Python/Class 6 thruster issue? (Devs please have a look)

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I did some very rudimentary tests the last couple of days with my python, with the goal in mind to test the effect of the different thruster modules on my Python. Partly so I could see just how big an effect an upgraded module has, and also so I can get an idea of how big a change will be made once the Python maneuverability is adjusted.

I attempted to keep everything identical in each test, as much as was possible. I admit this is a bit 'napkin-math'-y, but my results were a little surprising, so I wanted to try to bring it to the attention of the developers so they could check into it and make sure it's working as intended (and if so, perhaps give us a little insight into the thruster module/upgrade system).

The few tests I conducted were as follows: using an identical setup (apart from Thrusters), I would time, using a stopwatch (starting when my controller hit maximum deflection, making 5 attempts and taking the average of the 5), the following maneuvers:

This was the configuration used: http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=305,5TE5TE5TE4yH4yH01Q0Wg,2-7_A07_6uBaA08I,0AA0AA0AA08c08c4-405U7Pc2UI
The only variation was thrusters (note that the mass of the ship varies slightly, since the thrusters themselves have different weights). All tests were conducted with full fuel, empty cargo holds, and in the same location (about 20km away from the station I was using).

4 pips to engines for all of these tests:

Time to Yaw 360 degrees at 50% throttle
Time to roll 360 and 720 degrees, at 50% throttle.
Time to pitch 360 degrees, at 50% throttle
Time to pitch 360 degrees, at 0% throttle
Maximum boost speed
Maximum non-boosted speed

What I found for the class 6 thrusters A > B > D > C > E.

I won't post all the data, but here are the numbers for the 6D and 6C (I'll apologize in advance for the likely crappy formatting):





TestD6 thrusterC6 thruster
Max boosted speed350340
Max normal speed259258
Time to Yaw 360 deg, 50% throttle34.335.2
Time to roll 360 deg, 50% throttle3.353.5
Time to Pitch 360 deg, 50% throttle9.39.4
Time to Pitch 360, 50% throttle22.122.9

As you can see, the C6 thruster is strictly worse than D6 in every category I tested. (also, I found that the C6 thruster is only fractionally better than E6).

Hopefully FD can take a look and shed some light on if this is working as intended, or if perhaps there are some numbers off somewhere.

Thanks!
 
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Actually this is most likely caused by the mass increase of C&E over D, you need to run your tests again with a maximum cargo load (or a minimum one if you did it with)

if you add 300T extra mass, separate from the thrusters you should find the order changes to the usual (I suspect)
 
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Read my post carefully: The tests were conducted with an empty cargo hold.

Now, I didn't conduct these tests with a full cargo load, but I did observe that even with full cargo, the D6 was still very slightly faster boosted and non-boosted than the C6.

Plus, even if what you said is true, does it make sense that whoever it is that makes thrusters in the Elite universe would sell a purportedly 'better' thruster, which costs more, yet performs worse? Come on, man....
 
Actually this is most likely caused by the mass increase of C&E over D, you need to run your tests again with a maximum cargo load (or a minimum one if you did it with)

if you add 300T extra mass, separate from the thrusters you should find the order changes to the usual (I suspect)

Its usually been about side thruster improvement in class C thrusters on other ships. I don't think this is a Python specific thing.

However the (well one of several) problem with the Python is that its thrusters are too good to start with.
 
Obviously.

D is substantially lighter than C so will perform better.

Actually this is most likely caused by the mass increase of C&E over D, you need to run your tests again with a maximum cargo load (or a minimum one if you did it with)

if you add 300T extra mass, separate from the thrusters you should find the order changes to the usual (I suspect)

Also, by you guys' logic, the B6 should be the worst, since it's the heaviest, and it is definitely not. Both A6 and B6 provide significant improvement in all of my tests.

Edit: maybe I should post everything, so people can put it in context...
 
Max tonnage?
Could the advantage be that it'll allow you to carry a larger cargo hold of .... cargo?
Yes the D is "better", but it won't allow you to carry a certain payload?

I had this with the L9. I HAD to up my thrusters before slapping the 256 cargo holds in. Just a thought without any....thought!!!
 
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Also, by you guys' logic, the B6 should be the worst, since it's the heaviest, and it is definitely not. Both A6 and B6 provide significant improvement in all of my tests.

Edit: maybe I should post everything, so people can put it in context...

Mathematically you could achieve this if its on a fairly tight balance point but I suspect your numbers are too far apart for this to be the case so really could be a bug, if the numbers stacked i'd expect B and C to be either side of D with probably a very small variance 5m/s ish.

I'd still be interested in the numbers fully laden.

Currently D>C is a 5.2% increase in mass 442 > 466 (completely empty with lightest modules)
Edit: Your numbers 4.7% Increase 489 > 513
Fully Laden A-Class Trader D>C is 907 > 931 2.6% increase in mass.

