General / Off-Topic [RANT] We know stuff you don't know

[Alien]

First, I have put this thread in OT, because this is where I feel this should be. Second, I have used a [RANT] tag, because that is what I am posting, a rant.

I am posting a rant because I am fed up of a few things going on, and I am going to have to explain it from the beginning. I was going to keep quiet on this, I had even considered actually apologising to one person (as I will explain later) and changing how I am perceiving this whole situation ... until I made the mistake of listening to the fifth writers interview between Drew & Allen.

So, the Elite Kickstarter was underway and many of us were making comments in the comments section. I am sure many of you will remember all the time David and Michael put in answering comments on there, but it didn't start like that. Have we all forgotten John? He was our only contact with Frontier at the start of the Kickstarter, and then he suddenly went quiet. It was only after that, did David and Michael then start commenting, and we even had the farce where they were both using the same account, so we had no idea if we should ask David or ask Michael, they had to end each comment with who they were.

I, like many others, asked many questions. David and Michael were very good, they did their best to answer questions, except I could not help feeling that Michael was deliberately avoiding answering anything I asked, to the point of ignoring me. I appreciate he was busy, but he had no problem answering other questions, yet anything I said, was strangely unanswered.

I pledged to be a writer on the Anthology book. It was me who got in at the start of that and I feel I really helped Chris get motivated and attract others. I had an idea for a story. As the Kickstarter ended, however, I started to lose confidence in my own ability to write the best story I could, this along with Michael's attitude towards me personally did not help when Styggron insulted me on the IRC channel. I decided at that point, I did not want to be part of such nasty, unhelpful community and decided to not write the story I originally committed to, and also to have no involvement with the unofficial party, which was my idea.

Then, once the Kickstarter ended, this forum just exploded with new members, Brett and Ashley had no choice but to make people moderators. Steve O B Have, OK, fair enough, the guy is very sensible and level headed, a good choice. Geraldine, the only reason I can see she was made moderator was because she "kept the faith", she wasn't the only one, btw Ashley. Then Styggron, and I could not believe what I saw. This guy stated through the whole Kickstarter he would have NOTHING to do with the community once the Kickstarter ended. He was so insistant on that, he even pushed Michael to state that the game would be playable as an offline single player game so that Styggron could still play. He also stated, in no uncertain terms, he would never play online multiplayer. He insulted me to the point where I decided to leave the community I had been a member of for four years when 25,000 other people ignored us. And this guy is a moderator on this forum? I find that very insulting. Am I moaning about the moderators because I want to be a moderator? No, I am admin of my own small forum, and I know better than some how much work is involved, so I understand what it takes to be a moderator on any forum. I also understand what makes a good moderator and what makes a bad one. I know what I am talking about.

But, OK ... I tried to let all that go. I tried to keep quiet, because saying all this just causes trouble, and I don't want to rock the boat, but I don't like who I am sailing with. I even considered that it was I who had this all wrong and I was seriously considering PM'ing Michael to apologise, and maybe I am wrong about Michael, and if so I publicly apologise to him here and now.

Now we have two forums that only a select few have access to, the DDF and the Writers forum. I don't like the the idea that you have privileged staus simply because you have more money than someone else, ironically, that's elitism. It's not fair, it's like saying my opinion doesn't matter, then I wave £300 in your face and my opinion suddenly matters. I had my opportunity with the writer's forum, and I turned it down, so I can't complain about that. The problem I have with the writer's forum is they keep going "we know something you don't know". I am fed up with it. If you have access to information you can't tell us, then don't keep pointing out you have access to the information, it is VERY insulting.

The only person I feel I owe any apology to is Michael Brookes, and I will again apologise for my attitude towards him. To anyone else ... well, you don't want me to finish that.

Alien

 

[Patrick_68000]

A stone into the pond, a seismic shock, a meteorite, a dive behind the scenes.
Probably a large participation in this thread. You are appreciated, Alien, in the forums. Many, go give their opinion here.

