Realistic Expectations

[Barking_Mad]

Nope wasn't you. And it isn't re-writing the engine, more like adding enhancements to the engine that is there. That also includes the lighting update as well.

Basically it was someone saying that FDev should scrap ED and make ED2 with another engine which makes no sense at all.

Ahh OK, apologies.

 

[Vasea Azure]

Star Citizen is a much larger project than ED could ever be. If we asked how long would it be to have legs, FPS combat, ship interiors and atmospheric planets that are seemless along with missions and squadron 42 - how long right now do you think it would take FDev - another 5 years? 6? 7? A game like Star Citizen was obviously going to take years and anyone looking at the bucket list of mechanics to be made AND then thinking it was going to be done in 4 years was simply clueless to game development or simply does not play games.

Very disappointing to hear this from ya J man, you see flaws in ED but defend this uber train wreck of broken promises/deadlines and... uhhh I need to get out...

 

[Ian Skippy]

Very disappointing to hear this from ya J man, you see flaws in ED but defend this uber train wreck of broken promises/deadlines and... uhhh I need to get out...

Its what drives the bitterness. People just jump from one dream-hype-game to the next once they realized their dream game is 'flawed' or 'doesnt reach its potential'. Its why this absurd bitterness is super prevalent in space game communities, whereas people who play fifa/cod/etc just expect a bit of fun for a bit of money.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I think the challenge is that those that went through the kickstarter have a different expectation to those that haven't.

Alot of the angst and "anger" appears to be people comparing what was written in the DDF, or said in the kickstarter and comparing it with what the game is and seeing glaring discrepancies. Or even comparing it to previous iterations of the game.


Kickstarting is a risk, and it also does not guarantee what a backer thinks should happen will happen, you are giving up cash to kickstart an idea and as a reward get something in return and most of the time what you get is not 100% of what your expectations were.

All us KS and Premium Beta backers can all pretty much agree that we were told that the design "may change" - and that backing was a risk.... but at the heart of my issues with the game is one single question:

"How far and how many changes are allowed away from the features that were outlined and sold to the KS and Beta backers, before the game becomes a product you didn't pay for?"

5% - 10%, 20% 40%?

If you paid to have a human zygote (egg and sperm) genetically modified to "fix" a known severe life threatening genetic abnormality that would otherwise be transferred (test tube baby), but after 9 months your partner delivered a chimpanzee - which has just a 1.2% genetic difference - would you be ok with that, after all it's still an ape, just like us (Human genetic classification is Ape for those that don't know) - just a different sort of ape.

There are so many sections of current content that could have been added AFTER ALL THE KS STUFF; and thus negated many of the issues backers and those who bought on launch, have with the current game. Instead FDev made thier own choices to suit them (using backers money), and have suffered backlash after backlash as a result.

4 years on and yet more combat ships are being released while mining and exploration still left out in the wilds to slowly starve to death.

The KS backers don't have a "different expectation" as though we are at fault - we just have the expectation of seeing the content FDev told us about. All of it was completely do-able as none of it was particularly ground breaking in scope.

That's all - no more, no less.


This is the sort of issue many of us have - another big misconception is that KS and premium backers are expecting a perfect universe - those who are realistic, and paid attention during the KS are not - the truth is that the content that was outlined in the KS was actually quite basic for many space sims, but while basic if all those features were ALL COMPLETELY INTERCONNECTED, the game would be so much more than it is now - so while FDev have added features not mentioned in the KS and people keep saying how we've gotten MORE than we paid for, the truth is because it's all so disjointed, the games higher content features still manages to feel SO MUCH LESS, than other games where the BGS felt "alive" and player actions were persistent and meant something.

All the players that came after with no real knowledge of what went on during the KS and DDF etc etc are bound to feel "satisfied" because they don't know anything about "the game ED could have been".

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Its what drives the bitterness. People just jump from one dream-hype-game to the next once they realized their dream game is 'flawed' or 'doesnt reach its potential'. Its why this absurd bitterness is super prevalent in space game communities, whereas people who play fifa/cod/etc just expect a bit of fun for a bit of money.

Agreed. I know the game is flawed and has issues and is far from perfect, but I can still have a great time playing the game with its issues.

I don't get the bitterness and the the attempts to justify that bitterness with some of the times untruths and deceit.

If I really dislike the game and the developer I would be doing something else with my precious time. I find it a bit sad to be honest.

 

[Blackcompany]

But that doesn't mean it's definitely not coming either. IMO we'll get lots more stuff from the DDF, especially the planet types. I can't see the game being unfinished in that respect. Other stuff... who knows but I don't share the pessimism of some. I just try to be pragmatic about it.

Really?

We are four YEARS in. They aren't going to all the sudden go from MVP to Top Tier focus on Elite now.

Fdev had years to implement stuff from the DDF. They chose to waste it on time sinks and RNG grind instead.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

I believe these two are twins.

