Rant: Frontier and closure of threads.
- Thread starter Droolguy
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I think conspiracy was the wrong word I used... I mean they're not working to any agenda... don't know where conspiracy came from.. maybe its my conspiracy to get conspiracy into the forums as much as possible.. that would be some conspiracy wouldn't it?
Still I agree that the mods do a good job under some pretty tough conditions..
Just because I disagree doesn't make me right!
Please keep posts to this thread on topic Dead Fred.
I think conspiracy was the wrong word I used... I mean they're not working to any agenda... don't know where conspiracy came from.. maybe its my conspiracy to get conspiracy into the forums as much as possible.. that would be some conspiracy wouldn't it?
Still I agree that the mods do a good job under some pretty tough conditions..
Just because I disagree doesn't make me right!
try substituting "conspiracy" for "illuminati" (if illu hasn't copyrighted the word by now)
Then substitute "illuminati" for "banana", then "banana" for "onesie" and everything will be alright again
Tough conditions? Yeah, it's like being forced to work in a salt mine or something!
They're volunteers - they choose to do it, there is no requirement to do so so I assume they enjoy it or find it gratifying somehow.I agree there isn't any conspiracy, or agenda of course. The mods are just people and most people are here because they loved the old games and are excited about the new one. As such, and as can be seen on most threads where there is a complaint, regular users (who have a generally positive attitude about the game and company) will dive in to support the game/company. The mods are those people too, just they happen to be mods - so, humans being humans it's almost impossible for them to be entirely aloof and without opinion or allegiance in these things.
I could dig up a thousand threads, not featuring complaints, that went off topic, that went on and on, that weren't closed, if you'd like?!
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Tough conditions? Yeah, it's like being forced to work in a salt mine or something!
I could dig up a thousand threads, not featuring complaints, that went off topic, that went on and on, that weren't closed, if you'd like?!
The difficult conditions I refer to are the SHEER amount of posts that pop up here regularly like when Alpha hit...
You want to show me examples of off topic conversations? I was probably involved in some of them.. and I wasn't disputing that at all.
Anyway have a cracking day, I am off now to cook with son for a home economic project...
So I'll be back later on (mouldy chocolate <- thats OFF topic)
Anyway I think I just wanted to acknowledge that the mods do a difficult job here, and deserve a little bit of slack... and yes I also firmly and totally agree that feedback for them should be available to help them. But lets not beat them down till they give up... Otherwise we may end up being mod'd by the likes of ME...
I could dig up a thousand threads, not featuring complaints, that went off topic, that went on and on, that weren't closed, if you'd like?!
Maybe they wandered off topic in a fun, interesting or otherwise productive way, causing the mods to use good judgement in leaving them alone
"Complaint" threads do seem prone to going around in circles...
I think a subscription to a serialisation might be a better example. I'm releasing several books, only one of which is out yet. You purchase the whole sequence and say "sorry, I bought the wrong thing, can I have a partial refund and stop receiving the updates?" I'd say sure to that - it's good customer service, after all. Most places offer refunds without question these days as it's better for company image.
For the ebook example, you can do that already. Buy an ebook and tell Amazon after that you don't want it - they'll refund you immediately and without question. For physical goods they're legally required to give you a refund within 30 days of sale.
This is not abnormal.
It is always good to have good customer service as Darren suggests
The best thing I loved about being self employed was being able to ignore the red tape of policies, and do what I felt was the right thing to do.
A happy non customer doesn't bad mouth your business infact its possible they will be positive about you. I always try to resolve the issue and a refund is the best way in some cases to resolve it.
However the examples you've given are great examples...
I would be quite disgruntled if I paid £200 for alpha, to then be offered at a reduced rate... and then again further reduced rate.
