Re-think friendly fire handling

[[VR] Captain_Obvious]

So far there are quite a few problems with getting wanted by accidently fireing at clean vessels. The problem is, that you cannot deescalate the situation. The ship will fire back at you, if you have fighter out in defend-mode, it will fire back again, you will get wanted, police ships will interfere, maybe your fighter or turret will shoot on police as wall, giving another fine... Everything messes up.

How about using the apology-system as it is implemented in the X3-series? In X3, if you damage another vessel, it will fire back. But you can use the contacts-menu, select that ship and say "sorry, fire was by accident". The vessel will cease fire and tells you to check your fire better next time. No fine received.

If you attack that vessel a second time and use the "apology-chat" again, you will receive a more insulting answer about your pilot skills, but the vessel will still cease fire. Still no fine received.

If you happen to attack the ship a third time, an apology will not be accepted. You get a fine for criminal actions and will use reputation malus if you destroy the target.

I think this system could work pretty well in elite when it comes to dealing with npcs/police forces. It would be quite immersive trying to make contact with an accidently hit ship because that is what you would do in real life, right?

 

[Controllerface]

This sounds like a much better idea than what we have now.

Just want to mention as well, I have a few friends who have just recently started playing, and this is the #1 complaint among us all. Between the current existing bugs (getting an assault bounty for attacking a WANTED ship) and the severity of what must be done to clear that bounty (a real pain-in-the- process), I have been having a real hard time getting them to continue playing the game.

 

[Lestat]

Another idea is to learn to use Visual, sound, and radar to help in combat. Spray and pray is not accidental it reckless shooting.

 

[DNYI]

Another idea is to learn to use Visual, sound, and radar to help in combat. Spray and pray is not accidental it reckless shooting.

The above is another knee-jerk response from the "git gud" crowd. When the AI learns not to fly their ships into the vectors that are being continuously hosed with fire in both directions then you may have a more valid point. Until then it is not the fault of the weapon firer if someone decides to ignore all the tracer fire passing through a spot and walk willy-nilly into the path of fire when there are paths that don't take them into the line of fire that have just seconds ago have had weapons firing through them.

 

[Lestat]

The above is another knee-jerk response from the "git gud" crowd. When the AI learns not to fly their ships into the vectors that are being continuously hosed with fire in both directions then you may have a more valid point. Until then it is not the fault of the weapon firer if someone decides to ignore all the tracer fire passing through a spot and walk willy-nilly into the path of fire when there are paths that don't take them into the line of fire that have just seconds ago have had weapons firing through them.

Here the thing when you drive a car. Do you ignore what in front of you or what around you? Do you use Tunnel vision when you drive and let other drivers and pedestrians worry about them selfs? IF so then I hope I never on the same road as you.

The same mechanics are in play here. You have to be aware what around you.

1 Visual try to locate targets that might fly in front of you

2 Radar you can locate potential targets that will fly in front of you

3 Sound you can hear targets come right or left.

Tunnel vision is not a skill.

 

[Ca$hback]

Zero tolerance if you do it, complete aggro on just the fighter if it does it. That way checking your fire is still of the utmost importance and if your fighter screws up it's not a rebuy. Okay, second chance with an admonishment because it's an excuse for some communication, however lame it (the text) may be.

 

[Tygra]

I think you broke the unspoken rule that asked for something to help new players and/or affected combat.

 

[BrownSeaPoster]

Here the thing when you drive a car. Do you ignore what in front of you or what around you? Do you use Tunnel vision when you drive and let other drivers and pedestrians worry about them selfs? IF so then I hope I never on the same road as you.

The same mechanics are in play here. You have to be aware what around you.

1 Visual try to locate targets that might fly in front of you

2 Radar you can locate potential targets that will fly in front of you

3 Sound you can hear targets come right or left.

Tunnel vision is not a skill.

I drive always texting or playing with my cell phone. Only when people scream do I look up and honk for them to move out of the way.

 

[DNYI]

Here the thing when you drive a car. Do you ignore what in front of you or what around you? Do you use Tunnel vision when you drive and let other drivers and pedestrians worry about them selfs? IF so then I hope I never on the same road as you.

The same mechanics are in play here. You have to be aware what around you.

1 Visual try to locate targets that might fly in front of you

2 Radar you can locate potential targets that will fly in front of you

3 Sound you can hear targets come right or left.

Tunnel vision is not a skill.

Using you analogy of a car, what i was describing was a person either standing still at the side of a busy road or walking parallel to the road, with the road having no visual obstructions between driver and pedestrian, where the pedestrian suddenly walked/jumped in front of a car at just as it drove by at lethal speeds after seeing the car, where the car was moving from and where it was going and did not care that their path and timing would give the driver zero time to react to avoid hitting the pedestrian. This would be known as suicide by car or a tragic accident, not vehicular manslaughter or murder.

