Ships Ready To Engineer PvE Challenger - Help Finalize Loadout

[Christian-A-Hill]

Hello ED community,

Now that my Krait MK2 engineering is out of the way and have a ship to jump in keep stream of cash coming, I am focusing on the Challenger. I do pretty good now in all Res sites and CZ with the Krait. So why the Challenger?

Within 5 minutes of test driving at the Khan Port @LHS 283, hearing the engine sound, drooling over the greenish cockpit, I signed the purchase paper on the spot. It was the fastest sale the saleman did in his career. This was before I unlocked all the critical engineers, guardian sites and novice knowledge of ships loadout. Suffice to say my non-engineered Challenger did not survive long and to run with blown canopy. It's has been sitting in the dry dock since then.
3 reasons for me to make Challenger work:
LOVE the exterior.
LOVE the interior.
LOVE the Engine sound.

Here is the loadout i came up with. I have the all the mats needed to engineer it to the level I have picked in the build.
https://is.gd/0BMQro

I am very new to Fixed weapon. Have been practicing Large PA in Krait. The reason I picked rails for Challenger is the small hardpoint and want to practice fixed rails. Any suggestions/critiques of the build is hugely appreciated.

 

[Ceekay]

Try and limit weapon types as more than 2 aiming marks can be confusing say beams and MC, engineer the beams for shield damage and the MC for hull, the PD in the Challenger is the limiting factor because getting decent weapon fire duration from all the weapons can be difficult from a class 6 PD

The Guardian power plant is about the same as a grade 3 overcharged so I'd go for armoured + thermal spread to keep heat under control especially if using rails.

Guardian hull reinforcement is worthwhile against Thargoids stick with standard HRP/MRP for human NPC targets

Use shield boosters and Guardian shield packages to get around 750 - 900 MJ shield strength, much more and you lose the advantages of bi-weave fast charge

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Try and limit weapon types as more than 2 aiming marks can be confusing say beams and MC, engineer the beams for shield damage and the MC for hull,

I was going to make two firegroups with,
Group #1: 1. Lasers 2. MC
Group #2: 1. Lasers 2. Rails

Use shield boosters and Guardian shield packages to get around 750 - 900 MJ shield strength, much more and you lose the advantages of bi-weave fast charge

I was going for Shield Tank with modules protection. Are you saying using shooting for max MJ with GSRPs while using Biweave(Thermal+Fast Charge) is not a good idea and I should remove some of the GSRPs and out Heaps instead? On the current proposed plan giving me 1240 MJ.

 

[Ceekay]

For combat I use a single fire group and two triggers one for shield stripping weapons and the second for hull damage weapons, the two can be used together of course but you'll run into PD limitations fairly quickly.

MC's unless they're using the incendiary experimental do about half the shield damage of beams (check the offence tab in the Coriolis link https://s.orbis.zone/6381), this build has fixed weapons but gimballed is fine and even turrets can be useful in the right circumstances.

Railguns are better at sniping internal modules like the power plant but do need a lot of practice to be effective and the shields do need to down first.

Everyone has a different take on shields I prefer the fast regen high resistance approach as the shields will have a chance to regen between engagements.

My build will regen from 50% to 100% in 1 min 47 sec compared to 2 min 56 sec in yours, certainly your's has significantly stronger shields but they probably wont have a chance to regen noticeably between engagements.

Guardian hull and module reinforcement are designed to combat Thargoid weapon damage but TBH I'd still use standard HRP's to get more hit points and they also use power not good with the Alliance combat ships as I believe they have too many weapons for the installed power plant and PD sizes.

 

[Innocentius]

Guardian hull and module reinforcement are designed to combat Thargoid weapon damage but TBH I'd still use standard HRP's to get more hit points and they also use power not good with the Alliance combat ships as I believe they have too many weapons for the installed power plant and PD sizes.

Ceekay always gives good combat advice. One point to add on that Guardian vs normal hull reinforcement debacle. The heavy duty HRP is almost an order of magnitude better than guardian ones once you start stacking them and the added resistances start kicking in. With a single HRP the difference is not as big, but with 3-4 you start feeling a huge difference between the two. With the module reinforcements there is no such difference because they do not benefit from any engineering.

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Everyone has a different take on shields I prefer the fast regen high resistance approach as the shields will have a chance to regen between engagements.

My build will regen from 50% to 100% in 1 min 47 sec compared to 2 min 56 sec in yours, certainly your's has significantly stronger shields but they probably wont have a chance to regen noticeably between engagements.

Really good info! I am still learning the ropes of Shield/Armor. My focus had been ' Do Not Let The Shield Drop!', so havent paid much attention to HRPs. I do have Selene unlocked through. I can imagine how your info can be extremely benefit my Krait as well. I did notice the Shield regen is way too slower even though I have Bi-weave with grade 5 Thermal+Fast Charge. Now it makes sense why. Regen rate for the Krait is 3m 37s!! Because it is loaded with shield modules.

I noticed you have used Military Bulkhead instead of Reactive Surface. Any particular reason?

