Questions about Security

I am also worried this becomes a routine, run of the mill, maintenance annoyance....

It is inescapably just routine already, and will always be so. "Crime" is just another name for litter, "guard" is just another name for janitor, and "camera" is just another name for bin. Period, end of story. Buy as many bins cameras as you think you need, hire 1 janitor guard per park area and assign him the same work roster as the guard janitor you already have, and forget about it. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING has been added to the game apart from an increased CPU load for the additional AI calculations and the micromanagement needed to keep the guards from quitting.
 
LoL are you serious? Vandalism has been a part of the RCT series since it was originally released,

And as can be mathematically demonstrated, it was a maladaptive thing then and is a maladaptive thing now. All it does is make you hire redundant "janitors" to handle redundant "liter" and make the game engine do redundant AI calculations for causing and correcting both. If you want the same effect as all the stuff you constantly clamor about, only without the redundant CPU cycles and increased micromanagement, just slash your prices by however many percent you think you should be spending on redundant, meaningless RCT-whatever stuff.
 
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That's exactly how it works - for sandbox you can simply turn crime off if you'd rather not deal with it!

Cheers

Andy

It should be this way in all game modes, not just sandbox. Seriously, how is crime and punishment any different from sweeping up litter? Why should we have to accept the same FPS hit twice for something that can just be factored into overall pricing?
 
And as can be mathematically demonstrated

I enjoy your sense of logic, but I can see you saying that about a lot of "game mechanics" and you are also the type of gamer/player who would probably prefer the game to have no obstacles at all.

I'm sure when this feature is released it will not affect any old saves or original scenarios. Frontier will probably only apply this to newer/harder scenarios and not easy/medium challenges, so its not like its going to ruin the game.

As for it being meaningless and a trivial waste of our frame rates? Well the same can be said for guests clumping up in groups versus walking through each other. Or for entertainers which might increase guest happiness, but brings in no profits so you might as well not slow down your guests from spending money, right? Its sort of like how in RCT breakdowns came in a variety. You had breaks fail, restraints get jammed, etc. but in PC its always just a "breakdown" does it matter? No it just draws you in a little more

For me, its something that draws the player into the game. The first time I saw broken lamps and benches in RCT1 I was like "OOHHHH NOOOO How did this happen? I have to fix this!" and it made me care about my parks more. But you wouldn't understand that feeling of nostalgia. I think having things told to us before we experience them takes a lot of the fun out of it.

I'm also not somebody who thinks frame rate is that big of a deal, because in a few years will have faster CPUs

/end of edits [cool]
 
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Or for entertainers which might increase guest happiness, but brings in no profits so you might as well not slow down your guests from spending money, right?

This. I can understand if people aren't keen on security in the game, it's a personal opinion, but when they say they bring nothing into the game except wasted money when entertainers serve basically no purpose to any sort of gameplay it's a bit hypocritical.
I don't see anybody hating on entertainers.

I think people are hating way too early. We have no idea how common these events will be and how it is going to work. But my money is on people barely noticing that it's happening, just like not noticing what your other staff are up to. They just go and solve the problem without you having to worry too much.
 
I enjoy your sense of logic, but I can see you saying that about a lot of "game mechanics" and you are also the type of gamer/player who would probably prefer the game to have no obstacles at all.

No, I like obstacles, provided they're meaningful. I don't like climbing the same hill over and over, the only difference being different models, textures, and animations that do nothing but increase CPU/GPU overhead for no return except increased micromanagement. Security guards and the need for them are not only completely redundant with janitors, but also pollute the happy place I play the game to create. So I hate the whole idea for 2 distinct reasons, one totally objective and measurable, the other completely subjective. Being a rational being, I will refrain from mentioning my subjective objection any further---I think I've made my point there. But my objective objections cannot be refuted with any rational argument. And the same can be said for any other so-called "feature" that adds no new obstacles to gameplay other than an increase in monthly park overhead combined with an increase in utterly redundant micromanagement.