Under your logic, the driver would be at fault unless, that having seen the pedestrian, the driver must then have precognition of the fact the pedestrian would enter the path of the car at a time where no steering or acceleration/deceleration input by the driver would prevent the impact, and then having precognition of this fact altered the car's course and speed to avoid the impact. Of course as precognition is generally not possible, this means that under your logic the driver would always be at fault even when the pedestrian was attempting to commit suicide, or force someone to hit them so they can sue.

As radar being an end all argument, the in game radar does not do a great job of conveying positional relationships, relative velocity, and direction of movement of ships as evidenced by: 1) The fact that changing the radar scale setting can vastly affect the reported positions of ships and their speed in relation to your own, even when set to linear scale. 2) Ships that stay way above or below you still have their radar dots pass through your own in the same way that ships close to and on your path do when the move past you. 3) The radar does not display values for the grid lines, which would allow you to better judge proximity by saying this contact is between the 100m circle and the 200m circle I need to watch it carefully, vs this contact is between the 4km and 5km circle I will have more notice before I may accidentally fire on it. Additionally, the lack of values for the grid lines make selecting the appropriate sensor scale for the engagement harder.

As for sound, not every one is playing with a great multi-directional sound setup such as a headset with true 7.1 surround sound (5 or more drivers per ear), nor does everyone hear things the same or are capable of hearing. Your argument for sound does not hold for the deaf or hearing impaired that play this game, nor does it give any allowance for audio stuttering, glitches or bugs. Look at the various patch notes and you will find lots of reference to audio issues.

As for visual, not everyone is using VR or head-tracking to allow them to freely look around during combat. And lets not forget the many blind spots that a ship can hide in, like directly behind you, or behind any sufficiently large non-transparent part of the cockpit.

The issues that people have with the current friendly fire mechanics are not as simple as "I shot a ship I didn't mean to because I was reckless." They have issues when despite doing their best to avoid friendly fire the AI of a non-targeted ship decides to do something dumb which ends in that ship being fired upon. Or they have issues with the unforgiving nature of the mechanic, or how there is no way to deescalate the situation after an accident other than charging the fsd and jumping away. When you don't engage in a discussion of the issue that is brought up and just say you need to be better, all you are doing is saying "git gud" and are not helping in any way.

 

[Lestat]

Using you analogy of a car, what i was describing was a person either standing still at the side of a busy road or walking parallel to the road, with the road having no visual obstructions between driver and pedestrian, where the pedestrian suddenly walked/jumped in front of a car at just as it drove by at lethal speeds after seeing the car, where the car was moving from and where it was going and did not care that their path and timing would give the driver zero time to react to avoid hitting the pedestrian. This would be known as suicide by car or a tragic accident, not vehicular manslaughter or murder.

My point has been players are not taking their time to look around and fight. Then they use tunnel vision and they whining. Then they say the game bad. All because they are not taking their time to learn to fight.

Under your logic, the driver would be at fault unless, that having seen the pedestrian, the driver must then have precognition of the fact the pedestrian would enter the path of the car at a time where no steering or acceleration/deceleration input by the driver would prevent the impact, and then having precognition of this fact altered the car's course and speed to avoid the impact. Of course as precognition is generally not possible, this means that under your logic the driver would always be at fault even when the pedestrian was attempting to commit suicide, or force someone to hit them so they can sue.

Fact is your not using everything when you do combat and your complaining. You are not taking your time doing combat. Laziness is not a skill. It will never be a skill.

As radar being an end all argument, the in game radar does not do a great job of conveying positional relationships, relative velocity, and direction of movement of ships as evidenced by: 1) The fact that changing the radar scale setting can vastly affect the reported positions of ships and their speed in relation to your own, even when set to linear scale. 2) Ships that stay way above or below you still have their radar dots pass through your own in the same way that ships close to and on your path do when the move past you. 3) The radar does not display values for the grid lines, which would allow you to better judge proximity by saying this contact is between the 100m circle and the 200m circle I need to watch it carefully, vs this contact is between the 4km and 5km circle I will have more notice before I may accidentally fire on it. Additionally, the lack of values for the grid lines make selecting the appropriate sensor scale for the engagement harder.

Thing is with Radar you use visual and Radar. You don't ignore something else. I can look at the radar and go ok their 3 targets in front of me and plus the one I am targeting. Those 3 targets are right or left or above me or below me. I do take time to view them. They bring a red flag. Will they fly in fornt of me.

