Questions about the current CG mechanics

[Northpin]

Did you ever have to wait to land in solo ? I did, but not much.

Yes, but not very often and not for very long. It's still enough to throw me out of my attempts at optimized routines.

Why don't certain faction NPCs block a station when I deliver cargo that hinders their goals ?

What gameplay is in this?
I can live with npc's trying to interdict me on my way to the station. Even more than once in 100ls
Even when i'm just about to drop off the supercruise at the station - the most annoying interdiction type ever.

But a blocked pad has no gameplay in it - it's just a blocker.
You may as well quit the game for the day and pretend the pad was blocked by a stubborn NPC

 

[zeta]

Yes I do, otherwise I would not have taken the time to write it.

NPCs would not copy individual player behavior, more like if large amounts of players in a system act in the same way, for example, not-blocking-pad, then neither would NPCs.

BGS probably works along these lines otherwise I cannot fathom how my actions influence the galaxy.

 

[Ettanin]

Note I used 'aggregated' player behavior. For example, if 90% of players in open, or at time 't-1' do not themselves block the pad (their average time of dock/undock is under 2 min) , you in solo, or at time 't' would not be waiting at all.

prone to cheating. What happens in an instance is not controlled by FDev but by all peers connected in that instance.

There is no way for the BGS or whatever system to cleanly validate reported actions.

 

[zeta]

prone to cheating. What happens in an instance is not controlled by FDev but by all peers connected in that instance.

There is no way for the BGS or whatever system to cleanly validate reported actions.

That is a point I did not consider, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[HRDiagram]

The point being is that the phrase "everyone should be able to play the game the way they want to" is clearly not possible.

If I want player driven actions matter (e.g. I stay in open and don't land), then since NPCs do not mimick player behavior (block the pad in solo), I cannot compete in the CG with those who switch to solo. The player who blocks, and let's give her/him the benefit of the doubt that s/he is not afk, also cannot really influence the galaxy. Therefore only those, who switch to solo are able to play as they wish, not the player blocking and not me waiting.

To be clear, I am not advocating for open-only. I am advocating for the solo-ed-galaxy to have some resemblance of the galaxy that has players in it, humans with consciousness, whether they choose to play in open or solo, because human decisions make the galaxy interesting to play in.

I am not unsympathetic to what you say, but you are asking that, since your preferred experience has some Richards spoiling it, then so should everyone else.

Incidentally, I find the whole thing of blocking one pad incredibly stupid and rather a result of poor implementation.

If NPCs had to block pads, by the same token, all pads, on all stations/megaships involved should be blockaded by NPCs.

On the other hand, a station (or megaship) involved in a CG has all the interest to have their side win, so an active enforcement of clear landing pads should be in place at all times, especially during CGs. A ship should be removed (forcefully or otherwise) within a set amount of time, by the station authorities (or guns). The landing pad blocking should not even exist.

It would be nice, on the other hand, that there were more NPCs enforcing a blockade by means of interdictions, or attacks, slowing down those who take part in a CG: now, that would be something.

 

[zeta]

I am not unsympathetic to what you say, but you are asking that, since your preferred experience has some Richards spoiling it, then so should everyone else.

Incidentally, I find the whole thing of blocking one pad incredibly stupid and rather a result of poor implementation.

If NPCs had to block pads, by the same token, all pads, on all stations/megaships involved should be blockaded by NPCs.

On the other hand, a station (or megaship) involved in a CG has all the interest to have their side win, so an active enforcement of clear landing pads should be in place at all times, especially during CGs. A ship should be removed (forcefully or otherwise) within a set amount of time, by the station authorities (or guns). The landing pad blocking should not even exist.

It would be nice, on the other hand, that there were more NPCs enforcing a blockade by means of interdictions, or attacks, slowing down those who take part in a CG: now, that would be something.

My comment wasn't really about this particular case of blocking, but in general about the AI behavior reflecting player tendencies.

Most players play in solo, so if this was implemented, there would rarely if ever be a blockade and I would bet money that if this was implemented with reason, there wouldn't have been blockades in solo (simply in most open instance there was no blockade). But CG is a special case and if in nearly every instance in open there is a blockade then perhaps there should be a blockade in some of the solo instances.