I'd be right to be disgruntled and good customer care would say "here you go, the equivalent to the offer - either partial refund OR credits to spend on other things (merch in shop when it comes)"
Thats is how I would do it... but lets be clear.. this is not a legal requirement.. most digital sites will state "no refunds on downloads once downloaded"... we did that to.. its to avoid people abusing the system... and allows you to bend the rules when the situation fits.
The best thing I loved about being self employed was being able to ignore the red tape of policies, and do what I felt was the right thing to do.
A happy non customer doesn't bad mouth your business infact its possible they will be positive about you. I always try to resolve the issue and a refund is the best way in some cases to resolve it.
However the examples you've given are great examples...
I would be quite disgruntled if I paid £200 for alpha, to then be offered at a reduced rate... and then again further reduced rate.
I'd be right to be disgruntled and good customer care would say "here you go, the equivalent to the offer - either partial refund OR credits to spend on other things (merch in shop when it comes)"
Thats is how I would do it... but lets be clear.. this is not a legal requirement.. most digital sites will state "no refunds on downloads once downloaded"... we did that to.. its to avoid people abusing the system... and allows you to bend the rules when the situation fits.
I would LOVE to wish you a cracking day too... but I fear it's off-topic so, alas, I cannot.
This raises an interested point. I'm sure it's been debated back and forth but do we have an official explanation from Frontier Developments as to why the kickstarter perks haven't been continued with pre-release purchases?
If OP got his money back... I would be annoyed... because I don't believe he's entitled to it.
But if everyone including the OP who purchased the game before release got kickstarter perks (as is the case with SC is it not?) that wouldn't bother me in the least... would even grease the wheels to me purchasing the alpha myself
But isn't that everyone's point? OP came into the store expecting it to be kickstarter. It's not kickstarter... and he's not entitled to kickstarter perks.
I'm not sure what the law is in the UK, but in Australia you can't expect a refund if you regret your purchase.
Based solely on that, Frontier Developments have done nothing wrong. If the law is different in the UK, then I'll be fascinated to find out how it applies applies here.
Still... I think the rule that applies to OP is:
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Michael Brookes
Game Director
I can empathize with the OP here a little and can't really disagree. I do see how the argument can be made that he expressed his discontent 'improperly'. That said, it's his discontent, who are we to tell him how we expect him to express it? I take no offense at anything he has said, he has been honest about his thoughts and feelings and I would hope an enlightened society would not seek to crucify him for it. After all, it's not like he brought a Power Rangers laser pistol toy on the bus in his backpack-- we all know that is a traumatic and unforgivable offense.
I can empathize with the OP for a few reasons which I will try to state in a way that doesn't prompt everyone to send the Inquisition after me (I always expect the Inquisition!!).
1) Others have complained about pricing until pricing was altered to make them happy... These same folk then berated others for complaining about pricing and told them they were acting 'entitled'. That was wrong but I said nothing.
2) Others pledged on the Kickstarter, refused to buy the Alpha at store prices and then got a discount off that price because they complained a whole lot. Some of them then got even more discounts when that wasn't enough-- by complaining until they got it in much the same way the OP is asking for at least a partial refund
3) I was a backer at the First Round Private Beta level. The backer's store closed and the regular store opened. At that time, to get Alpha participation, I had no choice but to pay another 200 pounds which gives me a second copy of the game and beta that I actually can't use separately because they are tied to the same login and you can only login to the game once. I didn't complain as I wanted Alpha.
a) Along comes a discount and I can't get it, nor can I get any refund
at all and still have my beta purchase and a separate Alpha purchase
b) I don't complain but I do watch other's that haven't spent nearly as
much as I have complain and then they get a deeper discount on top
c) I still didn't complain but then had to witness those that complained
and got a bigger discount such that they are getting way, way more
than I am while having spent much less telling others to stop acting
'entitled' just as they had when they exclaimed they deserved a bigger
discount than everyone else.
Now I am bearing witness to someone making a complaint, in a way that is not perfect but certainly isn't unjustified, and those people again tread on that person. This is very unfortunate and I hope to see everyone offer the OP an apology.