 

[Bikky]

I can see what you mean about FD listening to people just because they've got the money to wave around, and it is wrong for those who have insider info to wave it in faces that they know what you don't, with the exception of (I'll pick on Drew) where he's saying in his blogs that changes have happened because of discussions in writers and DD forums and his story has had to cover this, or drop something out. I find that tantalising without having it waved in my face. On the other hand, it would be unmanageable to have EVERYONE in that DDF. And we do have to applaud FD for the foresight in include a DDF and PBF open to a few of the public to get the idea's of the people who will be buying the game, rather than have a big software company dictate it to you.


I agree with the moderator's work load. I've Admined my own Counter Strike clan, forum, website, servers, IRC. It was hours of work a day.


I and many others were gutted when you stopped the drive for the unofficial party, and no one else seems to have taken up the mantle (apart from the lucky ones over WWW (welsh wales way). I hope you reconsider on this, I'd love to help out with it, but don't want to take on the task myself. Although everyone wanted it closer to their home (I say Durham/Newcastle). Most will have been happy to have one anywhere, and as such I feel either Middle of the country (not a southerners middle, a real middle, look at a map) or Cambridge, are the best two options. Give people two options to vote for or three, and go with the majority. If people don't like it they simply don't attend. You and any helpers put time and effort in for free, because you want E-D to be a good community, and wanted to make something others could appreciate.

I've not insulted you, I hope I'm not on that list, neither have many others.
Feel the Love.

 

[JeffRyan]

Honesty... yeah I agree with you on the PBF, sorta silly and I pushed for some more things to be made public resulting in the DDF Archive going public last month.

 

[graham.reeds]

But the DDF was created for a reason, and you knew what was going to happen. Nothing is stopping you from upping your pledge to the required level.

The alternative was that we would have no input, no knowledge apart from drips once in a while to keep the expectation ticking over. At least with the DDF we get some good input - the turnaround on the in-system travel is a good indicator of that.

That is not to say there is a lot of chaff on there and the topics tend to wander away from what they are designed to tackle after the first 5 pages.

Not everything goes our way either. I wanted a lot simpler model for the shields, and no one answered why we can fire out but no-one can fire in and what exactly is the difference between a ship and bullet apart from size and why can one pass through shields and the other can't.

P.S. Since you aren't writing your story for the anthology can I have your slot?

 

[jabokai]

First of all - bad form on mentioning names in there. Two wrongs and all that...

Second - I don't think there's anything wrong with someone in the writer's forum posting something that, for example, steers a topic away from something he knows won't be the case. Simply saying "na na, I know a secret" would be, of course, incredibly lame.

Third - Information. The DDF output is all available publicly once it's done so I see no issue with lack of info from that source. The main reason I (eventually) pledged up to the DDF was BECAUSE I was reading the archive and wanted to get involved as it seemed much more interesting than the main forums at that time. Several of us have also copied and pasted from the active DDF topics when applicable, given there is no embargo.

Fourth - Input. Well, you have a point there - the DDF have simply paid for their privilege, there's no hiding from that. They have no qualifications other than they obviously like the old game(s) and they happen to be able to scrape the entry fee together. Not sure of a better way to create your focus group other than extensive interviews, etc. And when you're trying to fund a game, well, it seems an easy choice to just use cash instead. Bearing in mind that Frontier have no obligation to listen to any individual, and are 100% free to do whatever the hell they like in the end anyway!

 

[Selezen]

Alien. I understand your frustration. But...

Issues between you and specific members of the forum should be kept out of the public eye and either dealt with face to face (PM) or raised in private with moderators or admins (or Frontier senior staff). I am not sure this is the most objective way to resolve the issues you have. And please note that I am not belittling your feelings or opinions. If certain members of the forum have acted disrespectfully towards you then it's not an issue that the other members need to be pulled into. Styggron will likely post his side of the situation on here at some point and that will end up turning this topic into a flame war, which isn't needed.