Max don't be a div - you know damn well that two people with the same assessment of a subject or thing can occurr without collusion; especially when enough evidence points to those conclusions that any DIFFERENT assesment becomes a virtual impossibility for anyone with an average IQ.

I KNOW that you have seen with your own eyes posts saying the same things as Jex =TE= and Blackcompany over the last four years, because you've commented on them, so your above post is a poorly disguised attempt at humour when the real intent was to throw disrepute on them both and what they were saying.

You're becoming quite the knuckle dragger these days in your increasingly feeble attempts to defend ED.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Max don't be a div - you know damn well that two people with the same assessment of a subject or thing can occurr without collusion; especially when enough evidence points to those conclusions that any DIFFERENT assesment becomes a virtual impossibility for anyone with an average IQ.

I KNOW that you have seen with your own eyes posts saying the same things as Jex =TE= and Blackcompany over the last four years, because you've commented on them, so your above post is a poorly disguised attempt at humour when the real intent was to throw disrepute on them both and what they were saying.

You're becoming quite the knuckle dragger these days in your increasingly feeble attempts to defend ED.

Rafe. Don't be such a div and don't take what I said seriously. Of course they are not twins.

As to their integrity and honesty, AFAIK they have none.

As to defending FDev, I am not, far from it so I suggest you sort out your own knuckle dragging and read what I actually write instead of making stuff up.

 

[Blackcompany]

Max don't be a div - you know damn well that two people with the same assessment of a subject or thing can occurr without collusion; especially when enough evidence points to those conclusions that any DIFFERENT assesment becomes a virtual impossibility for anyone with an average IQ.

I KNOW that you have seen with your own eyes posts saying the same things as Jex =TE= and Blackcompany over the last four years, because you've commented on them, so your above post is a poorly disguised attempt at humour when the real intent was to throw disrepute on them both and what they were saying.

You're becoming quite the knuckle dragger these days in your increasingly feeble attempts to defend ED.

This is what gets me (thanks, by the way): we are calling out demonstrable truths, and yet, we are disparaged and called liars.

Did Braben make promises (see my signature)? Yes. Were many not delivered, or even attempted? Also, yes.

It's been 4 years of a dwindling player base and obvious decrease in full time development and focus, with updates coming at a glacial pace (sorry, glaciers) despite containing mostly game settings tweaks and copy pasta ships.

Obviously, there's an inability to deliver somewhere. Probably, technological limits prevent the engine from achieving much of what the game was supposed to offer...but that still means feasibility testing was not performed prior to promises being made...and that, is it's own set of problems.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

The kickstarter money was nowhere near enough to cover the original release and Frontier went over their initial budget by a considerable amount of money for 1.0 to be released.

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-09-11-elite-dangerous-original-budget-was-8m

The KS while being a "success" in as much as it made what was asked for - was in reality an abject failure, because they needed more but knew if they asked for the full £8 million, they would never have got it, so they did what most online auction sites do, put a low starting figure and hope that the frenzy of demand makes a lot more, as had often happened to other KS projects.

They gambled and lost, but still limped (barely) over the KS threshold that meant they were now legally obligated to deliver.

From their point of view I DO have sympathy for that, as it must have been a real "OH SH**" moment once it became apparent that FDev was on the hook to deliver a game with only 1/4 of the required funding in thier pockets.

HOWEVER, and here's where my sympathy ends, SINCE LAUNCH, the game has made SIGNIFICANT profits as mentioned elsewhere, DB's personal fortune earned on the back of ED is more than the total required cost to produce the game as was.

FDev have had the money - more than enough, as already mentioned to give us all that was promised and more besides, and they have not - so the "ED cost more of our money than we thought it would" deserves no sympathy for DB or FDev as a company of any kind.

Every single member of the board is a millionaire as a result of the KS backers.

FDev share prices 2 Dec 2013 - 96.00
FDev share prices 5 June 2018 - 1,830.00

A TWENTYFOLD increase in value - need I say more?

 

[Vedmo]

From the perspective of someone who bought this game at the end of last year, and didn't bother with the forums until a few months ago, I've made an honest attempt to see the viewpoint of KS backers, scoured over archaic documents, watched boring videos, and imagined myself making complex connections on massive chalkboards only to come to the conclusion people still hung up over perceived slights by a video game developer they made a personal decision to donate money to several years ago sound a bit off kilter.

I can't think of a single thing that happened four years ago and made me angry, much less one I still obsess over.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

Rafe. Don't be such a div and don't take what I said seriously. Of course they are not twins.

As to their integrity and honesty, AFAIK they have none.

As to defending FDev, I am not, far from it so I suggest you sort out your own knuckle dragging and read what I actually write instead of making stuff up.

You implied that they had somehow colluded in thier assesments, which was the flavor of what you wrote (which is what I said, check again), OFC I wasn't implying that you meant that they were actual twins, that's ridiculous.

And there you go again with the muck slinging, while pretending that somehow you were being humourous.

I DID read what you wrote, still not changing my statement. You've become quite the master of "insults hidden behind sarcasm" and "defending while dressed like a sympathizer" - because the vast majority of your posts defend ED, regardless of what they've done.