I empathize with the OP as I sit here, still not claiming any entitlement though I have spent far more than others and received much less, observing some of those that claimed entitlement denying the OP any such luxury.
Perhaps I should be claiming that I am entitled to be raised to Founder level or beyond as I have contributed far more than they have...No-- I won't do that because I knew exactly what I was buying and how much it cost and was willing to pay it. But I will ask those who spent less than I and got more to have some compassion for the OP.
That is all. I apologize if my rhetoric offended anyone as that was not my intent at all. I appreciate each and everyone one of my fellow forum members-- whether or not I agree with you
Excellent post.
I think it is only that easy if you have not downloaded it already.
But, yes, good customer service is good customer service, but - as it is - we have only heard one side of the story. And even that was not very coherent in the first post. I have no idea what the OP found objectionable in the alpha or why he bought it in the first place instead of just a retail copy. And why he suddenly changed his mind about it - did he overextend his funds in a moment of weakness and then regretted the purchase? Why did he regret it only after playing it for long enough to unlock all the missions and start making gameplay videos?
There are so many unanswered questions here that I will not take sides in the whole argument - except to say that he should have known what he was buying from the very clear storefront descriptions.
Despite the title, the original post on this thread is not really about the closure of threads is it? It starts off complaining about threads being locked, and no doubt some are, but then goes on to elaborate that the complaint threads suffering this are threads about not getting support. That would be a legitimate concern if no support was forthcoming. But then we find out what the OP is referring to when claiming that there is no support, which basically boils down to this: He bought into the alpha/beta/preorder or whatever, and having done so, played it, then got bored by apparently imagining it would be something other than what it was, now wants a refund and was told that this was not going to happen.
Well, if that is the case, then it is not a case of not getting support, it is a case of not getting the decision he wanted. And so what we are really seeing here, is someone who was a bit hasty on spending some cash, has played with what he got for that cash, and now wants the cash back. And commerce does not really work like that, does it? You make a decision to buy something, that is your decision, if you got what you paid for, but later find it was not what you imagined it to be, that is hardly the fault of the vendor, is it? And it not being their fault, them telling you they will not refund you is not a case of 'no support', but more a case of throwing one's toys out of the pram after being told it's not going to happen.
So what we really are talking about is this:
It should be apparent that buying into an alpha is about buying into the process of fine-tuning and testing aspects of the game, a process which is not normally opened up in such a way, but which has been made available to anyone who wants to join in and is prepared to stump up some cash. An alpha is never intended to be a thrilling gaming experience which will keep you entertained for days, it is intended to be a testing process. That is what you bought, there is nothing wrong with what you bought, and its price is irrelevant if you clicked on that buy now button, because at no point was it ever promised that you were buying into anything other than that, nor did anyone hold a gun to your head and make you buy it either.
I've alpha tested and beta tested stuff in the past. It is often boring meticulous work which requires dedication and the repeated playing of stuff in an attempt to see if it is broken. Yes you get a bit of a preview of things to come, but that is not really the purpose of being an alpha or beta tester. That is what you were buying into, you knew that when you clicked that button, you got what you were evidently prepared at the time to pay for, end of story. No lack of support, only a wish to change the rules and a rant when those rules were not changed.
Well, if that is the case, then it is not a case of not getting support, it is a case of not getting the decision he wanted. And so what we are really seeing here, is someone who was a bit hasty on spending some cash, has played with what he got for that cash, and now wants the cash back. And commerce does not really work like that, does it? You make a decision to buy something, that is your decision, if you got what you paid for, but later find it was not what you imagined it to be, that is hardly the fault of the vendor, is it? And it not being their fault, them telling you they will not refund you is not a case of 'no support', but more a case of throwing one's toys out of the pram after being told it's not going to happen.
