Ramming!!

Space Fan

Banned
Whilst it is true a low skilled soldier can and has quite often taken out the enemy, they usually do it whilst losing their own life (and often those around them). On the other hand, a highly skilled soldier will take out multiple targets and live to fight another day, to take out more enemy.

Yes, that is the advantage of being a highly-trained soldier; who can doubt that?

But in, say, Napoleonic warfare, on the front rank of musketeers - their job is to fire the musket when ordered. Very little skill required, but they are achieving a military objective. Do others die through their incompetence - possibly. Does it matter militarily - not much.

Vessels still ram today - I've seen it done - and it can be deadly.
 
Yes, that is the advantage of being a highly-trained soldier; who can doubt that?

But in, say, Napoleonic warfare, on the front rank of musketeers - their job is to fire the musket when ordered. Very little skill required, but they are achieving a military objective. Do others die through their incompetence - possibly. Does it matter militarily - not much.

Vessels still ram today - I've seen it done - and it can be deadly.

Umm it did matter to those that died, but evidently that is a moot point!

Agreed, ramming can be deadly, I just don't think it is a skill nor an honourable way to fight, I still believe that those Commanders who use it lack the ability that someone who doesn't ram has.
 
Yep...my ship is fitted for COMBAT...if a ramming opportunity presents itself to me I use it. Especially effective to get that last ring down before the SCB can restore the opponents shield. And the SCB's are fine in my opinion as well. They do not make PvP broken or not fun. I have been doing pure PvP for the last month and have seen plenty of ships die (including mine) despite having a healthy supply of SCB's. What I like about them is they make the fights last longer than a couple minutes.
I like that you're suggesting that ramming isn't combat. And frankly I think shield cells are terrible - I'd rather have tougher ships overall than SCB, that would make fights much more interesting and last as long.
 

Space Fan

Banned
Umm it did matter to those that died, but evidently that is a moot point!

Agreed, ramming can be deadly, I just don't think it is a skill nor an honourable way to fight, I still believe that those Commanders who use it lack the ability that someone who doesn't ram has.

I'd like to agree. But the sole purpose is to defeat the enemy - not display personal skill, swagger or prowess. I come from a military perspective, which may sound harsh. Certainly an incompetent tactic which leads to loss of your own, or to the euphemistic 'collateral damage,' should be avoided. But if it kills the enemy, and it works, use it. The enemy will soon learn, and find a defence against it. (Unfortunately!)
 
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I'd like to agree. But the sole purpose is to defeat the enemy - not display personal skill, swagger or prowess. I come from a military perspective, which may sound harsh. Certainly an incompetent tactic which leads to loss of your own, or to the euphemistic 'collateral damage,' should be avoided. But if it kills the enemy, and it works, use it. The enemy will soon learn, and find a defence against it. (Unfortunately!)

Yep.. In a fight/war it is about winning. Pride and honor are for those that get buried. If I can fight less honorably and prevent being destroyed by someone that is trying to destroy me I am happy. (i am not condoning use of hacks or cheats. that is a different subject completely so, in advance, please do not try to compare them)
 
The game mechanics of ramming should be better.

If you are ramming a larger ship with better armor and shields you the rammer should die.

If the ships same size damage to both.

Or here is a fix. Say when coming close to another ship like within near touching shields unstable and dont work. From interference of the other ships mass or size. Plus mass having something to do with damage and reduction of damage.

Pretty soon it will just be people ramming each other instead of fighting.
 
I have to admit I don't care for SCBs either. I use them, but I wouldn't grieve if they left.

Shield Boosters, though I'm cool with - it's got a good tradeoff/benefit ratio and allows more customizing of a ship
 
Yep.. In a fight/war it is about winning. Pride and honor are for those that get buried.

Absolutely this.

My first PvP encounter involved me being interdicted and them rammed as I was turning to scan my opponent. I still consider it a daft thing to do but if the game makes it a winning strategy, of course it is 'legitimate',

However, I cannot believe it makes the game better. I hope that Frontier have it on their list of things to fix; if not I'll eventually go back to playing only in Solo, Which will shorten the life of the game for me.
 
