I'm thinking the used Cessna or deathtrap kit plane being hawked on craigslist is more of a sublight/interplanetary shuttle equivalent than a starship equivalent.
Re-structure buying ships based on rank
- Thread starter CMDR_A1R
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I'm thinking the used Cessna or deathtrap kit plane being hawked on craigslist is more of a sublight/interplanetary shuttle equivalent than a starship equivalent.
Well, agreed, in theory simple sidearm should be indeed much cheaper than it is now, especially giving that we're far in the future and availability of some form of superadvanced mass-scaled 3D printing technologies is assumed.
But still I wouldn't say 2 millions, it feels like Sidewinder is far more accessible in ED universe than private jet IRL. I think it would make more sense to find some common denominators.
Simple math for sake of example: let's take a commodity, e.g. tea. Average price for a ton of tea in ED is 1691 Cr. Now, for 32000 Cr which is a price of new shiny Sidewinder, I can buy roughly 19 tons of tea.
IRL average price of tea is 1.92 dollars per kilo. It gives us 36480$ for 19 tons. That's what would be the cost of Sidewinder. Now, that's still not the number I'm looking for and not taking quite a lot of things into account, price ranges and cost of production etc, but for the sake of quick example should do.
Maybe simple sidearm is not that simple in the end - this should be capable of effective and reliable shield-penetrating shooting in all kinds of hazardous environments - and such a high price could be compared to IRL higher prices for miniaturized electronics?
I'd settle for a slightly less ridiculous simulation.
Is it?
At least 1-in-1000 people (and probably the low tens of millions) in the real-world could comfortably afford a small private jet. Conversely,
There are maybe a thousand times as many humans in the Elite setting as there are on Earth now, and I'm highly doubtful that billions of people in the latter that afford Sidewinders. Even with some of the comically extreme liberties the game has taken with the setting, tens of billions of interstellar ships, of any sort, seems far fetched.
I'm not sure there is any correlation between tea in the modern Earth and fictional Elite economies and I'm positive that there is no direct exchange rate possible between modern currency and Elite credits. Even in the real world, such exchange rates get extremely sketchy the further back you go as certain goods, commodities, and services become more or less scarce. Look at the cost of computing power even across the last twenty years (genome sequencing costs are a prime exemplar of this), or the abrupt reductions in the scarcity and value of iron and steel throughout human history.
When it comes to the distinction between small arms and starships, I see the latter as both vastly larger and vastly more complex. There is no comparison between any of the small arms in Elite and any of the starships in Elite where the former are more fantastical than the latter. It's hard to envision a scenario that would somehow render FTL travel, or even the incredible non-FTL delta-Vs our ships possesses, easier to achieve than even idealized fantasy small arms. No matter which way I look at it, even a non-simple small arm has to be vastly more simple than a starship to have a niche.
Hell, a Sidewider comes with two laser weapon and miniaturization doesn't explain the massive increase in cost of small arms relative to vehicle mounted artillery, even if the latter is somehow just as powerful (which is a whole other can of worms).
It's takes a lot of leaps of logic and faith to reconcile many of the elements of this game with each other. Too many, IMO. It's a case of game balance at the expense of plausibility significantly harming the game play experience. By rendering the setting surrealistically nonsensical it makes it difficult to interact with or immerse one's self in.
This doesn't sound like any small arm that can be bought in Elite. It sounds like something that one might have if it were heavily upgraded from stock, with effort that could be used to acquire hundreds of millions or billions of credits instead.
Craith
Volunteer Moderator
I agree that the prices for small arms make no sense in Elite, but I explain it for my own immersion as the price for special Pilot Federation only firearms that can be upgraded, compared to the run-off-the-mill stuff you ship around the galaxy by the ton.
I don't particularily like this explanation, and even then I'd like to be able to open those boxes and take one basic peashooter out and use it in an emergency.
The way the Elite RPG handled it was much better imo, basic mass produced weapons were cheap, prototypes and one-o-a-kind ones with better stats are sought after and cost a premium.
