Rant: Frontier and closure of threads.

[Slawkenbergius]

I actually unlocked all of them within one hour-ish of buying the package, made the video the second hour, then realized that the package didn't include nearly what I thought it did. My total play time is less than three hours.

Firstly, what you paid for isn't necessarily supposed to match up with some perceived worth that's personal to you. You're supposed to be donating cash to make a project happen, and be pleased if you get some nice perks along the way. If you're incredibly lucky, the final product will be a tenth of your fevered imagination.

Secondly, alpha's not even finished. I spent a minimum of about 5 hours getting fairly good at the alpha. There's now a multiplayer section I'll spend at least few more hours on. And then at least two more alpha sections. And then two beta periods. And then the full release...

Take this as a learning experience that you don't know how to spend your money to make yourself happy and move on. You're the one that should learn from the experience. Don't make out that Frontier are the bad guys in your fiduciary mismanagement.

 

[Droolguy]

Nice rant.

What's the problem? In addition to failing at getting a refund, you also failed to indicate why you want that refund, what problems you encountered that make you want a discount, and demonstrate a distinct lack of business acumen in software marketing.

I'd assume if you are coming on the forums it's because you want some help in solving your issue, else in ranting here without focus you will really achieve nothing but having your threads locked, as you already experienced.

[/quote]

Sorry, I jumped the gun and assumed that people would look at my post history.

Assuming is what got me into this mess in the first place, and I will be the first to admit the mistake was originally mine because I was excited about the game.

So, basically I was led from the Kickstarter page through a link to the "new" online store on the premise that I believed the rewards to be the same for either.

The packages for both the Alpha level in the Kickstarter and the Alpha level on the new store were titled the same and cost the same and so I thought they were the same thing and purchased one.

I loaded up the game and played through twice (once to figure it out, and once to put a video on youtube to show the game off) and then wandered to the forums, after reading through the forums I realized that apparently I had missed the timeframe when the rewards were the same by less than a week.

I then proceeded to create a post warning other people about not making the same mistake (which got locked) and then I made another post to possibly change the alpha and beta package to something slightly more reasonable (which also go locked because people treated it as the same as the first post even when I requested several times that they not do that) so that I would not need to seek reimbursement because I thought the game would be worth the money if they just provided some kind of recognition to "new" store backers.

After that was locked I PM'ed support asking for a full refund (I was admittedly already upset at previous treatment) at first and then changed it to a partial refund after their company policies were explained to me.

Since then I have been told that they are unwilling to work with me at all despite requesting the refund extremely quickly and explaining that the purchases was made under false assumptions about package contents.

I have suggested several different ways to resolve the issue that I would be happy with and Frontier has so far not been willing to compromise at all, basically just feeding me their company policies over and over again to each one.

Now you should be caught up, the whole process has taken over a month because there was a claim filed with paypal over the issue, but paypal apparently does not handle claims for virtual or digital goods at all.

 

[CaptGrumpyPants]

Two things:

1) why on earth did you buy the alpha if not to support frontier? It's terrible value if you think of it as a purchase. I gave them about $2000 as a thank you for nearly 30 years' worth of good times and for getting me where I am today, hunting black holes for nasa

2) I hope you realize that we've only seen a small part of the alpha! Much more is to come

It's not ours to question the OPs thought process or motivations, or at least it shouldn't be. I've contributed gladly, and quite beyond what others that have expressed copious amounts of 'entitlement' have been willing to and I did so without complaint when they got more for less than I did. If they OP feels the way he does he is entitled to do so and entitled to express that belief. I don't think we can require him to express it the way we want him to do it or diminish his opinion because we do not share it.

I cannot disagree with the second, though-- There is MUCH more to come in the Alpha!!

 

[Shishakli]

I would hope an enlightened society would not seek to crucify him for it.

<Not required>

It's not ours to question the OPs thought process or motivations, or at least it shouldn't be.

snip

If they OP feels the way he does he is entitled to do so and entitled to express that belief.

By that logic... if others feel he's being a spoilt child, are they not also entitled to express that belief?

 

[CaptGrumpyPants]

So you're asking other posters to act more maturely than op?