As Ettanin noted above, this is not possible in general due to p2p if I understand correctly ? But could be done in CGs where fdev has more control of the instance ?

 

[Ettanin]

But could be done in CGs where fdev has more control of the instance ?

Neither. CG instances are also peer to peer.

 

[HRDiagram]

My comment wasn't really about this particular case of blocking, but in general about the AI behavior reflecting player tendencies.

Most players play in solo, so if this was implemented, there would rarely if ever be a blockade and I would bet money that if this was implemented with reason, there wouldn't have been blockades in solo (simply in most open instance there was no blockade). But CG is a special case and if in nearly every instance in open there is a blockade then perhaps there should be a blockade in some of the solo instances.

As Ettanin noted above, this is not possible in general due to p2p if I understand correctly ? But could be done in CGs where fdev has more control of the instance ?

Perhaps a better way of doing it would be an increased hostile NPC presence based on the status of the antagonist CG, not based on the actions of single individuals, but as a response to the involvement of the wider community.

 

[Jack Winter]

I'm relatively certain I've heard that loitering is a capital offence.. Would be nice if pad blockers in open got blown up!

An alternative would be that they are pulled into the hangar and the pad becomes free when another commander wants it. You could even give them a big monetary fine, I think that would take some of the fun out of pad blocking (though I'm not all that sure what fun pad blocking could possibly be)..

 

[Bottom Hat]

I feel it is in the spirit of ED's procedural generation and simulating parallel instances that locally (system wise) aggregated player behavior should be a baseline for the behavior of NPC's within the system (for or against player actions) - 'unpredictable AI' as you put it. I would give up my LEP for such a galaxy.

I also feel this should be doable after a tick, but during run-time ?

It would certainly be good to have unpredictable ai, but not so it mimics people doing type things of course lol!

I guess in other words, yes mimic or parody human pilot behavior for sure, but with the line drawn at daft things that people do because they are either ignorant (pad blocking) or are morons spoiling other people's games (also pad blocking).

Just thought I'd post this to clarify my earlier post, in case some other participants misunderstood me.

 

[Neilski]

Honestly I must say "yuck" to the concept of solo matching open in that fashion, by having the NPCs adjust their behaviour.

Do most people play in solo? Are there stats anywhere for solo vs open?

 

[zeta]

I am not unsympathetic to what you say, but you are asking that, since your preferred experience has some Richards spoiling it, then so should everyone else.

Incidentally, I find the whole thing of blocking one pad incredibly stupid and rather a result of poor implementation.

If NPCs had to block pads, by the same token, all pads, on all stations/megaships involved should be blockaded by NPCs.

On the other hand, a station (or megaship) involved in a CG has all the interest to have their side win, so an active enforcement of clear landing pads should be in place at all times, especially during CGs. A ship should be removed (forcefully or otherwise) within a set amount of time, by the station authorities (or guns). The landing pad blocking should not even exist.

It would be nice, on the other hand, that there were more NPCs enforcing a blockade by means of interdictions, or attacks, slowing down those who take part in a CG: now, that would be something.

I largely agree with what you said, except for the deterministic action of NPCs (in this case blocking or whatever), I would prefer a highly probabistic action.

 

[zeta]

It would certainly be good to have unpredictable ai, but not so it mimics people doing type things of course lol!

I guess in other words, yes mimic or parody human pilot behavior for sure, but with the line drawn at daft things that people do because they are either ignorant (pad blocking) or are morons spoiling other people's games (also pad blocking).

Just thought I'd post this to clarify my earlier post, in case some other participants misunderstood me.

I understand. I should not have used the word 'mimic', I take ED players as a representative subset of all humans in the ED galaxy, and their actions would stochastically determine NPC actions under 'well defined' circumstances.

Next time I just stick to thinking about it.

 

[Rubbernuke]

FD can design themselves out of this in various ways, but will they is another question entirely. I expect FD never really considered the problem fully.