As for sound, not every one is playing with a great multi-directional sound setup such as a headset with true 7.1 surround sound (5 or more drivers per ear), nor does everyone hear things the same or are capable of hearing. Your argument for sound does not hold for the deaf or hearing impaired that play this game, nor does it give any allowance for audio stuttering, glitches or bugs. Look at the various patch notes and you will find lots of reference to audio issues.

You know Sound great if you can use it. If you're deaf it not the end of the world. They have radar and Visual to prevent them from doing something dumb. I tend to listen to classic rock Low so I can tell the locations. It can help you.

As for visual, not everyone is using VR or head-tracking to allow them to freely look around during combat. And lets not forget the many blind spots that a ship can hide in, like directly behind you, or behind any sufficiently large non-transparent part of the cockpit.

Yes I have two way to view around. One a VR headset but most of the time I use Mouse or joystick to look around. So there blows your not everyone can use view around. Can we say tunnel vision?

The issues that people have with the current friendly fire mechanics are not as simple as "I shot a ship I didn't mean to because I was reckless."

No it means they are not paying attention. They are not using what in front of them.

They have issues when despite doing their best to avoid friendly fire the AI of a non-targeted ship decides to do something dumb which ends in that ship being fired upon. Or they have issues with the unforgiving nature of the mechanic, or how there is no way to deescalate the situation after an accident other than charging the fsd and jumping away. When you don't engage in a discussion of the issue that is brought up and just say you need to be better, all you are doing is saying "git gud" and are not helping in any way.

Thing is I can use everything to avoid most accidents. The only time I have a problem is when I fly three sheets to the wind. If you don't know what that is is drunk and flying and that my fault. I am not going to whine about it.

 

[[VR] Captain_Obvious]

As having made the original post I want to state, that I am actually not whining about the system. I just would like have a more logical solution for accidents.

Yes, with all flying skills, using radar, sound and everything, friendly fire situations can be avoided. At least up to let's say 98%. But even the 2% of incompetence should be managed in a smoother way IMHO.

Let's stick to that car traffic. You have an accident. Mostly the driver get out of the cars, discuss the damage. You or your ensurance agree to pay the damage... Elite Logic: The other driver immediately jumps out of the car with a sledgehammer and starts hitting your car. Then the cops arrive and also pull out sledgehammers and start destroying your car. Justice served.

But better stick to a combat example. Friendly fire in real world. If one military vehicle happens to hit another vehicle from the own faction, you would radio it, in order to state the error. If you don't the other vehicle might think that yous has been taken over by the enemy. But with Elite Logic: Just kill your comrade. And call military police to help killing him.

Anyway I think, that this lethal response is a bit too harsh for minor faults in battle. A fine would be enough. Maybe a big one or a repair bill for the other vessel. But the current mexican-shootout-system seems rather weird to me.

 

[DNYI]

. When you don't engage in a discussion of the issue that is brought up and just say you need to be better, all you are doing is saying "git gud" and are not helping in any way.

My point has been players are not taking their time to look around and fight. Then they use tunnel vision and they whining. Then they say the game bad. All because they are not taking their time to learn to fight.

So how is it that your point engages in the discussion of adding a more immersive game mechanic by allowing you to deescalate a friendly fire incident through contacting the angered ship? All I see is your "git gud, you only have yourself to blame" rhetoric and not any points on whether it would be a good or bad idea to allow you to use diplomacy instead of just fleeing when a friendly fire incident takes place. Like the original poster, I believe it would make the game better if you could apologize and end the situation without having to flee. Maybe make it so when you apologize you can make an instant credit transfer to cover the cost of damage you repaired or something. That would be a discussion of the topic.

 

[Tygra]

My point has been players are not taking their time to look around and fight. Then they use tunnel vision and they whining. Then they say the game bad. All because they are not taking their time to learn to fight.

Fact is your not using everything when you do combat and your complaining. You are not taking your time doing combat. Laziness is not a skill. It will never be a skill.

Thing is with Radar you use visual and Radar. You don't ignore something else. I can look at the radar and go ok their 3 targets in front of me and plus the one I am targeting. Those 3 targets are right or left or above me or below me. I do take time to view them. They bring a red flag. Will they fly in fornt of me.

You know Sound great if you can use it. If you're deaf it not the end of the world. They have radar and Visual to prevent them from doing something dumb. I tend to listen to classic rock Low so I can tell the locations. It can help you.


Yes I have two way to view around. One a VR headset but most of the time I use Mouse or joystick to look around. So there blows your not everyone can use view around. Can we say tunnel vision?


No it means they are not paying attention. They are not using what in front of them.

Thing is I can use everything to avoid most accidents. The only time I have a problem is when I fly three sheets to the wind. If you don't know what that is is drunk and flying and that my fault. I am not going to whine about it.