OK Mum

To all-- yes, I am asking everyone to be mature and discuss the topic as if we are reasonable (and reasonably intelligent) people. If the excuse is that one poster was immature so that justifies our being immature then it is time to consider that not posting at all is a better contribution than posting immature and non-productive responses.

Thank you

 

[Droolguy]

Firstly, what you paid for isn't necessarily supposed to match up with some perceived worth that's personal to you. You're supposed to be donating cash to make a project happen, and be pleased if you get some nice perks along the way. If you're incredibly lucky, the final product will be a tenth of your fevered imagination.

Secondly, alpha's not even finished. I spent a minimum of about 5 hours getting fairly good at the alpha. There's now a multiplayer section I'll spend at least few more hours on. And then at least two more alpha sections. And then two beta periods. And then the full release...

Take this as a learning experience that you don't know how to spend your money to make yourself happy and move on. You're the one that should learn from the experience. Don't make out that Frontier are the bad guys in your fiduciary mismanagement.

1. You are purchasing a product, not donating.

2. The fact that Alpha is not finished is exactly why they not offering at least a partial refund for the package so ridiculous, I get the fact that I played the alpha... I can eat that and chalk it up to over exuberance on my part, why can't I be refunded the beta, expansions, and release game portion of the funds?

None of them have even been released yet so obviously I haven't had the chance to use them, I barely even played the first release alpha.

The policy by the way is that any digital property bought from Frontier and used in any capacity is ineligible for any refund, basically making none of their products refundable once played.

This makes sense for full release games due to piracy, it does NOT make sense for pre-release and pre-order packages because you do not have any risk of someone stealing your product since it hasn't even been made yet.

This goes doubly for something with no NDA that they encourage you share with people.

3. Believe me the learning experience has been made.

 

[Alien]

1) Others have complained about pricing until pricing was altered to make them happy... These same folk then berated others for complaining about pricing and told them they were acting 'entitled'.

That's my bad. I am sorry.
In my defence, I didn't have the money to spare to upgrade to Alpha all this time since the Kickstarter. I was happy with First Round / Premium Beta. Then I had the money to spare and Frontier offered the upgrade. I could have upgraded for £100, but I didn't think that was fair to us Founders, so yes, I complained about it in the appropriate thread.

Then I get Alpha forum access and I see people literally saying "I want information from Frontier" While I could agree with them thinking Frontier should have said something, it was the "I want" I didn't like, and said so.

Not so, I believe in KS they were guaranteed only a month of advance access. Which they have had and more.

As has been said elsewhere, these were estimates. Nothing is set in stone (even the name Elite: Dangerous wasn't set in stone when I asked David Braben on Reddit, but it probably is by now).

I would like to see those who I might use the term "entitled" on, to take a zero expectation approach towards Frontier more. For example, I have no expectation as to when Beta will start. It could be the first week in March or the first week in September, I don't mind (and not just because I now have the Alpha). Frontier will take their time to make the best game possible, and considering we have waited 20 years for this game, waiting a little longer is OK with me.

Frontier owe me nothing. They didn't even have to let me upgrade to Alpha for £50, that they have is a bonus.

 

[Steve O B Have]

There is absolutely no reason why you can't voice your opinions in a reasoned manner. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Read your post, consider if it's going to be seen as baiting and if so, change it before we change it for you and hand out infractions.

 

[Alien]

1. You are purchasing a product, not donating.

You are backing development of a game not pre-ordering it.
The fact they are including all future versions of that game for the money you backed, is the incentive to convince you to back the game.

 

[CaptGrumpyPants]

That's my bad. I am sorry.
In my defence, I didn't have the money to spare to upgrade to Alpha all this time since the Kickstarter.

No worries, mate. I'm not harboring any resentment to anyone You are OK in my book!

 

[KickahasTier]

why can't I be refunded the beta, expansions, and release game portion of the funds?

None of them have even been released yet so obviously I haven't had the chance to use them, I barely even played the first release alpha.

This makes a lot of sense. If I was FD the last thing I would want is a disgruntled customer, period.

 

[Droolguy]

Backing the development of the game is not donating, you are in essence doing exactly what a bank does by giving companies funds to develop products.

You are investing in a service, your are not donating for them to make the game, you are investing in them making the game.

There is a BIG difference between the two.

