Rant: Frontier and closure of threads.
- Thread starter Droolguy
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the elite kickstarter page has that OR if you log into the original backers login.
Hope that helps.
droolguy,
that is a nice rant op and through the course of the thread even resembles something like an argument.
just to add my position. any purchase should be made only after all of its terms & conditions have been understood and considered.
but obviously the consumer decision journey can be a long or a very short one
i mostly buy ad hoc, and even high value purchases are done on a gut feeling and without understanding all its implications.
for that reason i would never even think of a refund. to help if wanted i have sent you a pm
that is a nice rant op and through the course of the thread even resembles something like an argument.
just to add my position. any purchase should be made only after all of its terms & conditions have been understood and considered.
but obviously the consumer decision journey can be a long or a very short one
i mostly buy ad hoc, and even high value purchases are done on a gut feeling and without understanding all its implications.
for that reason i would never even think of a refund. to help if wanted i have sent you a pm
Michael Brookes
Game Director
We never close threads because they are critical of us, search the forum and you'll find many such threads (although thankfully not too many!). As long as no-one is breaking the forum rules we are happy for people to discuss whatever they want in the appropriate parts of the forum.
Michael
Michael
In the same way someone may refer to another as an 'Apple fanboi' because they themselves prefer non-Apple products... it's not a friendly term
exactly.
If you backed prior to the store opening Alpha was 200 quid including a bunch of rewards. If you backed afterwards still 200 with no rewards. A few weeks after the store opened FD introduced an upgrade path to Alpha that still topped out at 200 and depending on where you came from you retained the rewards you already had.
At each point it was clear what you were getting for the price.
Its like buying breakfast cereal sometimes you get extra rewards inside the packet sometimes you dont and the price varies over time.
The point is you read the paperwork and make a decision based on what you can afford at the point in time and whether you thought it was worth the money, 7 full price games in fact.
Having played it, it isn't what you thought it would be and you want your money back.
I bet every backer has bought a game, thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and then realised within a few minutes of playing it wasn't what they thought and never played it again.
Its that old phrase caveat emptor - let the buyer beware.
I am sorry you dont like it. As a "fanboy" or more appropriately a fan old boy and a working man who couldn't afford the Alpha I envy you for the privilege you have of being able to play the Alpha. I am sure there are many on this forum who would echo that.
At each point it was clear what you were getting for the price.
Its like buying breakfast cereal sometimes you get extra rewards inside the packet sometimes you dont and the price varies over time.
The point is you read the paperwork and make a decision based on what you can afford at the point in time and whether you thought it was worth the money, 7 full price games in fact.
Having played it, it isn't what you thought it would be and you want your money back.
I bet every backer has bought a game, thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and then realised within a few minutes of playing it wasn't what they thought and never played it again.
Its that old phrase caveat emptor - let the buyer beware.
I am sorry you dont like it. As a "fanboy" or more appropriately a fan old boy and a working man who couldn't afford the Alpha I envy you for the privilege you have of being able to play the Alpha. I am sure there are many on this forum who would echo that.
@droolguy
I understand some of what your saying but kickstarter is an investment your not buying a product your investing in it, there are loads of examples on the net about this just google it you will see, negative posts on any company forum gets shut down pretty quick I have been on, I can see what FD are trying to do by getting you to talk to them privately to resolve the matter, that is very good customer support in my opinion you don't need to involve everyone else because the matter is between you and them, telling people not to buy the alpha well that is very immature of you and you really should edit the post and remove that part, just because your not having a great time on the alpha you should not tell people to not buy the alpha beta its only your opinion.
I personally cant wait for the game but I wont pay anymore money because I am a tight ass haha, I also get my elite fix from all the alpha backers and youtube videos nd also the dev diaries.
Keep up the good work FD
I understand some of what your saying but kickstarter is an investment your not buying a product your investing in it, there are loads of examples on the net about this just google it you will see, negative posts on any company forum gets shut down pretty quick I have been on, I can see what FD are trying to do by getting you to talk to them privately to resolve the matter, that is very good customer support in my opinion you don't need to involve everyone else because the matter is between you and them, telling people not to buy the alpha well that is very immature of you and you really should edit the post and remove that part, just because your not having a great time on the alpha you should not tell people to not buy the alpha beta its only your opinion.