 

[Ceekay]

It's 10 mil cheaper! (ok so I'm a tightwad! )

Seriously though Reactive + thermal resistant + experimental of choice gives a balanced spread of effective armour and additional hitpoints, but for PVE it's a little OP it really comes into it's own in PVP combat where every hitpoint and % resistance could make a difference.

Reactive armour Challenger https://s.orbis.zone/63cw

A lot of my builds run with engineered stock bulkheads and some HRP/MRP, apart from Thargoid and human phasing weapons that bleed some damage through the shields, or the opponent that uses corrosive rounds to weaken armour when the shields are down there's not much need for Military or Reactive, just depends on the type of combat.

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

It's 10 mil cheaper! (ok so I'm a tightwad! )

Seriously though Reactive + thermal resistant + experimental of choice gives a balanced spread of effective armour and additional hitpoints, but for PVE it's a little OP it really comes into it's own in PVP combat where every hitpoint and % resistance could make a difference.

Reactive armour Challenger https://s.orbis.zone/63cw

A lot of my builds run with engineered stock bulkheads and some HRP/MRP, apart from Thargoid and human phasing weapons that bleed some damage through the shields, or the opponent that uses corrosive rounds to weaken armour when the shields are down there's not much need for Military or Reactive, just depends on the type of combat.

You're wasting your engineering using Thermal Resistant on the Challenger's Reactive armor.

Heavy Duty is a much better option there for the massive gain in HP. Ditch the crappy Docking Computer, you'll be quicker and safer around stations without it, the Challenger isn't fast but it's by no means a slouch.

This is a pretty solid starting point. You can drop the Frameshift Interdictor for a Thermal Resistant HRP if need be. This a pretty good place to aim for, and tweak from there (Build care of Aashenfox): https://s.orbis.zone/3s9l

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Here is the updated build based on some of the suggestions in this post:
https://is.gd/cMrXnV

I haven't tested it yet. By the time ran around to do Material Trading and made my way down to Selene's workshop it was really late. Had to bunk up in of her guest quarters.

I went ahead with Reactive Surface bulkhead. I may use this try some PvP in open just for fun. This way it's done. I have not done much(any) Hull tanking in ED. So tried to load up with HRP. I removed the Rails for now. I like MC and have full confidence in using them. So as this is a fresh build for me and lot of unknowns, made sense to stick with MC to reduce stress level as I get familiar with the build. I have 3 more engineers to visit which should be done tonight then will go for a spin to test it out. I do not have enough mats to do some HRP mod with Thermal resistance so went with all Heavy Duty+Deep Plating. I can see the thermal resistance for Armor is little weaker.

Any last minute suggestions in case I missed something big?

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

Here is the updated build based on some of the suggestions in this post:
https://is.gd/cMrXnV

I haven't tested it yet. By the time ran around to do Material Trading and made my way down to Selene's workshop it was really late. Had to bunk up in of her guest quarters.

I went ahead with Reactive Surface bulkhead. I may use this try some PvP in open just for fun. This way it's done. I have not done much(any) Hull tanking in ED. So tried to load up with HRP. I removed the Rails for now. I like MC and have full confidence in using them. So as this is a fresh build for me and lot of unknowns, made sense to stick with MC to reduce stress level as I get familiar with the build. I have 3 more engineers to visit which should be done tonight then will go for a spin to test it out. I do not have enough mats to do some HRP mod with Thermal resistance so went with all Heavy Duty+Deep Plating. I can see the thermal resistance for Armor is little weaker.

Any last minute suggestions in case I missed something big?

I'd probably replace the Guardian Shield Reinforcement with another module reinforcement. 2 is a big step up from 1, and probably go with a module reinforcement 5 paired with a module reinforcement 1 to free up space for another chunky HRP.

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Analysis of Test Run
================
Build used: https://is.gd/tSv9M5

Just wanted to share the experience of first test run with this Challenger build. Came across few things that I can use some insight from everyone who used Hull tank before. This was my first experience with Hull tank heavy build.
Went to High Res first to test. After successfully destroying whole lot of ships then decided to go to HazRes.

First thing I noticed right away was the maneuverability. I am used to do Res in shield tank Krait MK2. Turning and staying on target was much easier with Challenger. Even with lack of SLF i found Challenger firepower adequate. I could clip any smaller ships with just Beam without using any MC ammo at all. I tested the build on wide variety of ships such as Eagle, Vulture, FAS, FDL, Python, Anaconda. Had few 3 winged groups as well. But did not have much issue.

My Shield stayed up quite well. Also was really surprised to see the fast gen rate. Thanks to @Ceekay for the tip about fast gen rate with lower MJ build. I did find it was taking little longer to take hull down probably due to the small MC. But if when I could get up close I could use both Beam and MC to increase hull take down speed.

