Question about K-class orange "super" giants

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 25, 2019

It appears I managed to find (but not yet reach) a "K0 I" star. This should be an orange super-giant, right? I downloaded the K-class orange giant list of stars from ED Astrometrics and looked at the file, but there are no stars with luminosity class I. The brightest appear to be II.

The downside of my finding: It might be reachable from what I can see, but there will not be a way to get back out of the system afterwards, so it'd be a one-way ticket to hell...

I'm planning to return to the bubble prematurely (just a little bit, my current trip has mostly been completed) just to sell off my data and then return to the area where I spotted said giant.

Before I undertake this operation, my question is: Are K0 I stars really rare? Would this be worth it? Seen lots of K0 II, but never luminosity class I.

Thanks!

MPL3D · Aug 25, 2019

Don't know about 'ED Astrometrics', perhaps you should check a real star catalogue like SIMBAD

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 25, 2019

ED Astrometrics can be found [here]. Very useful page!

Anyway, thank you for the link. Interestingly enough, real data suggests a different spectral class for this star: G instead of K. It shouldn't be procedurally generated though, because it's named.

Meanwhile I found another K-type star with luminosity class I just now though, "46 Psi-1 Aurigae". So those are just the "red supergiants", not orange ones. I assume there are no M types with luminosity class I then?

MPL3D · Aug 26, 2019

Hey thanks for the link. You mean red super giants? Visit Betelgeuse then. There should be many other famous ones.

I do not use to mention it, but if you want yo see the real spectral class with astrophysics you may want to download my software or watch the youtube videos. All the stars represented there are placed with real data only, and it has a newtonian spaceship as well as a free camera mode, although it only has visible stars with the naked eye, with an vmag<14.

Red supergiants are not spherical because of their low density, they have huge sizes and low masses, about to burn out of fuel. Very interesting ones.

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 26, 2019

I'm not overly knowledgeable when it comes to stellar objects, so I'm basically learning on the side while playing the game.

I thought stars of spectral class K would always be called yellow-orange or orange stars. My simple-minded deduction was, that class M stars with spectral class I would be red super giants and class K stars with spectral class I would be orange super giants. That's how I got confused.

Also: I'm greedy when it comes to first discoveries of course.

While I'm planning to visit some well-known giant stars in the future, my current goal is still to find some undiscovered rarities.

I've even found a single red super giant before (should be tagged by me by now), that was somewhere in the galactic centre. It's only now that I remember that I was confused by its spectral class "K" back then too. In the meantime, I had just forgotten about it, as that was several months ago.

Hmm, but then again, a red super giant, rather far out and impossible to return from... might be worth wasting a ship on!

I've downloaded your simulator, will try it when I get back home!

Caramel Clown · Aug 30, 2019

GrandAdmiralThrawn said:
I'm not overly knowledgeable when it comes to stellar objects, so I'm basically learning on the side while playing the game. I thought stars of spectral class K would always be called yellow-orange or orange stars. My simple-minded deduction was, that class M stars with spectral class I would be red super giants and class K stars with spectral class I would be orange super giants. That's how I got confused.

Also: I'm greedy when it comes to first discoveries of course. While I'm planning to visit some well-known giant stars in the future, my current goal is still to find some undiscovered rarities.

I've even found a single red super giant before (should be tagged by me by now), that was somewhere in the galactic centre. It's only now that I remember that I was confused by its spectral class "K" back then too. In the meantime, I had just forgotten about it, as that was several months ago.

Hmm, but then again, a red super giant, rather far out and impossible to return from... might be worth wasting a ship on!

I've downloaded your simulator, will try it when I get back home!

In any case you won't be able to put your name on it, since you can't return from that system. You only get tags when you hand in the data

However, if that doesn't bother you I'm interested to see the thing if you decide to visit it. Keep us posted

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 30, 2019

I'm aware of it being untaggable. But I guess this is the strange feeling mountain climbers or polar expeditioners get.. For now I have successfully returned to the bubble and acquired a Guardian FSD booster, which cost me a day.

With this, my chances to reach it should be as high as they'll get without extensive engineering. I've downgraded my larger SRV bay, power plant and power distributor to save weight though. Since I.... let's call it "dislike"... the concept of engineering (or rather the excessive material acquisition required for it), I'll not go further than this.

What's left is to just rush back to that area of space, make my attempt to reach the target, and document everything.