Normally, the investment is justified by recognition on some level inside the finished product.

That is what is currently missing.

Also if you look at the store it says in big bold letters under every single package that it is a preorder.

Not reading things is what got me into this mess, don't make the same mistakes.

 

[Asp Explorer]

What happens when you fill up the fuel tank in a vehicle with Super Octane Wonder Fuel?

You suddenly then decide you don't want the Ordinary Boring Normal Go-Go Juice it's all been mixed up with.

How would you reasonably expect to return the stuff you don't want, be refunded for it, and keep the bit you wanted? Companies bundle stuff all the time, sometimes there isn't a way of cleanly separating them, and in any case you have already "used" the product before you've even switched on the ignition.

 

[FS3DPete]

What happens when you fill up the fuel tank in a vehicle with Super Octane Wonder Fuel?

You suddenly then decide you don't want the Ordinary Boring Normal Go-Go Juice it's all been mixed up with.

How would you reasonably expect to return the stuff you don't want, be refunded for it, and keep the bit you wanted? Companies bundle stuff all the time, sometimes there isn't a way of cleanly separating them, and in any case you have already "used" the product before you've even switched on the ignition.

I have no idea why people don't get this point. While it might not be analogous to software purchasing, the terms have already been laid out on the site. I could not afford the Alpha (and still can't) so didn't buy in.

To those complainers (unless I'm already on your ignore list e.g. CaptGrumpyPants) take heed. No-one is denying you the right to complain and express your concerns. However... when you make inflammatory comments and draw completely unwarranted conclusions, that is both unproductive and irritating to those of us who think it's rather childish to make claims of entitlement on a product that you couldn't be bothered to look at the conditions of purchase for.

Complaining to Frontier is one thing. Slating them publicly is another.

Trying to bait the moderators is yet another, and something most people (I would hope) take a dim view on.

However you might feel, if you see a need to make a public statement of your dissatisfaction and how X Y or Z entity is not being fair (because they have not carried out your demands), then either keep it to yourself, or expect those of us who think you are being unreasonable to tell you so.

Free speech works both ways, after all.

 

[Brett C]

Hi all,

While I am not going to close this discussion topic; as we haven't lept over the point of no return, as so to say. I just wanted to note that we try our best to let topics go as long as possible, before having to close the discussion down. This is without the limitations of a discussion becoming personal, insulting or demeaning to other people or groups.

Discussion topics are closed down mainly on the aforementioned basis. We do love to see opinions expressed, we love seeing constructive debates. We don't like seeing debates and opinions that are any of the following; Straw manning, weasel words, red herring, blatant disruption of an ongoing debate or discussion. As those types of discussions end up in a total flame war or people trolling one another just to bait them onward.

We as moderators cannot give proper technical support on these boards unlike the people from Frontier. It's not that we are not allowed to help out and provide support; it's more so the fact that we are not trained nor have the tools to sort out issues on a case by case basis. We can direct people to contact Frontier support to resolve issues as needed, however that avenue is utilized if we (the moderation team) know that a discussion topic on these boards will become problematic as shown by previous discussions. Otherwise, we will be very passive of such discussions.

As a reminder, our forum rules and guidelines can be found here: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=42263&postcount=1
If you come across a post that is violating any one or more of such rules, please do click the

icon at the top right of a post, fill out the text box of the rule violation and any other information and continue onward. Please allow us moderators to deal with it.

 

[Droolguy]

I may be missing something but that analogy doesn't seem to fit the situation.

The vast majority of the product hasn't even been produced yet, so how could it already be "in my tank"?

Also, I would like to take the time to thank everyone for actually being constructive for the most part.

I realize that my posts can come off harsh but I am a very direct person (Read: Lacking in tact.) *most* are made with no ill will behind them but still anger people and start fights without actually intending to at all.

I also would like to thank the moderators for not locking this thread, I am very pleasantly surprised so far.

 

[Styggron]

I also would like to thank the moderators for not locking this thread, I am very pleasantly surprised so far.

We have been watching this thread very carefully. This is clearly something you feel EXTREMELY strongly about and we ALL want to work toward a viable solutions for all parties.

 

[Steve O B Have]

Quite - as Brett said, the other threads were not locked because of the nature of the complaints but for the content and delivery of the debate. Keep it reasonable and constructive and we have no reason to close the threads.