I'd like to agree. But the sole purpose is to defeat the enemy - not display personal skill, swagger or prowess. I come from a military perspective, which may sound harsh. Certainly an incompetent tactic which leads to loss of your own, or to the euphemistic 'collateral damage,' should be avoided. But if it kills the enemy, and it works, use it. The enemy will soon learn, and find a defence against it. (Unfortunately!)

Funny I was speaking from a military perspective, I only recently hung up the uniform after 30 years service (RAAF). But you can't use military procedures here, this is a game with rules and restrictions. If this was real, everyone would be carrying nukes and stations would just be glowing puddles of molten slag.

Furthermore, I would not equate ramming as a military tactic. Yes it has been used by military forces in the past but normally by two groups: those individuals who know they are going to die and ram as a means of last support, and as a force multiplier by armies who have little regard for those doing the ramming (Kamikaze pilots for example, they really had little effect on the allied war effort, I think remembering that only 5% actually hit a target. In reality they would have been better off using those pilots and aircraft to attack in the conventional way, but I digress).

Regarding collateral damage, yes it is not only avoided, it is actually illegal under the Hague Rules of Conflict. Of course this only applies to those forces of the Western world but there are numerous military and civilian court cases for murder due to someone being trigger happy (or bomb happy) and causing civilian death. In fact Western air forces places what some consider very unrealistic pressures on pilots that they must visually identify the target and only commit weapon release if it is safe to do so, ie non-targets are not visible. On the other hand, insurgents and guerrilla warfare don't obey rules, that is why it is so hard for Western militaries to defeat them.
 
I have to admit I don't care for SCBs either. I use them, but I wouldn't grieve if they left.

Shield Boosters, though I'm cool with - it's got a good tradeoff/benefit ratio and allows more customizing of a ship


The issue I would have with them getting rid of SCB's is the flawed (IMO) module targetting system. It renders armor completely useless because it offers absolutely 0 added protection to ANY of the subsystems....which makes no sense. The only way to effectively protect your subsystems is to keep your shields up..and recently that seems to have somewhat changed as well.
 
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Space Fan

Banned
Funny I was speaking from a military perspective, I only recently hung up the uniform after 30 years service (RAAF). But you can't use military procedures here, this is a game with rules and restrictions. If this was real, everyone would be carrying nukes and stations would just be glowing puddles of molten slag.

Furthermore, I would not equate ramming as a military tactic. Yes it has been used by military forces in the past but normally by two groups: those individuals who know they are going to die and ram as a means of last support, and as a force multiplier by armies who have little regard for those doing the ramming (Kamikaze pilots for example, they really had little effect on the allied war effort, I think remembering that only 5% actually hit a target. In reality they would have been better off using those pilots and aircraft to attack in the conventional way, but I digress).

Regarding collateral damage, yes it is not only avoided, it is actually illegal under the Hague Rules of Conflict. Of course this only applies to those forces of the Western world but there are numerous military and civilian court cases for murder due to someone being trigger happy (or bomb happy) and causing civilian death. In fact Western air forces places what some consider very unrealistic pressures on pilots that they must visually identify the target and only commit weapon release if it is safe to do so, ie non-targets are not visible. On the other hand, insurgents and guerrilla warfare don't obey rules, that is why it is so hard for Western militaries to defeat them.

But there are no rules in game against ramming in these circumstances. And ramming *is* a military tactic - it doesn't even matter that it has been used since ancient Greece - if it kills the enemy, it is a military tactic. And of course there is no Hague or Geneva convention or International Law in Elite either - the slavery wouldn't be permitted!

I wouldn't normally class Kamikaze pilots as 'rammers' - ramming is understood to be a purely kinetic effect - not an explosive one.

And in one- to- one combat in Elite, there is effectively no risk of any collateral damage.

But I understand your points.
 
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It would be interesting for someone to get into a fight with another CMDR and loose his/her shields do to someone ramming them and submit an exploit ticket to the devs (preferably with video evidence) and see what kind of response they get. I would be really interested in what the devs would have to say.
 

Space Fan

Banned
It would be interesting for someone to get into a fight with another CMDR and loose his/her shields do to someone ramming them and submit an exploit ticket to the devs (preferably with video evidence) and see what kind of response they get. I would be really interested in what the devs would have to say.