The only thing that makes my heart ache a bit is that I'd have to throw away my vessel - the Dinnerbell - which has kept me alive for almost half a year in the void now. I did grow quite attached to it. But then again, buying a second DBX and doing that horrible FSD engineering all over again... urk...

Edit: It appears that I'm missing 15 × Datamined Wake Exceptions, 7 × Chemical Processors and 5 × Chemical Distillery for another fully engineered FSD.. Hm. Not too bad..

Zieman · Aug 30, 2019

GrandAdmiralThrawn said:
The only thing that makes my heart ache a bit is that I'd have to throw away my vessel - the Dinnerbell - which has kept me alive for almost half a year in the void now. I did grow quite attached to it. But then again, buying a second DBX and doing that horrible FSD engineering all over again... urk...

This part puzzles me. Why would you need a second DBX, if you already fly one? Just store unneeded modules & engineer the rest suitably (if not already engineered).

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 30, 2019

Because if I have to self-destruct it in the target system (which I very likely will have to, unless there's an undetected Neutron star in there), and then rebuy it, it just won't be the same "Dinnerbell" anymore.

Are you familiar with the "Ship of Theseus" problem? For me, a rebuy would just take away the "identity" of that ship... Call it emotional attachment.

Zieman · Aug 30, 2019

GrandAdmiralThrawn said:
Because if I have to self-destruct it in the target system (which I very likely will have to, unless there's an undetected Neutron star in there), and then rebuy it, it just won't be the same "Dinnerbell" anymore.

Are you familiar with the "Ship of Theseus" problem? For me, a rebuy would just take away the "identity" of that ship... Call it emotional attachment.

Ah, now I understand.

I did same when I took part in the Distant Stars expedition which was a one-way trip.

ShadowWolf Kell · Aug 30, 2019

Tons of untagged super giants around the core. That's where I found untagged O, B, WC, C super giants. There is a super giant K near Barnaard's Loop. There's also a super giant B (Rigel, shows as B on the GalMap, A in the system) and G (EZ Orionis.) Quite a few Carbon and Wolf Rayet stars around and even a triple black hole system. Some may be difficult to reach now days due to the permit locked area. I believe the K is within COL 70. It's near the 2MASS ribbon iirc. The M of course is Betelguese and you'll find all of these stars relatively close by Barnaard's Loop and the Orion Nebula. Highest nebula density in the game, so it's worth visiting just for that alone.

Really the only thing hard to find to tag is a planetary nebula, and specific Wolf Rayet stars. Herbig AE stars and White Dwarfs tend to be rare as the primary star too.

Giant and super giant Ks and Ms are actually pretty common as they're the most common main sequence stars in the galaxy. The density around the core magnifies this 10,000 fold.

Jumping into a system you can't get back out of won't allow you to tag the star. You'll retain the data on your Galaxy and System maps, but Universal Cartographics won't receive the data, so you won't be able to tag it. None of the tagged system from Distant Stars are legit, since none of us returned with the data. That's why we worked hard to build a database to post online, and why there's an Anaconda Graveyard to commemorate the event.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xuW2zJH1vXNEBtlr7GPPHoLNhgFtaZw02iuN1hir6BY/edit#gid=0

As for self destructing, you won't need to worry about a replacement ship provided you accept the rebuy. You'll respawn at the last place you docked at, in the exact ship you destroyed. If you don't accept the rebuy, you'll lose ALL your modules when you choose to start in a Freewinder or Freagle.

If you're looking for a challenge, heading out towards the rim would be your best bet. Finding one high/low along the rim would make for a spectacular view.

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 30, 2019

I'll accept the rebuy, but I'll do it in a separate "throw-away" ship I don't care about. That's not much of a problem it seems. After looking at my materials, I might even get away with engineering a second ship with zero grind.

When it comes to first discoveries, I only found one class K red super giant so far. Wolf-Rayet? I got all of them (several of each kind) minus a hand-placed one. Herbigs are easy, as are Carbon stars (got all of those too). They're literally everywhere in the centre, but super giants? I've only seen a handful so far. Even Wolf-Rayet stars appeared much more common to me than class K or M super giants. It's just the regular class K giants that seem to be really common?

Haven't tagged a planetary nebula though, and no supernova remnant nebula either... They're too easy for people to see.

Anyway, I don't care too much about the tag. I just want to get there!