 

[Mazhurg]

Glad you enjoy what you have seen of Alpha so far.

Now,

Assuming is what got me into this mess in the first place, and I will be the first to admit the mistake was originally mine because I was excited about the game.

I've made many mistake using this method.

So, basically I was led from the Kickstarter page through a link to the "new" online store on the premise that I believed the rewards to be the same for either.

Agreed, the Kickstarter page does not indicate that supporting the game would be any different going to the website; however, as the KS project had ended quite a few months back it is not unusual for local procedures (in this case the store) to change.

The packages for both the Alpha level in the Kickstarter and the Alpha level on the new store were titled the same and cost the same and so I thought they were the same thing and purchased one.

However, (at least under the current page) it is clearly indicated as of the second paragraph of the Alpha description as to what you get. Other than access, (Alpha / Beta), the game and expansions there is no mention at all of Kickstarter rewards, other than the old backer app FAQ link for the previous KS backers. Perhaps Frontier should specifically place a warning that there is no Kickstarter rewards available on the site? I think this would be redundant IMHO.

I loaded up the game and played through twice (once to figure it out, and once to put a video on youtube to show the game off) and then wandered to the forums, after reading through the forums I realized that apparently I had missed the timeframe when the rewards were the same by less than a week.

Here is where that previous "assume" word came in and bit you here...

I then proceeded to create a post warning other people about not making the same mistake (which got locked)

I did look at the post, and it got locked as it turned nasty and ran it's course, not because the Mod singled your posts.

and then I made another post to possibly change the alpha and beta package to something slightly more reasonable (which also go locked because people treated it as the same as the first post even when I requested several times that they not do that) so that I would not need to seek reimbursement because I thought the game would be worth the money if they just provided some kind of recognition to "new" store backers.

You forced the hands of the mod on the second post.

After that was locked I PM'ed support asking for a full refund (I was admittedly already upset at previous treatment) at first and then changed it to a partial refund after their company policies were explained to me.

Since then I have been told that they are unwilling to work with me at all despite requesting the refund extremely quickly and explaining that the purchases was made under false assumptions about package contents.

However, and unfortunately, they are your false assumptions as Frontier is clear on the store page as to what is included.

I have suggested several different ways to resolve the issue that I would be happy with and Frontier has so far not been willing to compromise at all, basically just feeding me their company policies over and over again to each one.

Now you should be caught up, the whole process has taken over a month because there was a claim filed with paypal over the issue, but paypal apparently does not handle claims for virtual or digital goods at all.

Sometimes the only solutions from those 6 letters (Assume) is to learn from them and grin and bear it.

The KS process and rewards for just about every projects thatI have seen and supported always include extra for the backers brave enough (or foolish as some projects don't make it) willingly promote a product or company. If nothing changed after the period, then what would be the incentive in many cases to support? Once a project is funded, the level of risk for those that come later is much reduced and the same incentives don't need to apply. Does it makes KS special? Well, it does to some extent and I dare say that's life.

No hard feeling, and I hope you can eventually make peace with FD.

- Oh, I can almost guarantee that thsi thread will end up being locked too. .... I see that I've been ninjaed by the mods and proven wrong... good!

 

[Droolguy]

The KS process and rewards for just about every projects thatI have seen and supported always include extra for the backers brave enough (or foolish as some projects don't make it) willingly promote a product or company. If nothing changed after the period, then what would be the incentive in many cases to support? Once a project is funded, the level of risk for those that come later is much reduced and the same incentives don't need to apply. Does it makes KS special? Well, it does to some extent and I dare say that's life.

Which is why I agree that the Kickstarters should have slightly better rewards, however I don't believe that it was so much greater though that the Kickstarter backers should get a landslide of benefits and the new "backers" get nothing at all.

There is still a very high level of risk in investing in this game since historically games made by very large game houses do not fail in development, they fail shortly after they release (if they are going to fail at all).

So even if someone was to buy into the game now, they would still share a very large portion of the total risk with you, just not all of it.

I have to get off for now though because someone needs to sleep in the room I have my computer in.

Hopefully the thread survives the night and we can continue this discussion in the morning.

Thank you everyone for your input.