If that doesn't cover it its 1 of 2 possibilities

Its bugged

C Thrusters do something else, Cmdr Trickle mentioned side thruster improvements in this class.
 
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All "C" Thrusters not on the Viper seem to demonstrate this. I think it's a bug, as if you strip out another component so the mass is the same, does the C perform better than the D?

Also, the B is even heavier than both C and D, but easily outperforms both.
 
Mathematically you could achieve this if its on a fairly tight balance point but I suspect your numbers are too far apart for this to be the case so really could be a bug, if the numbers stacked i'd expect B and C to be either side of D with probably a very small variance 5m/s ish.

I'd still be interested in the numbers fully laden.

Currently D>C is a 5.2% increase in mass 442 > 466 (completely empty with lightest modules)
Fully Laden A-Class Trader D>C is 907 > 931 2.6% increase in mass.

In my cases, the masses were as follows: D6 : 521.6T C6: 545.6T

When I get a little time, I repost my table with all 5 Thrusters results, so you can get a better idea.

My concern with this is, reading everything that's provided with the game in terms of documentation and help, one tends to assume that each 'better' module is actually 'better' for their ship in some way. Sure there are trade offs, but in this case, it seems that everything is worse.
 
In my cases, the masses were as follows: D6 : 521.6T C6: 545.6T

When I get a little time, I repost my table with all 5 Thrusters results, so you can get a better idea.

My concern with this is, reading everything that's provided with the game in terms of documentation and help, one tends to assume that each 'better' module is actually 'better' for their ship in some way. Sure there are trade offs, but in this case, it seems that everything is worse.

Yeah sorry I hadn't seen your shipyard link initially i edited in your numbers, I suspect its another piece of "hidden" data lol, like everythin else ><

I only run D or A.... so It kinda just fit in my hidden suspicion :p
 
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Full results table:

TestA6B6C6D6E6
Max boost speed383373340350338
Max speed290283258259257
Time to yaw 360 deg, 50% throttle31.432.135.234.335.3
Time to roll 360 deg ,50% throttle3.153.23.53.4
3.5
Time to pitch 360 deg, 50% throttle8.88.99.49.39.5
time to pitch 360 deg, 0% throttle20.420.822.922.123.0
Mass of ship for each test: (Forgot to add this as a column, sorry):
D6: 521.6T
A6, C6, E6: 545.6T
B6: 569.6T
 
Wow thats bizarre , That really is quite a heavy underperformance you'd expect it to sit right on 360, I've got good faith in your numbers too as I happen to weigh almost exactly your test weight and I use A6 thrusters lol, love that 383!
 
Full results table:

TestA6B6C6D6E6
Max boost speed383373340350338
Max speed290283258259257
Time to yaw 360 deg, 50% throttle31.432.135.234.335.3
Time to roll 360 deg ,50% throttle3.153.23.53.4
3.5
Time to pitch 360 deg, 50% throttle8.88.99.49.39.5
time to pitch 360 deg, 0% throttle20.420.822.922.123.0
Mass of ship for each test: (Forgot to add this as a column, sorry):
D6: 521.6T
A6, C6, E6: 545.6T
B6: 569.6T

Did you have a look at acceleration/deceleration times? 0 to max speed and max speed to 0? (Or has that been published elsewhere?)

Thanks for all that hard work. A little rep for you. :)
 
Wow thats bizarre , That really is quite a heavy underperformance you'd expect it to sit right on 360, I've got good faith in your numbers too as I happen to weigh almost exactly your test weight and I use A6 thrusters lol, love that 383!

Thanks, I admit there is a lot of potential for human error, given that I was just using a hand held stopwatch, and my own 'timing'. But, that's why I did each test several times and averaged the results. In general I was not finding a lot of variation, so that made me feel like it was pretty repeatable. I am hoping Mike Evans will chime in on this one, since I've seen him post a lot of things that suggest he is very aware of a lot of the 'numbers' behind how the ships work :D

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Did you have a look at acceleration/deceleration times? 0 to max speed and max speed to 0? (Or has that been published elsewhere?)

Thanks for all that hard work. A little rep for you. :)

You know, that one didn't occur to me, but that's a good idea! I don't know if I can be bothered to go do this again though, as I think I've stumbled onto the holy grail of python trade routes and I want to milk it before it's gone :D! But, seriously, if I get some time this weekend, assuming they haven't nerfed the Python by then, I would be happy to do some more tests. It might be good for someone else to do something similar though, and see if their results line up with mine!

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How about using cargo to ensure your ship has exactly the same mass for each test?

That's not a bad idea!
 
Along with Acc/Dec times look at power-draw, boost recharge time, and the heat levels when at max speed and boost.
 
Heat is affected by all running equipment, and thrusters FSD etc run up a greater deal of heat when charging/boosting. Better quality equipment has greater heat efficiencies. I don't know if the recharge times are affected by the client systems or not, it was just a reccomendation :)
 
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