I don't particularily like this explanation, and even then I'd like to be able to open those boxes and take one basic peashooter out and use it in an emergency.
The way the Elite RPG handled it was much better imo, basic mass produced weapons were cheap, prototypes and one-o-a-kind ones with better stats are sought after and cost a premium.
Re-structure buying ships based on rank: No
Re-structure buying ships based on license: Yes
We have Pilot Federation in game, why not use it to handle pilot license which would decide which ships can be bought and used by player. Imagine going to exam (training mode for a specific ship or ship class) which once passed would enable You to buy license to fly chosen ship or ship class. There might be limit to ship hull weight, landing pad size, presence of advanced autodocking module installed or time spend piloting ship previous license was giving permission to use.You could still buy and use any ship that normally is available for purchasing it now but if You get caught without valid pilot license during scan You would get a fine (1st time) or go to jail and have ship confiscated (2nd time, rebuy screen in station which is not part of pilot federation or any power that supports it).
Military ranks are granted by major powers in ED. That combined with pilot licenses would enable players to fly ships restricted for military use (in this case military officer would send player to a course which once completed would grant military pilot license).
Even the lightest ship in game which is Hauler in accordance with:
Hauler
The galaxy is full of successful traders who started their career with a Hauler. The ship's comparatively low cost and significant carrying capacity have made it the most popular small cargo ship in human space. The Hauler is highly specialised, however, and consumers are advised that it is...
elite-dangerous.fandom.com
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nice example
I don't disagree. I find it weird that the Pilot Federation has no licensing function. Pilots get free ships for no apparent reason and keep their standing, ranks, and privileges regardless of performance and behavior. It doesn't make any sense other than as a basic game mechanic. This allows players to play a game, make poor choices, and easily recover without lasting consequences. Not a complaint, I get it, its a game.
I would be happy to see more consequences (licensing, C&P, priveledges, demotions, access to stuff) to players based on rank within the Pilots Federation. Ex: If a pilot loses licence to operate certain vessels it becomes an illegal action until licensing is re-established. Obviously this hurts players wanting to play a pirate. Perhaps there are opposing forces to the Pilots Federation that also gives privileges. This of course diverges significantly from current game design. I would like this, lots of other players would not.
Now I'm thinking about the Gran Turismo licence exams. And I kind of like the idea...
Welp. Guess I'm gonna have to improve my flight skills
- Land a Type-9 on a high G world with FA-Off in a telepresence simulation to unlock the ability to fly one.
Welp. Guess I'm gonna have to improve my flight skills
Far from that. Even though 0.6% of wolrd population are millionnaires, it still doesn't mean all of them could afford a private jet. In fact, most multimillionaires can’t afford to own a private jet, due to the costs of upkeep being far higher than cost of purchase, same as it is with yachts etc. Average private jet owner has 1.5 billion net worth, and there are only 2755 billionaires in the world. Of course, this is average, not even median, but we know that currently amount of private jets owners is measured in hunders and thousands at best.
True, accurate exchange rate should account for hundreds of factors, but the simplistic example based on average value of commodity, which is not a subject to significant price fluctuations, gives a good feeling of what is the Sidewinder value in 3307. And as you say above, there are multiple examples in human history where cost of innovative technology got significantly reduced with time, like with cars:
In year 1700 it was hard to envision that the incredible ability to cover long distances with a huge speed in cabs, which do not require any horses to move (wow!), at some point will cost similar to a good common rifle. But then we got Henry Ford and his Model-T in the early XX century. Now in 2021 we've got cheap cars everywhere, and now we feel the same about FTL travel as we felt about cars in XVIII century.
This is exactly what should be happening, with the only explanation of why don't you see huge amount of spaceships everywhere - they're scattered across huge space and time. What other explanation could be there for the huge amount of ships being destroyed daily just by CMDRs? What about monthly, yearly number? What if we include NPCs activities? I wish though that visible traffic in highly populated systems like Sol was more dense, as it should be.