This is the point at which we are always at odds and I don't see that changing. What you regard as essential things I see as either something we already have only with different cosmetics (ex. janitors vs. security), or a needless, no-difference-to-the-bottom line complication of something the game already models (ex. limiting the hours the park is open vs. actually having to herd everybody out the gate). And I note with some irony that the only really new obstacle Frontier has added, ride aging, was universally condemned by those wanting new complications to management.

At the bottom line, anything that falls in the "park overhead" category, such as the costs of crime and the guards necessary to mitigate it, is best handled abstractly. The effect on the player's bottom line is simply that the cost of operating his park is higher, so he makes less profit for a given number of customers. You would get the exact same effect by adding an extra line to the operating costs of any attraction or shop, essentially a tax. If you opened the money tab of a coaster, besides expenses for cars, utilities, and whatnot, there'd be another line for security, say -$50/month. Or you, as a player with free will, could just reduce the ticket prices to have the same effect, without Frontier having to waste time and effort developing the redundant, CPU-intensive stuff that so-called "features" like security entail. Instead, Frontier could be developing actual new content, fixing bugs, or developing PC2.
 
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It should be this way in all game modes, not just sandbox. Seriously, how is crime and punishment any different from sweeping up litter? Why should we have to accept the same FPS hit twice for something that can just be factored into overall pricing?

I don't know... Maybe because watching the security guys do their jobs would presumably offer some level of entertainment? Perhaps they could even introduce some of the ideas I suggested... (Such as nausea inducing stink bombs going off leaving an AOE on the path that might make some gusts throw up, cherry bombs going off in the bathrooms causing them to be closed until a janitor can fix the toilet while the security guys chase down the culprit... Flaming garbage cans that need to be put out with a fire extinguisher...?)

I guess these just seem like the kinds of things that might be amusing to see happen from time to time... (As in perhaps security guys working as a sort of mess prevention too, by possibly catching the punks before they can set off the stink bomb for instance and thus prevent people from throwing up on your paths...)
 
You would get the exact same effect by adding an extra line to the operating costs of any attraction or shop, essentially a tax. If you opened the money tab of a coaster, besides expenses for cars, utilities, and whatnot, there'd be another line for security, say -$50/month. Or you, as a player with free will, could just reduce the ticket prices to have the same effect.

I have suggested some ideas to make the game have obstacles that do not pertain to monthly income. I in fact (partially) agree with you on this point about the subjectivity of another monthly decrease in profits. Security brings a lose lose situation (financially) being that you have to pay for more staff, or lose park rating. However, it brings about an interaction with the park if you are not taking care of it, and security seems like it would be part of "owning" and "operating" your own personal theme park. Just IMO it feels like a necessary part of the game.

But is there an idea you had that could add obstacles without being purely a number/expense based obstacle? I mean, I could name a few but I already have in other threads.
 
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I don't know... Maybe because watching the security guys do their jobs would presumably offer some level of entertainment?

Is watching janitors and mechanics entertaining? Why should watching guards be any different? Most of the time, they'd just be swaggering along twirling their billyclubs, same as with janitors twirling their brooms. Who wants to watch that more than once?

Perhaps they could even introduce some of the ideas I suggested... (Such as nausea inducing stink bombs going off leaving an AOE on the path that might make some gusts throw up, cherry bombs going off in the bathrooms causing them to be closed until a janitor can fix the toilet while the security guys chase down the culprit... Flaming garbage cans that need to be put out with a fire extinguisher...?)

And perhaps they could introduce some ideas I suggested, such as free and armed citizens shooting such perps on sight, to general applause. I assume all my customers are packing, and actively encourage it. That way, I don't have to pay for guards.
 
Is watching janitors and mechanics entertaining? Why should watching guards be any different? Most of the time, they'd just be swaggering along twirling their billyclubs, same as with janitors twirling their brooms. Who wants to watch that more than once?
well, I don't know I just have played this series since Theme Park in 1994 and janitors was always a necessary part of park maintenance. No seeing puke is not fun, we want our parks clean, and back in 1994's Theme Park and in classic RCT, janitors mowed the grass and watered plants which made things look nicer. I think it would be cool if they could bring that back.