All I would say is that, until ramming, *in combat*, is seen as some kind of exploit (which is unlikely) - let it continue. If it is within the rules, and it works, use it.
 
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Funny I was speaking from a military perspective, I only recently hung up the uniform after 30 years service (RAAF). But you can't use military procedures here, this is a game with rules and restrictions. If this was real, everyone would be carrying nukes and stations would just be glowing puddles of molten slag.

Furthermore, I would not equate ramming as a military tactic. Yes it has been used by military forces in the past but normally by two groups: those individuals who know they are going to die and ram as a means of last support, and as a force multiplier by armies who have little regard for those doing the ramming (Kamikaze pilots for example, they really had little effect on the allied war effort, I think remembering that only 5% actually hit a target. In reality they would have been better off using those pilots and aircraft to attack in the conventional way, but I digress).

Regarding collateral damage, yes it is not only avoided, it is actually illegal under the Hague Rules of Conflict. Of course this only applies to those forces of the Western world but there are numerous military and civilian court cases for murder due to someone being trigger happy (or bomb happy) and causing civilian death. In fact Western air forces places what some consider very unrealistic pressures on pilots that they must visually identify the target and only commit weapon release if it is safe to do so, ie non-targets are not visible. On the other hand, insurgents and guerrilla warfare don't obey rules, that is why it is so hard for Western militaries to defeat them.

Fellow vet, US Army 11b 1988-1997 - and somewhat amateur military historian. You have a number of inaccuracies of fact here (and 1 of opinion which I've noted below)

1. Opinion - If Elite-verse were real, tight controls for proliferation of WMDs may be in place ala real life. So it's an assumption only that every Elite pilot would have nukes. I concede I can't prove they wouldnt, but neither can you make convincing assumption they would

2. Fact - Japanese pilot kamikazes were not used as a force multiplier in the sense that more conventional means existed. At that point in the war just before the invasion of Okinawa, the last line of defense to the home islands as far as Japan was concerned, they had more available aircraft than veteran pilots so it wasnt a question of better use of aircraft, but simply lacking pilots beyond very young, very green rookies.

At start of WWIi (US entry), Japan had been in armed conflict for decades, spreading their 'Greater Asian Co-Prosperity' sphere - their pilots were skilled combat veterans with hundreds of hours of combat xp; by Okinawa they had mostly rookies with barely a few dozen hours in the cockpit much less any combat xp.

There were a few notable veterans who volunteered as kamikaze, but for most part the volunteers were green, rookie pilots. In the long term, yes it would have done Japan more good to conserve those pilots instead of kamikaze. But at the time, Japan felt there was no long term if in short term they did not succeed in holding Okinawa.

3. Hague convention and party of countries - you have the Hague and Geneva mixed up. The Hague is a party of countries with signatories agreeing to a unified and common imternational procedure for serving legal documents and enforcing those statutes within member parties.

The code of conduct for land warfare, military engagement, and treatment of prisoners is covered by the Geneva Comvention, not Hague. And some countries who are member parties of the Hague do not recognize the authority, or lack thereof, of the Hague judicial bench, most notably the United States.

4. Collateral damage via warfare is not illegal or restricted by the Geneva Convention, nor covered by any authority of the Hague treaties.

Intentional direct targeting of non-combatants are, but collateral damage is literally the recognized acceptance of side or collateral damage to civilians and other duly recognized non-combatant status belligerents in the line of attacking recognized military targets.

the issue as you've noted is that a) most western countries place far greater restrictions on ROE than standard Geneva convention re accidental collateral damage would allow, and b) society has forgotten that all warfare is a crime - it is simply the victors who determine who were the criminals and who were the just.

It's not just pilots with hands tied re: insane ROE - try being a grunt pinned down and shot at by 'children' in Somalia that ROE did not allow return fire. Which the warlords knew, and hence recruited even more 'children' into their ranks.

To circle back to ramming - it's a valid tactic and a contradiction at same time. Military dictum has always been
1. Win at all costs. Survivors can have luxury of feeling guilt afterwards. The dead / losing side feels nothing.