@DNYI Just don't, Your dealing with someone who's 'always right' and always shoot posts down.
Too keep it on topic, The other day, I was about a second from a scan being finished while targeting what I knew to be a bounty target because a dozen cops were firing on him already.

Next thing I know, somehow every cop magically knew my ship had not finished scanning a target they already knew was wanted. So, they, all of them, immediately drop him as a target and 100 % attack me.

Last time I checked, there's no module that can tell you if another ship has finished a scan on another target when they them selves are even had another target.

In other words, the game cheated, the NPCs had knowledge they should not otherwise have simulation wise.

But, people want to argue that this is a simulation and such, and the game doesn't even follow its own rules.

So, yea, asking for the game to please follow its own rules is too much around here, and will attack your post for doing so, and no argument you have to the contrary will amount for naught. It all sounds reasonable and such, but it isn't. It doesn't contribute to your idea other then to say 'Get Gud' or be a better pilot or such nonsense, rather then root out the issue with the game, which in this case, the game knows things about you the basic rules of the game say they should not know.

If I am attacking another ship, there is no mechanic in the entire game that lets me know that a 2nd ship is finished scanning a 3rd ship, neither of which I have targeted. But somehow, every cop in the game instantaneously knows that, and even know that their target is inded wanted by already attacking it. It's arcade mode, not a simulation in that moment.

But your arguing the point with folks who might sound reasonable, but if you read it carefully, are simply telling YOU to get gud, rather then cretuqe the game, their just saying it 'politely'.

So, Does the game cheat, yea, it cheats to do what it does. Beware of that at least. When I got shot up, I knew what happened. I don't have to agree with it, I, like you, should have the freedom to come and state my case as to why I think it's a bit 'off balance' game play wise that the game is cheating. But we shouldn't have to Endure 'get gud' people just because they don't like anything anyone has to say about the game and expect everyone to play like they do.

EDIT: ahh, I didn't see that other post part, you picked that up too. cool beans.

 

[Ronzer]

I was just about to reply saying how this, or other things, should be implemented to solve this. Then I thought of TIE Fighter. LOL. Oh the curses that would follow hitting an imperial ship with one shot, while in your shieldless TIE fighter, and the small amount of time until they blew you up. I seem to recall if I was in a TIE advanced, I'd maybe survive. Was it a blast? For sure! Maybe this system is an homage to that?

Fly Dangerous

 

[BurntJello]

support

It would be nice to have a way to de-escalate the situation without having to run away.

 

[Lestat]

You know Tygra. It bad is when you admit you did not finish a scan. Then complain about it. Then going off and saying it the game fault. The fault lies with you. Yes, you know a ship wanted and you fired on it before your scan was done.

 

[Tygra]

Leave me alone. Stop replying to me.

I know what I did in that situation, I don't need you to tell me what I did or didn't do or what I do or don't need to do.

You did not contribute to anything on topic, and made no suggestion for the game.

You do nothing but criticize and attack me and other players.

Reply to me again and I will report it as harassment.

My Only Warning.

 

[Lestat]

Leave me alone. Stop replying to me.

I know what I did in that situation, I don't need you to tell me what I did or didn't do or what I do or don't need to do.

Some times it easier to clear up post for the other players. Here why. People read the topic then they tend to scan through the replies. When it a long reply like yours that has hidden facts. People skip it and then agree with the topic. I just Pointed out the issue you had. So people can go oh he/she did not finish his scan. That what he/she need to work on.

You did not contribute to anything on topic, and made no suggestion for the game.

You know you don't have to make a suggestion on a topic for the game. You can read the post see the problem the person having and point out what they are not useing. They might listen or might not.

You do nothing but criticize and attack me and other players.

No what I do is try to point out player problems. Because this game has a large learning curve and I try to point out ways to fix their issues. Some times it helps to just show them you know ingame or video.

Reply to me again and I will report it as harassment.

My Only Warning.

No what I posting is not harassment. If I was calling you names and such. That would be viewed as harassment.

Because a lot of new players are frustrated. But they are so used to the old school Games. With little or no learning curve.

Thing is this game has a large learning curve. The people who complain are the ones that hate that feature. We can compare this game to Pac man or Angry Birds and other games.

Elite Dangerous. You are thrown out into space with little or NO skills what so ever. (Depends if you read the manual or tried the tutorials or not) The NPC is not always so easy to beat. Then people complain and button mashing does not or spray and pray dose not always help and then they complain. That why I always point out Radar sound and visual know when to fire when not to fire. In your case Scanning.

Angry Birds Pac Man. We can toss in Runescape and Lotro and Wow to boot. Games that start you out so easy or slow you feel like you can beat EVERY battle with button mashing. Those are the games will you hold your hand. Until you get to a higher level. Then you still see button mashing at a higher level. They never taken the time to learn the game.