And perhaps they could introduce some ideas I suggested, such as free and armed citizens shooting such perps on sight, to general applause. I assume all my customers are packing, and actively encourage it. That way, I don't have to pay for guards.
they already removed deaths from the game, theres quite a lot of "RCT death parks" on youtube. But PC is not that kind of game. and obviously your not being serious


If PC didn't have any type of staff, no mechanics, no ride breakdowns, that would be ridiculously boring lol
 
I have suggested some ideas to make the game have obstacles that do not pertain to monthly income. I in fact (partially) agree with you on this point about the subjectivity of another monthly decrease in profits. Security brings a lose lose situation (financially) being that you have to pay for more staff, or lose park rating. However, it brings about an interaction with the park if you are not taking care of it, and security seems like it would be part of "owning" and "operating" your own personal theme park. Just IMO it feels like a necessary part of the game.

But really, how is this any different at all from having too few janitors to empty the bins and sweep up the overflow?

But is there an idea you had that could add obstacles without being purely a number/expense based obstacle? I mean, I could name a few but I already have in other threads.

Well, back when I first got the game and hadn't researched how it actually works, I did suggest a few things that, in retrospect, I realize now were either already handled elsewhere or were better left as abstractions. Since then, I've tried to limit my suggestions to interface improvements, bug reports, and similar things within the context of the game as it is, which really isn't going to change in any substantial way until PC2.

But to answer your question directly, no, I have not suggested any additional obstacles that are substantially different from anything we already have. And neither have you, really. Which is my main point.

* It costs X amount to run a park of a given size and complexity. This is all overhead, made up of staff salaries, ride operating costs, etc., including security, multiple shifts, vacation, liability insurance, workers' compensation insurance, taxes at all levels of government, employee pension plans and benefits, you name it. Pretty much all suggested additional obstacles fall into this category and can easily be abstracted by jiggering a few values, rather than acutally implementing a whole system for it, which just eats into CPU / GPU time.

* Peeps are only willing to spend Y amount for any given thing. This is the easiest way to implement all the additional overhead suggestions. Just reduce how much peeps are willing to pay for anything by whatever percent seems appropriate. For example, right now, you can charge (ride prestige) / 37.6 and nobody will complain about the ticket price. But what if that was 37.0 or even less?

* Ride aging. This throws a curveball at park managers because it makes their income stream time-dependent. As such, it creates an incentive to add new stuff on a regular schedule, which means the money to do that has to be available, which means the effects of everything above that reduce income are compounded. And besides, this gets folks out of their comfortable steady state. So many folks hate this. But you have to admit, it's a new and different obstacle. Any other new and different obstacles would have be be along this sort of line instead of just another way to increase overhead.
 
But really, how is this any different at all from having too few janitors to empty the bins and sweep up the overflow?
You can manually replace broken objects, where as you dont manually clean up litter

* Ride aging

Ride aging works in reverse, punishing players for doing nothing wrong (having a mid aged coaster lose profits) while rewarding a player for having old rides. The original RCT had an end goal, a time limit for each scenario or you would fail. In PC the ride aging mechanic simply slows things down until the player reaches the "reward state" of having older rides, which essentially boosts all profits allowing the completion of objectives to become even easier. Which IMO reduces replay value

And neither have you, really.
An idea I always enjoyed from the game Theme Hospital was having employees train other employees to advance their skills. So in that game a basic doctor could become a surgeon, or a psychiatrist. In PC we could have janitors get promoted to being a mechanic or possibly have the ability to do both. Its not a major game changer, but something to tweak the way we "train" our employees. Also an employee break room would be cool, maybe even with staff changing shifts
 
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Ride aging works in reverse, punishing players for doing nothing wrong (having a mid aged coaster lose profits) while rewarding a player for having old rides. The original RCT had an end goal, a time limit for each scenario or you would fail. In PC the ride aging mechanic simply slows things down until the player reaches the "reward state" of having older rides, which essentially boosts all profits allowing the completion of objectives to become even easier. Which IMO reduces replay value

Just like chess, every empire-building game goes through an opening, a mid-game, and an end-game phase. In the opening, you don't have much but you're not facing much opposition, either, so you can get off to a good, if simple, start. Then the mid-game starts, which is where the real work is. Now you're having to face serious opposition with usually not enough resources. It's always a long period of desperate struggle full of hard decisions and periodic set-backs. But with proper playing, you make a little net progress continually until you finally reach some critical mass. After that, you're the dominant power and you enter the end-game, which is where you easily crush all remaining opposition with your overwhelming strength.

