles for a good fight. You could actually appreciate the skill of the other pilot rather than their luck with RNG.

*I can't believe I just repped Rinzler.*

- - - Updated - - -

Make PvP great?

Get PvE players involved. Include cooperative gameplay mechanics such as more robust player group features, Player to player trading of resources that can only be acquired through either PvP or PvE activities, more emphasis on rewards for cooperative play between PvE and PvP players such as the wingman trade dividends. Wing missions that require both combat and passive fit ships to complete.

The whole problem stems from the fact that the only reason PvP and PvE players have to interact is for one to shoot the other and the other to wish it wasn't happening. It's bad game design. Every thread about PvP and PvE focuses on how to further segregate the communities and make it even more meaningless for them to interact, instead of how to give them beneficial reasons to interact more often and in a more positive manner.

Which is why I generally delight in stepping into any PvP/PvE thread and just vomiting all over it. The suggestions for stricter segregation are just fundamentally bad, because it isn't beneficial for anyone, and as such they can never be adequately defended by anything but circular logic and myths and irrational emotional outbursts. However these posts were never meant to open any sort of dialog and are just used to affirm one's own beliefs, so there is no reason to treat them with the respect that a well adjusted and thought out observations would otherwise deserve.

Instead of demanding that players be separated from each other, demand that FDev finish multiplayer functionality because we're tired of the half-baked placeholder mechanics we currently have.

Very well said.

This is actually one of the videos that finally really sold me on ED as this great co-operative game where ship balances and skill development actually mattered:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23GEX4pYL9w

^ Where did that idea go?

 

[Daitya Zo]

This is a great thread, OP. It has fixated on removing engineers tho, which won't happen. Anyway, excellent effort.

Single-minded whine is not our collective solution. I think in-game CQC would help with more rewarding competition. I think making ganking have any repercussions would draw more people to player interdiction, not less (actal skillz involved). I think a PvP ladder where you get rank for defeating better ships, and lose rank for overly opportunistic preying, would actally show who has skills and promote both open and PvP. My wife and I were hoping to play bad guys of any sort, but currently that is the single most mindless and infantile game mechanic available to players in this game. Which is ironic because, as you know, this game was historically a thinking person's game built by a thinking team who pushed the boundaries of how smart procedural code could be, and attracted true geeks in large numbers. Sigh.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Very well said.

This is actually one of the videos that finally really sold me on ED as this great co-operative game where ship balances and skill development actually mattered:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23GEX4pYL9w

^ Where did that idea go?

Wings became the devil when people who were convinced that ED should remain a 100% single player game said it would be unfair to put content in the game that they couldn't experience in solo.

Kind of like how player groups was heralded as the antichrist that would destroy the community and bring the game to it's knees with player feudalism.

 

[Obi0914]

Ya know you could just look into engineers your self, i just started and already have 5 engiees at level 5 and discover several more from doing every day stuff in the game. I dont feel overaly powerful.

 

[Martian Successor]

Wings became the devil when people who were convinced that ED should remain a 100% single player game said it would be unfair to put content in the game that they couldn't experience in solo.

Kind of like how player groups was heralded as the antichrist that would destroy the community and bring the game to it's knees with player feudalism.

Well that's a shame. Just from the concept of that trailer (and knowing how it can actually easily work) we got cheated out of something fun that's a very basic feature in any other coop enabled MMO. It's not like it was the dawn of 8-12 person high level raids or something.

I hope FD decide to revisit the idea and think about something similiar to your suggestion.

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Well that's a shame. Just from the concept of that trailer (and knowing how it can actually easily work) we got cheated out of something fun that's a very basic feature in any other coop enabled MMO. It's not like it was the dawn of 8-12 person high level raids or something.

I hope FD decide to revisit the idea and think about something similiar to your suggestion.

I think that after Multicrew is released they'll be less worried about the crying that all content has to be solo content from that corner of the community.

 

[znôrt]

Removing engineers.

no need to be so drastic, engineers can still have a place, i suggested this not long ago:

engineers is an instant epic win for the game if:
- you nerf all effects 50% across the board and
- you make all upgrades free or at most just cost some credits

of course this makes upgrades 1-4 irrelevant (or not? let's keep them and find out. if it's all about balancing your ship to your needs ... size might actually matter).

if you then want to make engineers not just good but truly great:
- make every single mod be neutral, ie, buffs==downsides

engineers right now is a shame: a great potential just wasted.