So what we really are talking about is this:
It should be apparent that buying into an alpha is about buying into the process of fine-tuning and testing aspects of the game, a process which is not normally opened up in such a way, but which has been made available to anyone who wants to join in and is prepared to stump up some cash. An alpha is never intended to be a thrilling gaming experience which will keep you entertained for days, it is intended to be a testing process. That is what you bought, there is nothing wrong with what you bought, and its price is irrelevant if you clicked on that buy now button, because at no point was it ever promised that you were buying into anything other than that, nor did anyone hold a gun to your head and make you buy it either.
I've alpha tested and beta tested stuff in the past. It is often boring meticulous work which requires dedication and the repeated playing of stuff in an attempt to see if it is broken. Yes you get a bit of a preview of things to come, but that is not really the purpose of being an alpha or beta tester. That is what you were buying into, you knew that when you clicked that button, you got what you were evidently prepared at the time to pay for, end of story. No lack of support, only a wish to change the rules and a rant when those rules were not changed.
Actually somewhere (not in the original post that I could see... but somewhere) OP said his beef was that he came to the store from the Kickstarter page and was therefore expected he was getting all the kickstarter perks... and when he realised he wasn't, applied for a refund.
While I still don't believe personally that OP is entitled to a refund, I still don't know why kickstarter perks aren't included up until release... or even cut them off at gamma. If that's off topic to discuss I'd like to make a thread for it... because I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle there.
I got a handful of perks with my kickstarter pledge. I would have NO problem with OP getting all the 200 GBP level perks even though it's post kickstarter. Do any backers feel it would be out of order? I'd love to see EVERYONE who has purchased anything post kickstarter get the perks
To the OP, I am sorry that you feel this way. As you have pointed out it is important to check the terms of an agreement before parting with your money.
In my experience it is easier to get a refund for an purchase that is unused by contacting the vendor privately as soon as possible. Conducting one's business in public can sometimes give the wrong impression.
In my experience it is easier to get a refund for an purchase that is unused by contacting the vendor privately as soon as possible. Conducting one's business in public can sometimes give the wrong impression.
I personally agree with you that the store alpha and kickstarter should offer the same rewards, and it should be made clear in the store. Not mentioning anything about pledge reward isn't clear. When I ordered I googled and found no answer about this, but ordered understanding that the rewards would probably not be included. But it's FD's right to offer an "early discount" or limited time special offer. But I still think it's unfair.
But overall the whole pledge rewards are of course not "worth it". Everything you spend above 35 pounds for the game is just digital luxury. But payed alpha access "works" because at least those who get in will be devoted elite fans. Of course there are dangers in that too.
I spend 100 pounds to help development, also too late and I'm a bit sad I won't get any pledge rewards. I'd welcome if they change it and would go to alpha if they did.
But your post didn't explain what your grievances are. I had to read several responses to figure out what this is even about!
Anyhow let me thank you in the name of all elite fans for spending more and help out create elite dangerous. Consider yourself a patron of the fine arts of game development ;p
BTW in Germany there are customer protection laws that require businesses to refund any product that was purchased by mail order, not even a reason has to be given. Of course digital goods are different, but in any case much less of a financial burden for the seller. So you can certainly be of the opinion you should get a full refund.
I wonder if we are allowed to sell and buy accounts? I'd be interested in buying an account with kickstarter pledge.
While I agree that the different offerings could be construed as unfair, I must take exception to your statement that it is made unclear.
The store clearly indicates, in very readable format, what is included with the package. Even with English being a second language I understand perfectly what is written there.
As I mentioned earlier, is it necessary to further offer a disclaimer in addition to content of what is offered? And would it really be any more read and understood than what is currently obviously being skipped by someone's expectations?
No offence to the Op I suspect that sometimes one's expectation make it so that no matter the warnings, or descriptions, or explanations, nothing will shake that expectation.
You can't fault a business for a user misunderstanding a product, especially when said product is described properly.
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