I'll try to build my "throw-away" tin can today. If I can make it, I may even head out this evening.

Pirin · Aug 30, 2019

I spent a lot of time hunting all sorts of giants/hypergiants. From my experience K? I are rare, but not so rare to destroy your ship just to visit one. If you spend some time in Core, probably you will find few of these. I think i have tagged 4-5 while searching for the elusive procedure generated red hypergiants.
Now, if we talking about K? IA0 - this is a different story. I have never seen such hypergiant. The same is valid for M? I and M? IA0

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 30, 2019

It's a K0 I. Anyway, I've done a bit of wake scanning, so I got my 15 datamined wake exceptions, bought a second DBX, called it "Yumeko-chan" and had it painted in sexy violet. Then I had its FSD engineered to the maximum, resulting in a laden jump range of 68.18Ly. Not too shabby I think. With that done, I jumped out more than 8000Ly in one go to once again reach the vicinity of [BD+46 1067], my target not being too far from it. To boldly die, where noone has died before!

Now the rest of what happened afterwards... I will tell you tomorrow!

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 31, 2019

Alright, this is what happened yesterday night.

1. The approach

First I arrived at [HIP 25704] for the second time, a Neutron star that I thought I would've tagged for sure. But it seems another commander has brought the data home before me... oh well. Must've been a close call:

When I was in the area the last time, I plotted a somewhat probable course to my target, although this was purely manual guesswork, so I couldn't have been perfectly sure whether it would've worked. But then again, that was for my former ship, the Dinnerbell. A DBX with a maximum jump range of 228Ly with Neutron boost. The vessel I'm currently flying is more well-tuned for range and comes with less compromise, resulting in ~272Ly of boosted range. Well, from here I only went one way: Up!

The next stops, all Neutrons: [Myeadai YE-X d2-0], [Pheia Aeg TM-W d1-0] & [Pheia Aeg ZD-T d3-0]. The last one wasn't actually necessary, but I guess I got a bit nervous and thus visited yet another Neutron star instead of my actual target.

I could've reached it from Pheia Aeg TM-W d1-0 already, so my guess was correct; At a distance of 225Ly, my old ship could've made the jump as well:

And now you know my goal: [HD 40064], the K0 I red supergiant I had mentioned.

Now I was sitting there, hesitating... I mean, I essentially came here with suicidal intent, and I even built a new ship specifically for this event, but when the time to flip the switch on the hyperdrive had come.. I still got cold feet for a minute or two.

But in the end... I came here for that star, so I wouldn't just turn back either. Let's do it!

(That's one dim supergiant though...)

2. HD 40064

Alright, I'm in!! And it's not even a boring one-body system!

Alright, let's take a look at the system map after having scanned the whole system:

Heh, of course I wouldn't be as lucky as to get a free Neutron star thrown in.

The two gas giants are both class IV, then there is one larger ringed high-metal content world and a whole lot of metal-rich bodies. Most of them are very small though, with some having radii below 200km. The second gas giant appears to be one of the "glowing red" ones, so that's going to be the first planet to inspect.

3. Surveying HD 40064

With all that light coming from the huge star (102 R☉, but only 0.69 M☉), the reddish gas giant is being illuminated really well:

(No need to brighten this photo actually... That's how much light there was)

Now, for my moment of Zen, I decided to land on one of its metal-rich moons and gaze upon the gas giant and the massive ball of fire behind it:

Now, due to the maxium number of images per post limitation, I shall continue this report in the next post.

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 31, 2019

Alright, on to the slightly more boring, larger gas giant. Also a class IV, this one has rings (have I already mentioned that I love rings?):

It's pretty beige alright:

See that protuberance? I wonder how large that is, and how much mass is being ejected there...

Anyway, let's take a look at the last object that caught my interest, the larger high-metal content world on the outermost part of the system. Ah, and forgive me, I just had to play around with its rings for a while...

Gorgeous stuff!

Well, that about sums it up I guess. I'll spare you the twin moons and the other metal-rich pebbles, as I am sure you've seen more than your fair share of those already. Now, there is just one last question left to answer here:

Can you get out of this system?!?

4. Escape route?

The answer is: Maybe... just maybe. But not with my ship, I guess. Take a look at this:

144.46Ly, as you can see, that's the closest one. Now that alone is problematic enough, but to top it off, that's a white dwarf star. And no, there are no scoopables in there. It's only stellar companion is a class T brown dwarf... uh.