I would ask that if possible another moderator become involved with this issue and aid Alien in resolving the issues with Styggron and the wider forum.

Ultimately, I would add something I learned on a rather fruity forum a few years ago. People on a forum do not know YOU. They have never met you nor do they have any concept of your own personality, history or feelings. Essentally all we are to each other is a series of random text files. It's not a great idea to take offence at text files in general and my general mantra for personal affronts is "you don't know me, therefore any personal affront is meaningless". I know it is annoying, irritating and often upsetting to read such things, but I think it says more about the person typing that stuff than it does about the reader. Without context there is no meaning.

As regards the private areas of the forum, the Kickstarter structure demands a series of rewards that can be offered to persuade people to part with their money. That's what Frontier and thousands of other pledge projects have done, do and will do. The concept of handing over "money for nothing" is not a favourite of the majority. There are MANY people here (and in the world) who would willingly give Frontier money to fund Elite Dangerous without reward to themselves (and LOADS of those people are on this forum), but the fact is that there are NOT ENOUGH of those kinds of people to reach the kinds of funding levels that were required.

It's a true fact of capitalist society that those who pay will get benefits. Software companies offer additional features in their software for those who pay for them. It's called commerce. Frontier have done the same thing that every corporate entity do in the name of profit. They achieved their goals and were open and honest about what they were doing to achieve that. The incentives were there for everyone to see and the DDF and PBF memberships were part of that incentive.

The DDF and PBF members have purchased an entitlement: an addon to their Elite experience in the lead up to the game. It is no different to buying a membership to any organisation or group and no different to shelling out £50 for a special edition of a game with added t-shirt and lifetime support rather than £30 for the box and disc.

Don't get me wrong - I don't agree with ALL of the things Frontier have done, and possibly won't agree with decisions made in the future, but at the end of the day this is their ballpark, and they're giving us ALL unprecedented access to the development process. If there's more that can be done, then suggestions and objective criticism will go much further, as has been proven by the DDF archive being made public.

 

[Darren Grey]

The problem I have with the writer's forum is they keep going "we know something you don't know". I am fed up with it. If you have access to information you can't tell us, then don't keep pointing out you have access to the information, it is VERY insulting.

Who does? Allen in his regular segments on the podcast? Drew in his updates to his backers? I'm guessing most people like hearing a few little details. It's quite insulting of you to accuse them of teasing or bragging. I don't have DDF access myself, but I really do appreciate the DDF discussion on the podcast to get an overview of what's going on there. I know the whole set-up isn't perfect, but it's wrong to make personal attacks on people.

 

[Michael Brookes]

Airing personal grievances in this way is not acceptable. These should be handled directly, if you have a problem with a moderator then contact Ashley or myself and we will look into it. The moderators here do a good job, but if they get something wrong then let us know. Personal attacks are not welcome.

I have no problem with people raising issues or complaining about something we may have done, but this is not how it should be done.

The DDF and writers forums are by necessity private forums, there is no other way these could work. And are they rewards for people investing more? Yes they are, but that's how the Kickstarter worked and thankfully its working for their desired role, we're getting valuable input.

To be honest I was tempted to close this thread, simply for the personal attack alone. But there are some discussion points that are worth discussing whether I agree with them or not. So I will keep the thread open, but if it degenerates I will have no problem closing it and warning relevant parties.

Michael

 

[Philip Coutts]

I get that people get frustrated and there are times where there are personality clashes. That said naming people and having a go like this isn't right, if you feel someone has insulted you there are ways and means. Problems like this should be carried out via PM's and if that fails contacting FD to raise the issues.

As for the DDF and writers forum, people paid for the privelage so good luck to them. Personnaly I couldn't afford it but harbour no ill will to those who could. Those forums were part of the tools that got the game funded on KS, so good on them.