Sad, but true. Economy indeed often feels artificial and limited, even though developer effort is visible, lore explanations are missing or questionable, some roleplay aspects are shallow. On the other hand, player community is absolutely fantastic, which balances things out.
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As a player I don't know why the Pilot's Federation gave me a free Sidewinder. Or pays 95% of the replacement cost of my Imperial Cutter... over and over. I can very easily be a net financial burden on the Pilot's Federation. (add up total value of missions, assuming with the Federation I shared a 50/50 profit which - ridiculous - and compare that to exploding an Imperial Cutter 10 times).
The business model of the Pilot's Federation doesn't seem to make much sense. Along with the overall economy.
I understand that the current social environment is fraught with charged terms, but I find this over the top. Of course, since you meant to be offensive at the same time you attempted to discredit me using a personal attack, I guess that is the point.
Discrimination is the act of treating people differently based on a categorization; in this case, new players.
"I want changes made to the game that I will not be subject to unless I choose to be. New players, on the other hand, won't have that choice."
Excepting the Cobra IV, Frontier has always given all players the same opportunities in the game. The current proposal would change that, since it wouldn't impact everyone. That is a textbook example of discrimination.
If you say something ridiculous expect to be ridiculed.
Edit: But no, it wasn't a personal attack. I was just pointing out that the content of your post was silly.
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I'd be happy if ya'll could just get it through the mailslot, on the right side, FA-ON.
If only there was a way of ensuring all ships had an auto dock module to prevent people from messing up the mail slot approach...
Oops wrong thread
Without autodock wiseguy!If only there was a way of ensuring all ships had an auto dock module to prevent people from messing up the mail slot approach...
Oops wrong thread
In the context of this thread, you only get to buy the ship once you've proved you can land at and launch from a station reliably
The number of private jet owners doesn't say much about the number who could afford a private jet.
If the cheapest private jet costs ~2 million dollars and requires a quarter to half-a-million dollars a year to operate, quite a few of that 0.6% could afford one if they really wanted one. Most of them don't, because most have other priorities.
The most immediately visible disconnect is still the relative cost of small arms.
In any economy where scarcity is a thing, there is essentially no way for a massive conveyance to be less expensive than a much smaller tool, of much lower complexity, made of similar materials to similar or lesser manufacturing constraints.
A one-ton can of battle weapons (which implies modern long guns, meant for war, and should be just about the most leathal small arms available) is about 8k credits. This makes sense if the cheapest FTL spacecraft is ~40k. What doesn't make sense is a single machine pistol costing 50k, or an automatic rifle costing 150k.
The only credible explanation for the prices offered to our CMDRs is some sort of massive licensing fee, not the actual cost of the weapon. It would be like trying to buy a grandfathered ATF class-3 weapon in the US. The weapon may be a couple of kilos of stamped metal that could be replicated by anyone with a plastic ruler and access to a machine shop, but it still costs as much as a house because it's one of the only samples that would be legal for a private individual to possess. Gentrification of firearm ownership.
This should only be happening if we make a slew of far fetched assumptions regarding space travel in general and FTL travel in particular. There are physical constraints that no economies of scale can overcome (it's always going to be harder to accelerate a 40t box than a bullet) if the setting is to be even vaguely recognizable to players beyond a superficial level.
This is what Frontier never took into account and in place of that consideration, we have a lot of handwavium with very little internal consistency.
Gameplay wise, it feels like a post scarcity economy were everything should be free, but they decided to keep the price stickers just to keep score. This is a pretty heavy disconnect with the lore, even as it's relayed though in-game materials. We've got stuff like supposedly destitute factions of refugees, who aren't supposed to have a pot to in, but can somehow spend trillions of credits on paying the mercenary 1% to fight for them and simultaneously field a million ships across CZs.
Have you considered a career in politics? You'd fit very well into the current American political apparatus.