Let's take a look at Yumeko's jump capabilities with a +100% inject:

As you can see, I could reach that place. If fuel wouldn't have any mass, that is.

I wonder whether I could throw away my SRV to save some? It should weigh in at 4 tons as far as I know, but I'm not sure if it's the bay itself that weighs that much or if it's really just the SRV.

A very optimistic plan: I could scrap my SRV, then use up all my fuel down to the last tons and make that 144.46Ly jump. From there, not being able to scoop and with too little fuel to make any additional jumps, I would need the help of the fuel rats to truly escape.

But then again, I am quite reluctant to ask them for help when it wasn't an accident or mistake, but clearly all my own, intentional actions that lead to this situation. So I guess I won't be doing that.

I assume there is no easy way to burn a lot of fuel fast, other than pulling as much juice from the power plant as possible.. I can't just dump it, right? Well, I can just fly around in that system to slowly burn it.

In any case, reaching that system and getting back out alive.. would make one nice challenge.

Rudi Raumkraut · Aug 31, 2019

It will not help to get rid of the srv, AFAIK, and you can't dump fuel without a weapon with plasma slug effect (which uses fuel to reload)
But you can supercruise for some hours, until you lost that many fuel that you can jump that 144ly.
You will arrive with not enough fuel for a full jump, but maybe for a 30-40 ly one, which still can be doubled with a premium injection. (just a estimate, maybe someone can do the Calc

)
So all it might need is a scoopable star within around 60 ly from that white dwarf..

Otherwise I think the fuel rats will still like to help although you got in danger by intent

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 31, 2019

I've been looking around that white dwarf, and there are two eligible stars, a class F and a class A one. But I'm not so sure about those 30-40Ly, ~~because I don't even know if I can make the first jump at all, even with just 5 tons of fuel left.~~

Correction: It appears the first jump won't be the issue, my mistake.

I'll definitely try, but not today.

Reason: Seems I caught the flu, which'll probably keep me from playing games for a few days.

Rudi Raumkraut · Aug 31, 2019

GrandAdmiralThrawn said:
I've been looking around that white dwarf, and there are two eligible stars, a class F and a class A one. But I'm not so sure about those 30-40Ly, because I don't even know if I can make the first jump at all, even with just 5 tons of fuel left.

your screeny from the right cockpit panel says, max range is 145.73 Ly.
This is calculated with just the fuel for one full jump. So you are able to jump 144ly to the WD...

But I cant say how far you can get with 6 or 7t of fuel on board, so that you would have enough for a second jump after the 144Ly one

GrandAdmiralThrawn · Aug 31, 2019

Alright, that was my mistake. Well, I wanted to try it anyway. I can waste some fuel flying around and mapping that system.

Will try as soon as I feel able to.

Edit: Flying while sick isn't the best of ideas... but anyway, I've mapped everything. That went much faster than I thought. Burning fuel sure is a time-consuming process if you can't use your hyperdrive to do it.

Switched from VR to 2D, now Elite is running in a window with my DBX just "sitting" there at 30km/s pointing into empty space to burn fuel. That's gonna take a while. With a 2A power plant, there is only so much you can burn... I'm at 1.48 tons per hour with a 99% load on the PP...

Edit 2: Holy crap, this is going to take forever!

Edit 3: Yep, I'm thinking... I'm just gonna leave it like that over night. Even if I check in as late as 10:00 am tomorrow morning, it should've still only burned ~19T of fuel... gonna burn some energy on my graphics card as well.

Edit 4: I just woke up, my ship still cruising at 30km/s, wasting fuel. This has been going on for... roughly 11 hours now. Still not there... So I decided to land on one of the tiny metal-rich worlds for one last time to try and scrap my SRV.

So I picked the closest place, which was a moon of this guy:

Landed & SRV deployed:

Since just switching off life support was too boring, I decided to jump around and ram that vehicle into the ground as hard as I could, bottom-up. It took three attempts for the SRV to finally break apart.

Rudi Raumkraut was exactly right though, I can confirm that now. While illogical, dumping your SRV does indeed not reduce the mass of your ship. Too bad.

Back to mindlessly burning fuel then. Currently sitting at 143.00Ly of range. Another 1½ hours or so, and I will know whether I can truly escape or not!