 

[Rafe Zetter]

From the perspective of someone who bought this game at the end of last year, and didn't bother with the forums until a few months ago, I've made an honest attempt to see the viewpoint of KS backers, scoured over archaic documents, watched boring videos, and imagined myself making complex connections on massive chalkboards only to come to the conclusion people still hung up over perceived slights by a video game developer they made a personal decision to donate money to several years ago sound a bit off kilter.

I can't think of a single thing that happened four years ago and made me angry, much less one I still obsess over.

You had to be there wait 3 years for an artbook - 4 years for a 3d model that cost you almost £1,500 then arrrived broken, that sort of thing. You can't really put yourself in our shoes, because many KS backers were members of this forum and things like Oolite and saying "DB has said he would like to made Elite 4 many times - perhaps one day that dream will come" for FIFTEEN YEARS.

Then the KS gets announced we back it and..... what's inside doesn't look like the picture on the box.

 

[Vedmo]

I'll take your word on that in good faith, Rafe Zetter.

I do admit there is some appeal in playing the gumshoe and doing some forensic work on all the old resources and references.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You implied that they had somehow colluded in thier assesments, which was the flavor of what you wrote (which is what I said, check again), OFC I wasn't implying that you meant that they were actual twins, that's ridiculous.

No I did not imply they colluded in their assessments. You are seeing stuff which isn't there.

And there you go again with the muck slinging, while pretending that somehow you were being humourous.

I am voicing my opinion based on the way I have been treated by them. The only person doing the muck slinging is you at the moment (knuckle dragging).

I DID read what you wrote, still not changing my statement. You've become quite the master of "insults hidden behind sarcasm" and "defending while dressed like a sympathizer" - because the vast majority of your posts defend ED, regardless of what they've done.

As to insults hidden behind sarcasm, well slow clap there, what the hell do you think sarcasm is.
Meaning of the word sarcasm just in case you do not know: the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.

As to the vast amounts of my post that actually defend FDev as an entity, please show all of these 100s of posts. I would like to see them.

If you actually read my posts, most of them are about stuff I would like to see improved upon. But hey, you probably conveniently ignore them.

Anyway, if you want to continue this discussion, private message me as I do not want this taking over this thread.

 

[Chaparral]

It is no surprise that a game (ED) with so many placeholders is actually a placeholder itself.

 

[Ian Skippy]

As to the vast amounts of my post that actually defend FDev as an entity, please show all of these 100s of posts. I would like to see them.

again: if you cleared your ignore list you'd see that a huge amount of people think you are a rabid fanboi at best, or shill at worst. If that is not what you try to convey, I humbly suggest changing your communication methods. And having said this, can we please not have this topic be another 'you vs someone else' for posts on end? Thanks.

 

[babelfisch]

This is what gets me (thanks, by the way): we are calling out demonstrable truths, and yet, we are disparaged and called liars.

Did Braben make promises (see my signature)? Yes. Were many not delivered, or even attempted? Also, yes.

It's been 4 years of a dwindling player base and obvious decrease in full time development and focus, with updates coming at a glacial pace (sorry, glaciers) despite containing mostly game settings tweaks and copy pasta ships.

Obviously, there's an inability to deliver somewhere. Probably, technological limits prevent the engine from achieving much of what the game was supposed to offer...but that still means feasibility testing was not performed prior to promises being made...and that, is it's own set of problems.

Some of these demonstrable truths have been proven wrong just a few posts ago.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

again: if you cleared your ignore list you'd see that a huge amount of people think you are a rabid fanboi at best, or shill at worst. If that is not what you try to convey, I humbly suggest changing your communication methods. And having said this, can we please not have this topic be another 'you vs someone else' for posts on end? Thanks.

I don't have anyone on my ignore list and I only see the usual suspects that think I am a rabid fanboy because I don't put up with their lies and call them out on it. Or they think I actually believe something when I am playing devils advocate, which should be obvious with anyone with a few brain cells to rub together. And to be honest those people, I really do not care what they think of me, they can call me fanboy, white knight or whatever they want, doesn't make them correct.

As to some of the others, it's usually people that can't accept when someone has a different opinion on a subject, and just because of that they come out with the white knight and fanboy name calling.

Thats just the way some people are. I am not going to change, what you see is what you get. But if people want to twist what I say around to further their own agendas, they can do that. It really does not bother me that much.

Also people call me a fan boy because I am an optimist. But that doesn't make me a fanboy and if the game fails or doesn't live up to its potential or goes down a path that I am not happy with (some of it already has), then I am just as optimistic that I will find another game to play.

At the end of the day people take this too seriously. It is a computer game at the end of the day. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Soon(TM)]

Can we please stay on the thread subject and not start targeting each other personally please.

I for one would not like this thread closing because of two people arguing.

All your doing is giving the admins an excuse to close another thread that's exposing a lot of people's feelings towards the games development.