I personally cant wait for the game but I wont pay anymore money because I am a tight ass haha, I also get my elite fix from all the alpha backers and youtube videos nd also the dev diaries.
Keep up the good work FD
I can empathize with the OP here a little and can't really disagree. I do see how the argument can be made that he expressed his discontent 'improperly'. That said, it's his discontent, who are we to tell him how we expect him to express it? I take no offense at anything he has said, he has been honest about his thoughts and feelings and I would hope an enlightened society would not seek to crucify him for it. After all, it's not like he brought a Power Rangers laser pistol toy on the bus in his backpack-- we all know that is a traumatic and unforgivable offense.
I can empathize with the OP for a few reasons which I will try to state in a way that doesn't prompt everyone to send the Inquisition after me
That is all. I apologize if my rhetoric offended anyone as that was not my intent at all. I appreciate each and everyone one of my fellow forum members-- whether or not I agree with you
I understand your point, and I do empathise with the multi amount backing... I may have paid a lot more than someone else in alpha, and yourself.. or I may have paid a lot less. But the key point is I paid what I wanted and could towards the game.
Its like booking a holiday or bus/train ticket... the price can range drastically.. depending on where you go, when you book it how you book it.
At the end of the day sitting on a bus or on your way to the holiday the person sitting next to you may have paid double what you did or less than half... but you are going to get what you paid for.
Digital products are a newish beastie, and refund policy and consumer rights are a little behind the times for them. As the transaction is complete at point of successful download a opposed to installation. I ran a digital product shop for a while and I have to say that where a grievance was well directed and seemed above board I would refund the customer out of goodwill.. in the hope they would return...
With regards to the OP the only issues I disagree with is
1. not all negative posts get taken down or closed..
2. Buy Alpha gets you Alpha, Premium Beta, Beta, Gamma and the full game. I don't know if it includes a boxed edition or not.
It doesn't promise anything else and hasn't yet.. so I don't see it being sold incorrectly or with any degree of dishonesty or misleading.
I do feel for the OP about his feelings of disappointment, I also feel for frontier who are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
I hope that should the OP feel suitably 'misled' they would contact their bank for advice.
There is only one product to purchase - Eliteangerous
How much a purchaser pays determines the time they first gain access to that product. For E, there is the option of Alpha, Beta1, Beta2, Gamma, or Release.
The Alpha purchaser pays £200 for Alpha access, which by it's nature includes all later stages.
Once the purchaser has accessed the game during Alpha, regardless of it's state at the time, the purchase is complete. Whether the purchaser decides to never access the game again is essentially irrelevant.
The Alpha stage is meant to test the game for bugs (in this case as a series of modules). It shouldn't be assumed to be a finished product anyway. Remember we're only at Alpha v1.1, with v2.0 (multi-player) on it's way.
Purchasing Alpha access is not about getting early access to an finished product, it's about getting access to that same product much earlier in the development process, whilst giving some level of feedback/input into that process.
angerousHow much a purchaser pays determines the time they first gain access to that product. For E
, there is the option of Alpha, Beta1, Beta2, Gamma, or Release.The Alpha purchaser pays £200 for Alpha access, which by it's nature includes all later stages.
Once the purchaser has accessed the game during Alpha, regardless of it's state at the time, the purchase is complete. Whether the purchaser decides to never access the game again is essentially irrelevant.
The Alpha stage is meant to test the game for bugs (in this case as a series of modules). It shouldn't be assumed to be a finished product anyway. Remember we're only at Alpha v1.1, with v2.0 (multi-player) on it's way.
Purchasing Alpha access is not about getting early access to an finished product, it's about getting access to that same product much earlier in the development process, whilst giving some level of feedback/input into that process.