Seems to me the ride-aging system follows this same template. As a ride goes through its life cycle, it helps you in the opening, then is one of the challenges of the bloody mid-game grind, until eventually it becomes part of your invincible end-game juggernaut. It's not punishment, it's not working in reverse, it's just a very traditional and straight-forward empire-building game element.
 
Thats like saying Bowser should be easier to beat then a goomba, so I dont agree with your logic there... Its funny, because I prefer games that are tightly knit and can go "back and forth". Chess is a game that can go back and forth, like many games one player can have the lead and then lose that lead. But thats also a competitive versus game. Single player games are supposed to get increasingly more difficult as you approach the "end game"

A game should not become "easier" just because your rides are old or because you've been playing a long time. Thats like the game saying "ok you got me I give up" just bcuz you sat there waiting around lol?? Its basically holding the players hand saying "dont worry you cant possibly lose at this game" and if you think thats a good mechanic for game making, then I would never play any games you make [tongue]
 
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i think the aging is good as is.
it boosts the challenge level as time passes, but only for a while.
as the park ages, the success of old classics can compensate for the aging of newer attractions.
without this, i think it'd be a buzz-kill grind, and people would just switch it off.

however... in career mode it enables the exploit of just waiting, rather than learning.
well..... i think the player suffers there, it's a bit like saving and reloading a single-player FPS because you cannot be bothered actually figuring out better ways to play.

but on balance, i like it.
 
in career mode it enables the exploit of just waiting, rather than learning.
well..... i think the player suffers there

that^ is my whole point. Its the same in challenge mode, once you have a decent sized park you just have to wait for your rides to become old and then all the challenge is gone.

In RCTclassic if you failed to achieve the objective in time, it gave you the incentive of trying a different technique. I mean, once you figure out the trick of building a couple small launch coasters you can get all the profits you need anyway, I was just hoping with PC they would have stepped up the challenge a little.

I don't consider this one thing to ruin the game, but I do think there should be incentive to try and beat the objectives, rather than just waiting them out. Most scenarios in RCT were limited to less than 10 years, but in RCT3 they changed that, and I think having the ride aging system go beyond 20 years is silly because I rarely let my parks get that old.

RCT felt more like a puzzle to me, because of its design, the shape of scenarios were small and unique to try and fill every nook and cranny. But in PC the scenarios are all the same large open square, and if I'm going to try and fill up every nook and cranny I might as well play sandbox. I guess my biggest problem is that I've played all the original scenarios and I was hoping for something different. Like more coaster based challenges, instead of seeing "gain more guests" repeatedly listed as an objective
 
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I think its actually good that Frontier is reintroducing security guards to the game. It shows their dedication to the game and their efforts to give us something which many have asked for, but honestly, it shouldn't be touted as some amazing addition. We all know It should already be in the game. To me, its not a big deal and its not really a management improvement. Id like to see some real improvements not just the addition of another employee with a cute animation sequence that I'm going to be bored with after viewing 2 times. Like i said, wash, rinse, repeat humdrum.

As for bringing challenges to Planet Coaster that don't just effect the bottom line:
Challenge mode with a Random Terrain Generator. Imagine a map that is full of water, crevices, and mountains with only a percentage of land (depending on difficulty level) that is flat. And, Maybe once generated, the map cannot be altered. Build a successful park on that. To me, that sounds way more challenging than paying a security guard. Not only that, as far as programming goes, It can't be that hard to add. Its just an algorithm that would generate land and because its just land, it wouldn't effect CPU frame rates or processing.
 
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