2. The side that projects more force with greater conservation of military power is usually the winner.

Ramming is essentially deciding which contradiction is more important at the time.
 
"WAS. It was a legitimate tactic before gun's and cannon's got more advanced after the age of sail."

"The Soviets, amongst others, will definitely disagree. Google 'taran' and have a read."


The Russians also machine-gunned their own people on the line to force them into the fight. Hard to justify a tactic based on a culture with little or no value in life.
Watching the Elite videos of the full-throttle rammers in dog fights was unsatisfying. I think it would be pleasing to me to learn to counter this effectively,
reducing the satisfaction level in this technique. Also, I think the general mentality of ramming historically was the tactic of last resort for most captains.
In some of the vids I watched, it was the only tactic.

In today's technology, if two countries went to battle in space, a ram would be a loss for both and avoided with every means possible. Even in modern air combat, a ram would more likely than not
result in the loss of both fighting platforms in one way or another. Ships at sea can and do ram on purpose and accidentally and often survive (one of our US presidents survived one.)
Although we call these game craft "ships" making them compatible to water vehicles, in reality, present spacecraft and even distant future space craft are more likely to suffer the risks of
aerial craft combined with the terminal vacuum element thousands or billions of miles from rescue. The more improbable a feature is, the less interesting it is to me because the immersion erodes.
I would not take this feature away, just for me personally, I expect better of myself. More finesse.
-Pv-
 
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It's the most satisfying way to kill another cmdr haha
Disagree. The most satisfying way is to take on someone with the same ship as you and win using the systems you have on board to full effect.

All things being equal, skill is the determining factor. Yeah, luck as well, but mostly skill.
 
Ok not done P.V.P for a very long time, so thought i would give it a go, whats with the ramming why does nobody want to pew pew, i have tried to have a few good dogfights in my F.D.L, but it seems as though no one wants to use lasers but just want to ram, whats that all about. Answers ?

You want to Pew Pew? Surely you'd prefer to Snu Snu ;-)

Seriously though, you could always use your thrusters to dodge out of the way, kick off the FA, turn and give them the business end of your weaponry!?
 
Game design also has a bearing on tactics. Like the gambling industry, casino owners know there is a tipping point for every person where losing is not an option regardless of the cost.
This is particularly acute in games (as opposed to the risk of loss of live in a real war- though wives and children have the ability and responsibility to apply reality checks.)
The goal is to entice the player to step over the line with marginal rewards. Eventually, they will cross over and do irrational things even for no reward.
There is a famous video of two people bidding against each other for a dollar bill even if it meant paying 10 times its value for the sake of claiming the win.

For the gamer, the tipping point may shift a bit from feature to feature, but one of those is the double investment whammy:
1) The time invested in the combat. "I got this far, no way I'm going to walk out of here without a definitive win." (whatever that is.) Attacking from a different direction is historical wisdom not taught any more.
2) The time invested in the ship. "No way these guys are going to take this away from me." (even if it's a few % of the original value.)

Then there's the player who invested huge clocks in acquiring defensive sink and weapons through non combat game features or only fought the AI, but now that they have them, are still learning game mechanics and piloting against other players near the same level of learning. "huh? What just happened?" while recording embarrassing videos of their learning curve.
Avoiding ramming just might be above their pay grade.

For the game developer it's a catch 22. Players are GOING TO RAM while learning. They'll stop playing if the learning curve costs too much.
For the mature player, it just gets silly to watch when envisioning standing off at a distance picking these guys off with little risk to yourself.
In the video referenced above, it looked like the recipients were not moving much so were unexpected obstacles in the path of a bee looking for any ray of light.
Making large ships as fast and nimble as small ships encourages ramming and so does playing against human opponents while learning the principles of combat.
I certainly would not post videos of my learning curve.

-Pv-
 
Meh, reverse the shield polarity so they bounce off and cause no damage, maybe even spin a player around like when you interdict.
Even against an un-shielded ship. Only allow ramming if both ships have no shields, that would be more like a last resort.
Even better, have a lateral thrust boost to avoid such shenanigans.

Grabs tin helmet, awaits the hate.
 
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