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Although anyone can close a thread maliciously by breaking the rules and spoiling the OP thread even if the OP kept it clean. That's how I lost my PS4 Elite thread. Which was extremely popular.
I think it's valuable to know that FD do not offer a refund if the product has been used and that is their policy.
However, I do not think it's fair to say that FD do not offer after sales service, when they do. It seems what was really meant was that the OP didn't like the result of the after sales service.
It reminds me of my time in retail, when people accused me of being rude merely because I had told them they couldn't do what they had wanted to.
However, I do not think it's fair to say that FD do not offer after sales service, when they do. It seems what was really meant was that the OP didn't like the result of the after sales service.
It reminds me of my time in retail, when people accused me of being rude merely because I had told them they couldn't do what they had wanted to.
Yep, I've only ever seen threads closed when the community behaviour gets a bit out of hand - never because the content is critical of FD. In fact, I'd say that the moderation on these forums is great - not overly heavy-handed, but not afraid to take action when needed - I think this is great, and in fact, deters the trolls.
I agree P4UL; There really isn't much that can be done at this stage. And I would not buy the Alpha at these prices. Of course I understand the need for the backers high tiered expense to make this game a reality.
Yaffle
Volunteer Moderator
In this case it would seem that you have, roughly, a contract with FD. In consideration you have paid £200 (or whatever) and FD have agreed to do certain things in return.
The first of those was to give you access to the game at a very early stage of development, to test it and to help shape the way the game would look. There are no guarantees your opinions WILL shape the game, but they are likely to be read and considered in the context of the wider testing reports. I am sure that if you had found you could fly through asteroids then you would have a direct effect on the game, such a bug would have to be corrected. Debates about the flight model are subjective, and ultimately the choice of the designer.
That is the purpose of an alpha, you have not paid for a finished product, you have paid to gain access before others. Sure in many development cycles a publisher would have trusted (possibly paid) testers. Here as well as that the early code has been offered to the community in return for a payment. It matters not if the alpha “isn’t what you were expecting” or “not of merchantable quality” (the latter is, by definition, not going to the case) you paid for access to the alpha build, you have been granted such access.
When the alpha phase finishes they have agreed to give you a more-developed and complete version of the code ahead of release as a “beta” after that a “gamma” and finally the full game and any upgrades. These are things that “come along” with the alpha access, together with input to the alpha form and, dependent on pledge level the Design Discussion Forum as well. You knew this before you purchased, or if you did not, you should have done from either reading the website, or asking here. By way of analogy you have ordered the most expensive dish on the menu in a restaurant and discovered that you don't actually like caviare, so you want to return what you have not eaten and get the money back for what is left on your plate. I would imagine that Gordon Ramsay, for example, would be fairly unimpressed if you were to try that. You ordered a meal, he supplied you with that meal as advertised.
If you did not know what an alpha was, then really you should have asked first.
So far you have stuck to your side, handing over £200 (or whatever) and they have stuck to theirs, giving you access to the early and incomplete version of the game. Now you want out because you feel you’ve made a bad bargain. FD has not reason to refund you that I can tell. I am sorry for you that you feel you have made a bad bargain, but as another said the principle of caveat emptor applies here. If FD wish to make some form of goodwill gesture, that it at the discretion of FD, as it stands you have no recourse that I can see.
In short; I am unsure what the problem is here.
The first of those was to give you access to the game at a very early stage of development, to test it and to help shape the way the game would look. There are no guarantees your opinions WILL shape the game, but they are likely to be read and considered in the context of the wider testing reports. I am sure that if you had found you could fly through asteroids then you would have a direct effect on the game, such a bug would have to be corrected. Debates about the flight model are subjective, and ultimately the choice of the designer.
That is the purpose of an alpha, you have not paid for a finished product, you have paid to gain access before others. Sure in many development cycles a publisher would have trusted (possibly paid) testers. Here as well as that the early code has been offered to the community in return for a payment. It matters not if the alpha “isn’t what you were expecting” or “not of merchantable quality” (the latter is, by definition, not going to the case) you paid for access to the alpha build, you have been granted such access.