I would also say that during my time on the KS and on this forum everyone has been welcoming to me. I find this a decent place to hang out and shoot the breeze.

 

[Selezen]

@Philip: I completely agree. Every forum, especially one with loads of members like this one, will have issues now and again. The important thing is to try and deal with them in private rather than in a very public place. Airing this in public is never a good thing to do because from the first post both parties are painted in a bad light and starting from a negative is never a good place to start a debate.

May I suggest a structure to this "complaint" about the moderator?
1) air honest views to the moderator and ask for justification or apology.
2) if no resolution is found, involve another moderator or staffer as a mediator and try and resolve the situation that way.
3) if no resolution can be found, the third party may need to either escalate the issue (perhaps to the community manager, sorry Ashley) or take action to prevent the situation occurring again.

It's always bad seeing this sort of thing on a forum.

Michael makes a good point about the contribution of those who are involved with the DDF or PBF. The incentive to contribute something to the development and environment was a powerful one, and the "special privileges" were priced quite high - this being, no doubt, a method to ensure that those who contributed that donation were serious about their involvement. I personally have never seen anyone take that as a "position of seniority" or attempt to lord it over other members of the forum. On the contrary, myself, Allen and others have tried to pass on as much as we are able from those discussions if other relevant discussions on those areas are going on. There are those who are actively bringing points from the larger forum to the attention of the private areas and thus making sure that the greater forum is represented. Personally I see it as a responsibility rather than a privilege, and I would hope that ego wouldn't play a part in that responsibility.

 

[graham.reeds]

You also need to remember that moderators who are just users themselves (albeit with a little bit more power) who have their own opinions that may differ from your own.

 

[DobrijZmej]

You also need to remember that moderators who are just users themselves (albeit with a little bit more power) who have their own opinions that may differ from your own.

Well, the moderators also not forget that from the moment of their entry into office, they begin to present the law on the forum. Unfortunately, I often come across situations where the moderators are not aware of such a position.
Of course, my words do not apply to the moderators of this forum, unfortunately I can not understand 95% of the information, which they say the rest, I can only read the main news releases =)

But, I'm very sorry appearance of such topics in the forum. But not surprised. The more people, the more difficult to please them all.

 

[JohnStabler]

Now we have two forums that only a select few have access to, the DDF and the Writers forum. I don't like the the idea that you have privileged staus simply because you have more money than someone else, ironically, that's elitism. It's not fair, it's like saying my opinion doesn't matter, then I wave £300 in your face and my opinion suddenly matters.

Viva la revolution!

 

[Susimetsa]

The problem I have with the writer's forum is they keep going "we know something you don't know". I am fed up with it. If you have access to information you can't tell us, then don't keep pointing out you have access to the information, it is VERY insulting.

I can imagine how it might seem insulting and very inconsiderate, but I must say I haven't seen it happening. Mind you, I don't keep track of every thread on the forums and I haven't listened to the podcasts (I'm a visual person and very bad at listening to voice-only) so I may not have a full view of the issue.

The only person I feel I owe any apology to is Michael Brookes, and I will again apologise for my attitude towards him. To anyone else ... well, you don't want me to finish that.

You should know that you come off as rather hostile person in the way you word some of the things you say. You seem to think that we all know where and how you have been insulted and that everyone is out to get you. This is not a hive mind, however, and I for one have no idea what you are talking about and who you have been hostile towards or who has been hostile towards you. And I prefer it that way. Interpersonal relationships are complicated enough even if you do not bring the entire community into them.

I understand your frustration that your ideas are not listened to and taken heed of, but we are all in the same boat in that regard. We can certainly spout all sorts of ideas and demands to Frontier and the developers, but they have no obligation to listen to anyone or to dance to anyone's tune. Not even the people on the DDF forum. They could never do that, after all, since the DDF forum is also merely a group of people with all sorts of opinions about everything, with louder and quieter members. (I'm not part of it, but I've heard all sorts of grim tales... )

 

[Selezen]

I think it's worrying that Alien and possibly others may feel that the DDF, PBF and PWF members are lording it over everyone. I certainly haven't seen any objective evidence of that, but if there are others out there who feel the same I would certainly be interested to hear from them.