 

[Morbad]

For better or worse, Engineers aren't going anywhere. Any solution to any perceived problems is going to have to work around them. FDev has already taken repeated steps to marginalize the time investment required to make use of them and I doubt there will be any futher major overhaul.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Removing engineers.

Yup, "that" bombshell at first post I feel proud.

For me, the best PvP was always the least organised actually. Find a random dude, he's got a combat ship, he's dropped into your HazRES and is competing with you for kills. Drop a few bullets in his ship, compete for superiority and control.

That's not really a thing any more as you cannot know the state of your opponent's ship in relation to you. Chances are he's heavily un-engineered in comparison, and though I won, it's not the same.

So the only time level footing happens is organised PvP, which is all well and good but ultimately once you've fought "the meta loadout" once you've fought it a hundred times, and it's all too often won/lost on loadout before you've started.

I gotta say the only times I've felt inclined to go toe to toe were against PowerPlay CMDRs who weren't in some "tricked out for PvP FDL".

I like the notion of PvP but as an accidental by product of the "Real" game.

If I had to fight [insert notorious PvP name here ] I would - but only if his ship was equipped for BGS work.
I'm sure I would still get my Asp handed to me on a plate.

But what I encounter is EG: AEDC running a big campaign to #FreeLeesti plenty of hollow squares in the CZs.
We should be able to PvP a CMDR who has chosen the opposing faction.
But the Player Killers don't join a faction for the war (too many opposition ships) they just kill CMDRs.

That's my beef.

There's a bunch of SDC CMDRs who are senior in some of the Empire player groups.
You get killed by them in-game, but they're not pledged to anyone in PowerPlay.
And again - pick a side. What? You can't cope with all the interdictions? You want to kill ALD noobs as well?

You want a PvP consent form?
PowerPlay - if it says "Enemy" in game - go for it.

 

[Morbad]

I like the notion of PvP but as an accidental by product of the "Real" game.

This is how most of my PvP goes...an organic development from conflicts that arise while pursuing opposing goals.

We should be able to PvP a CMDR who has chosen the opposing faction.
But the Player Killers don't join a faction for the war (too many opposition ships) they just kill CMDRs.

That's my beef.

There's a bunch of SDC CMDRs who are senior in some of the Empire player groups.
You get killed by them in-game, but they're not pledged to anyone in PowerPlay.
And again - pick a side. What? You can't cope with all the interdictions? You want to kill ALD noobs as well?

You want a PvP consent form?
PowerPlay - if it says "Enemy" in game - go for it.

Wearing one's allegiance on one's sleeve is not something I find conducive to organic PvP, immersion, or verisimilitude, in most cases. It's bad enough we all have name tags.

One doesn't need to sign up and put on the uniform to contribute to their chosen cause.

 

[StiTch]

no need to be so drastic, engineers can still have a place, i suggested this not long ago:

If you see, below I did state that while it would certainly bring back much fun so wow, it is a suggestion that would never make it...but would be interested in testing removing OC PPs, because one of the real issues we have is absolutely no bottleneck:

So in keeping with the idea 2.1 isn't about to be rolled back:

Remove OC PP upgrades, tweak various power changes against mods.

All the modding in the world is no good if you cannot power them all at once. What 2.1 effectively did was allow players to buff EVERYTHING, which also meant buffing what should have been one of your main bottlenecks for loadout. Stop people overpowering the PP, push them towards a few highly powered modules or a balanced set all round. Over-resistance augmenting not viable without having no attack boosts, meaning offensive/defensive roles can be conceived, and ships designed to have power issues or be forgiving with power retain their unique traits.

Plenty to go wrong but in my eyes would be worth testing.



Oh, and this.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far. I find from reading the results that the best thing Frontier could do for you folks would be to have some kind of CQC system in the main game where ENG mods are disabled and any ship can be entered - this at least would be a move in the right direction and could also lead to some interesting locations to battle in...

Keep the ideas/comments flowing, who knows, hopefully someone at Frontier see's this and decides to have a read

 

[Querty Out]

Engineering could stay in some form. Just let us buy some modification and let us tweak it manually within a very limited range. Dialling up some positive effect also pushes up the negatives. Tweaking one's build then becomes a player skill and a specialisation rather than an endless grind for another lottery ticket in the hope for the jackpot.