When the alpha phase finishes they have agreed to give you a more-developed and complete version of the code ahead of release as a “beta” after that a “gamma” and finally the full game and any upgrades. These are things that “come along” with the alpha access, together with input to the alpha form and, dependent on pledge level the Design Discussion Forum as well. You knew this before you purchased, or if you did not, you should have done from either reading the website, or asking here. By way of analogy you have ordered the most expensive dish on the menu in a restaurant and discovered that you don't actually like caviare, so you want to return what you have not eaten and get the money back for what is left on your plate. I would imagine that Gordon Ramsay, for example, would be fairly unimpressed if you were to try that. You ordered a meal, he supplied you with that meal as advertised.
If you did not know what an alpha was, then really you should have asked first.
So far you have stuck to your side, handing over £200 (or whatever) and they have stuck to theirs, giving you access to the early and incomplete version of the game. Now you want out because you feel you’ve made a bad bargain. FD has not reason to refund you that I can tell. I am sorry for you that you feel you have made a bad bargain, but as another said the principle of caveat emptor applies here. If FD wish to make some form of goodwill gesture, that it at the discretion of FD, as it stands you have no recourse that I can see.
In short; I am unsure what the problem is here.
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Yes, that is in essence the contract Slawkenbergius. The results will be personal; favorable or unfavorable. Secondly, the point made about Alpha's not being finished is well made.
This is one of those paying for alpha access things that comes up on just about every alpha access programme out there.
It's such a new idea that everyone, customers and game companies alike, are still feeling their way around all the implications and responsibilities. It hurts when it doesn't work out for either party but we're all breaking new ground here and the risks are still high.
I can see the OP's issue, having paid for something different to what he got, and I can understand Frontier's stance too in not wanting to set a precedent that can (and will) be exploited.
In the end it comes down to caveat emptor. Maybe that'll change eventually once all the kinks have been shaken out of these alpha access things, but as harsh as it can seem that's how it is at the moment.
It's such a new idea that everyone, customers and game companies alike, are still feeling their way around all the implications and responsibilities. It hurts when it doesn't work out for either party but we're all breaking new ground here and the risks are still high.
I can see the OP's issue, having paid for something different to what he got, and I can understand Frontier's stance too in not wanting to set a precedent that can (and will) be exploited.
In the end it comes down to caveat emptor. Maybe that'll change eventually once all the kinks have been shaken out of these alpha access things, but as harsh as it can seem that's how it is at the moment.
What good is that ample warning for those who come to the project now? The OP saw the project's Kickstarter page, came to the store from there assuming the same thing was being sold, purchased and realised after it wasn't what he thought he was buying. Most stores allow refunds for this sort of situation. Online purchases in the UK are legally bound to offer full refunds (though there are caveats with digital goods, but in this instance it would be easy to remove the player's alpha access and refund him.) I think what he's asking for is perfectly reasonable.
People seem to be forgetting this isn't Kickstarter any more. It's Frontier's storefront, it's a shop that people are buying products from. They're not doing it to back the game, they're engaging in a regular shop transaction. If they have a complaint about that they don't deserve the sort of brigading and flaming as has happened in this thread.
And shame on all of those derailing the topic to try and get it locked.
And there is your main misunderstanding, this is an "alpha test" right? Is was never about "play time" as you put it there. It is a pretest, a part of the game, not the game. The fact that you feel the £200 is not money well spent at this point is your own fault. You should have done your research more, the alphas been out of a while. You should have backed less and/or waited to beta or full release. More so, if you weren't prepared to sit through the games "production steps", alpha, beta, gamma and then full release why were you even touching the "backing" purchase button?
If you come on the forums and whine like you've been doing, what else do you expect than your threads to be closed? Why should FD allow you make nonsensical gripes based on false logic? I'll say again, you signed up for a "alpha test". Learn a bit of patience and stop whining about it. Lastly, maybe you should actually "think" about where you put your money and what you back whilst in development, more so if you can't really afford it. Backing the game was never about "value for money for alpha test game play time".
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