To rebut that accusation, though, I would have to say that the members of the three private forums have always been forthcoming to members of the forum when asked about something, and I myself have tried to be as forthcoming as possible with the progress and/or content there as I can. I always take the precaution to contact Michael or others to see if it's OK to share something that we've been discussing, because the content being discussed is often either early concept or very fluid, and there's a chance of annoying or upsetting members by insinuating that certain functionality or content may be in the game in a particular form before that has been decided. There's also the admittedly slightly elitist counter to that, which is that if we're going to share EVERYTHING with the general forum, then what was the point of the DDF reward incentive anyway? Would the fact that the general forum has all the same information cause problems between the "factions" when suggestions from the DDF are actioned but suggestions from the general forum are not? Politics would ensue no matter what the reality was, as some would feel (not know) that the DDF's suggestions were given higher priority even if the ideas were not as good.

Anyone outwith the DDF can make suggestions to Frontier about game content, I think, just by posting it on the forum or PMing a moderator or staffer. It might even be possible to suggest something by approaching your closest DDF member! Far more is gained by proposing a well thought out and concise concept than shouting "oi, forum, my idea'z greatz and youz oughta do it or I'z gonna be kicking up a fuss!!!!!1!!one!!". Not that anyone here would do the latter.

Maybe the question should be asked if there's anything the DDF or PBF members can do to be more approachable to the general forum. Frankly for myself I'm happy to receive and field questions about the concepts and discussions as long as I'm not asked to breach the confidentiality.

Maybe it would be a good idea to post the actual current discussion topic onto the general forum just for information, but under the strict caveat that any discussions there would be informal and not necessarily contribute to the end product.

The Writer's Forum isn't that interesting. Just talking about plot points, legal stuff, editing, proofreading, revisions, cupcakes and stuff like that.

 

[Cody]

I have no problems with the DDF or the Writers' Forum - both were necessary. I do think that the PBF was perhaps a mistake, though - either you're a backer or you ain't!

Re the personal stuff: that should always, wherever possible, remain private!

 

[withnail]

I find your stance on the DDF quite offensive.

It was a considerable outlay for me but I saw it as something that would form an interest over the next couple of years. I am not rich or have money sitting around and neither do I want to wave £300 in your face. It's not elitism either, I have not rammed my membership down anyone's throat and consider myself to come from a working class background.

I really enjoyed this game when I was younger and I really enjoy the involvement that I have now. It has turned out much better than I had expected. I really enjoy taking part in the DDF discussions.

And good luck to the writers too. I hope they enjoy their forum just as much.

You put statements about the DDF in other posts which I ignored in the past but this was too much.

From a commercial viewpoint a significant amount of money was raised in the kickstarter from this pledge level so we have contributed quite significantly to the game being made. This benefits you if you play it.

 

[Selezen]

And good luck to the writers too. I hope they enjoy their forum just as much.

We do. It smells like lavender.

 

[Darren Grey]

The Writer's Forum isn't that interesting. Just talking about plot points, legal stuff, editing, proofreading, revisions, cupcakes and stuff like that.

I have to agree with this. I kinda feel sorry for Allen when he gets asked on the podcast "What's going on in the Writers' Forum this week?" It's mostly very admin-y, going over little details and organisation. Obviously very useful for us writing official stories and discussing whether a drive should be referred to as charging or spooling (still not decided, by the way), but possibly a little dull for the general public. Plus there's the whole necessary spoiler stuff - not just from Frontier, who give us some details but often just "Still to be decided", but more for each other's plots that we don't want widely revealed before our works are finished.

Also this really is a nice place with lots of great and friendly people. There are a lot of far worse online forums out there