 

[HRDiagram]

I largely agree with what you said, except for the deterministic action of NPCs (in this case blocking or whatever), I would prefer a highly probabistic action.

I like probabilistic better myself, in fact, however I think the outcome should be in response to the general trend, with a number of possible different behaviours branching out from it, without the influence that a limited group of malicious players might try to force by manipulating it.

FD can design themselves out of this in various ways, but will they is another question entirely. I expect FD never really considered the problem fully.

And perhaps never will

 

[Bottom Hat]

I understand. I should not have used the word 'mimic', I take ED players as a representative subset of all humans in the ED galaxy, and their actions would stochastically determine NPC actions under 'well defined' circumstances.

Next time I just stick to thinking about it.

No I don't disagree with your original point, I just wanted to say that if the ai was built to better imitate players, I think it best if bits were left out - like pad blocking, jamming the mail slot (which it's good at already!) and other things, but that the ai had far more variety. And I like your thinking of mimicking human activities, as it would give believability and credence to why things were happening.

In any case I imagine that more detailed ai behavior that drew parallels with player behavior would be a great thing. I just sadly feel it might be better left to a future iteration of it had to be chosen at development expense, but that's a personal opinion.

And this is a forum dude, don't not post your thoughts or ideas, no matter how daft they might sound - it's your right to post as is anyone else. Just expect some things to be contentious I guess, and there are some very angry people around here too. You'll get used to avoiding them!

 

[Northpin]

I expect FD never really considered the problem fully.

How come?
Pad blocked? Switch instance/mode, Block function. Plenty of solutions.

They designed the game to cater for everyone. Literally everyone.
If someone is playing the game in a self-inflicted PITA mode (iron man, open-only, etc), that doesn't mean FDev did something wrong

 

[Rubbernuke]

How come?
Pad blocked? Switch instance/mode, Block function. Plenty of solutions.

They designed the game to cater for everyone. Literally everyone.
If someone is playing the game in a self-inflicted PITA mode (iron man, open-only, etc), that doesn't mean FDev did something wrong

While mode switching works, its an ugly solution that requires you to log out and then in again. Blocking is also workmanlike, but at the same time inelegant because you have to again remove yourself from that instance.

that doesn't mean FDev did something wrong

They haven't done something wrong, its just they made the solutions clunky.

 

[Northpin]

While mode switching works, its an ugly solution that requires you to log out and then in again. Blocking is also workmanlike, but at the same time inelegant because you have to again remove yourself from that instance.


They haven't done something wrong, its just they made the solutions clunky.

I'd say the entire game is designed around the idea of small multiplayer instances and the MMO thing refers only to the galaxy/bgs in its entirety - tens of thousands of players affecting the galaxy, but not at the same time and not in the same instance.
And people should play accordingly.

A larger group of haulers, like Hutton Truckers, can clog in a status of a perma traffic jam even an Orbital station with its 9 Large Pads and 18 Mediums

But holding a Trade CG at a Megaship that has a Single Large Pad? It sure screams for playing in Solo/PG - at least from a hauler point of view.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'd say the entire game is designed around the idea of small multiplayer instances and the MMO thing refers only to the galaxy/bgs in its entirety - tens of thousands of players affecting the galaxy, but not at the same time and not in the same instance.
And people should play accordingly.

A larger group of haulers, like Hutton Truckers, can clog in a status of a perma traffic jam even an Orbital station with its 9 Large Pads and 18 Mediums

But holding a Trade CG at a Megaship that has a Single Large Pad? It sure screams for playing in Solo/PG - at least from a hauler point of view.

I'd say you are right to a point, until you scale to CGs or Powerplay then the system falls apart because then you focus people into restricted areas and times.

The issue is landing pads and docking, and by extension how they (stations) really remove danger from PvE.

But holding a Trade CG at a Megaship that has a Single Large Pad? It sure screams for playing in Solo/PG - at least from a hauler point of view.

It suggests more that each mode has downsides, and that in reality ED can't (as it stands) really develop complex situations easily due to these drawbacks.

Its ironic, because FD solved the issue and its already in the game- its just hardly seen.