Now the issue part. I came across an Elite Anaconda and after few moments of engagement I realized this was going to be easy like other Anacondas. My shield was dropping too fast. Prior to this engagement between HighRes ans HazRes I probably destroyed about 30 ships and never lost shield. In the heat of the moment I could not pay attention what that Anacoda was shooting with but I did hear Covas mentioning Impulse something attack. I panicked after my shield dropped and I started to take hull damage. No doubt due to the hull tank I was taking damage at significantly lower rate than I did in Krait. At 88% of my hull I was able to take the Conda's shield down. At 79% of my hull my weapons started to malfunction and the Beam turned into a tiny stream and MCs started to have issues. Finally at 69% hull I heard the cracking of my canopy and decided to run. I didnt lose the canopy but cracks were all over.
At the time i was running the Conda had it's hull down to 85%. Now my question is was this normal behavior for a hull tank ship? To me it seems like with the amount of HRP/MRP I put on with slightly above avg Engineering, I should have been more comfortable with hull damage. Certainly my canopy should not have produced cracks.

Any insight on hull tank expectation is hugely appreciated.

 

[photomankc]

Weapons are exposed and tend to get punished first. Individual systems in the ship can take damage even with MRPs and that is also independent of hull and a critical module can end things early. That canopy is a weak point.

Here’s my build:

EDSY

EDSY is a ship outfitting tool for Elite Dangerous

is.gd

With the bigs try not to face-tank em. Your canopy is going to take a beating. Target the big ship’s power plant. Your multicannons can tear that up from above or below and it short-circuits their hull tank. Mine can get in close and scrap but I can also stand off and pound them with rails. Try to maneuver off the nose of the anaconda. I try to push to the sides because they have terrible yaw and I can work back behind them that way.

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

With the bigs try not to face-tank em. Your canopy is going to take a beating. Target the big ship’s power plant. Your multicannons can tear that up from above or below and it short-circuits their hull tank. Mine can get in close and scrap but I can also stand off and pound them with rails. Try to maneuver off the nose of the anaconda. I try to push to the sides because they have terrible yaw and I can work back behind them that way.

You are spot on with this assessment, I was indeed face tanking the conda when my canopy started to crack. I have not targeted any of the modules at all. On tonight's run I will try to remember to target the PP and stay out the nose as much as possible.

I see your build is more Raw hitpoints vs resistance. Is that better way or just another way to build?

 

[photomankc]

Yeah, I’d say it’s a different way not really “better” than resistance but I sometimes outfit it to fight Thargoids and maybe some PvP and both sport weapons that deal absolute damage. Resistances are fine too and can get you more effective protection while keeping shield regen rate fast.

I can solo medium and high CZs in that pretty well and take out spec ops as long as I don’t pull more than 2 at a time.

 

[Stigbob]

Don't do facetanking always have your manouvering thrusters on, roll so your up/down axis is allligned to the targets horizontal one and thrust up or down to get out of the line. Because of ED's weak yaw he will struggle to keep you in his sights. Once out of it stay out of it, use the same technique to stay behind him as much as you can.

Consider a little fighter DBS/Courier where you absolutely have to manoeuvre to survive a fight as those skills transfer directly to the bigger ships (just a bit slower).

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Don't do facetanking always have your manouvering thrusters on, roll so your up/down axis is allligned to the targets horizontal one and thrust up or down to get out of the line. Because of ED's weak yaw he will struggle to keep you in his sights.

Could you please elaborate what do you mean by Maneuvering Thrusters On?

 

[Stigbob]

Could you please elaborate what do you mean by Maneuvering Thrusters On?

Thrust up&down&left&right constantly. Dodge incoming fire and stay out of his line of fire.

 

[Ceekay]

I know this sounds counter-intuitive but thrusting down as you pitch up while tracking the target will help a lot, essentially the ships forward velocity gets split between forward and down thrusts making for a tighter turning circle.

How much down thrust you apply is very dependent on the ship the FDL for example can lose forward momentum very easily from just a little down thrust, best approach is just to play around with it and if you add a boost to this technique the ship goes down like " an express elevator to hell!"

 

[Christian-A-Hill]

Thrust up&down&left&right constantly. Dodge incoming fire and stay out of his line of fire.

Ah got it. Yes it is true I am not using the Thrusters enough or using them at the wrong time.

I know this sounds counter-intuitive but thrusting down as you pitch up while tracking the target will help a lot, essentially the ships forward velocity gets split between forward and down thrusts making for a tighter turning circle.

How much down thrust you apply is very dependent on the ship the FDL for example can lose forward momentum very easily from just a little down thrust, best approach is just to play around with it and if you add a boost to this technique the ship goes down like " an express elevator to hell!"

I actually use the down thrust+pitch up quite a bit with hope to keep firing while trying to get behind a target. But NPCs seems pitch down and follow me as well. As for Boost, I use it a LOT in the Krait . Thats the only fastest way I seem to be able to turn faster.

It seems to me from all the suggestions, I may be trying to do right things already just not enough of it and/or timing is wrong. Just practice will help me hone the skills.

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

If you boost a lot in the Challenger, especially against the AI, you're gonna end up in a situation where you just keep jousting. You can win that through attrition, but it's better to keep your boosts for clearing the enemy's gunsights or catching back up to enemies that have extended away from you. Unlike the Krait, the Challenger does not have half-cost boosts and an over-spec distributor to keep boosting perpetually while having pips to spare for weapons and/or shields.