Realistic orbital mechanics and sublight travel

Cmdr Thermion

C
Maybe in a special enhanced realism mode, anyway....I'd like to see the game incorporate more realistic physics with regard to orbital mechanics and sublight travel.

The notion that a specific ship is limited to a speed of XXX meters per second at full throttle and more in boost is frankly absurd. I understand why the game mechanics incorporate it, and it makes sense from the perspective of the typical gamer who wants to jump in and start playing without having to invest a lot of effort in learning how to fly in space in a true and accurate physics simulation, which is barely even hinted at even with flight assist turned off.

But I'd like for there to be a game mode that bases all flight characteristics and orbital mechanics on Newtonian physics. WITHOUT having to switch to Kerbal Space Program, which is currently THE hardcore space sim for people who are into hardcore realism with regard to orbital mechanics.
 

ebbrell

ebbrell
Like one of the previous versions of elite. It would make interdictions impossible due to the massive speeds of you and the other ship.

But I would like more simulation and less arcade mechanics.
 

Cmdr Thermion

C
Achieving and modifying orbits would be done at speeds that a human can deal with.

Personally I think that the interdiction aspect of the game is among the dumbest parts of it. If they got rid of interdictions it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
 

varonica

varonica
Cmdr Thermion said:
Achieving and modifying orbits would be done at speeds that a human can deal with.

Personally I think that the interdiction aspect of the game is among the dumbest parts of it. If they got rid of interdictions it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
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Except that wouldn't happen because a fraction of a second, and we are talking probably microseconds here, in turnaround and and slowing down basically means the difference between missing altogether and burning up in a ball of fire. To travel realistically from one planet to another would require a continuous acceleration strong enough to push you up to a sizable fraction of light speed, also entering atmosphere and not either bouncing off or burning up these days is all done by computer even at our ridiculously slow speeds, so it would of necessity be all either computer controlled or a computer in the background continuously adjusting thrust and vector to make up for the sloppy meatbag with zero sense of accurate timing that keeps making a mess of the flight path.

Humans can't deal with the timing and actual mechanics of space flight, we are essentially just along for the ride, the only time we are useful is the last few seconds where we can see the ground moving along below us at a speed of less than a few hundred kph, that's it for our input in spaceflight even these days of purely chemical propellants.
 

Cmdr Thermion

C
We don't have a "Burn up in the atmosphere" mechanic in the game and I'm not asking for one. Nor am I even suggesting that there should be complete and total manual control of every phase of flight. However I'd like to see more realistic orbital mechanics and Newtonian motion implemented, at least in a specific game mode offering higher physical realism.

There are plenty of people playing KSP that have learned to do trajectory calculations and orbital insertions with precision and without using an automatic control mode. And orbital elements can be calculated with pencil and paper if you know what you're doing.

If the game simply included a visual "this is where you are currently headed" window in the display, showing your current vector and where that will take you, then that by itself would be an effective visual tool for the manual pilot.

Here's a partial list of available flight calculation tools created by KSP enthusiasts:

Calculation tools - Kerbal Space Program Wiki

wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com
 

varonica

varonica
Cmdr Thermion said:
There are plenty of people playing KSP that have learned to do trajectory calculations and orbital insertions with precision and without using an automatic control mode. And orbital elements can be calculated with pencil and paper if you know what you're doing.
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Not at the speed required for interplanetary travel, a few sci-fi writers have played with this idea in the past, read "Into the Comet" by Clarke.
 

nanite2000

nanite2000
Cmdr Thermion said:
We don't have a "Burn up in the atmosphere" mechanic in the game and I'm not asking for one. Nor am I even suggesting that there should be complete and total manual control of every phase of flight. However I'd like to see more realistic orbital mechanics and Newtonian motion implemented, at least in a specific game mode offering higher physical realism.
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Newtonian orbital mechanics are already implemented in-game for quote some time. You can achieve a stable orbit with sufficient velocity using fight-assist off:

Source: https://youtu.be/wWJEnogSNFY?list=PLYu7z3I8tdEnye22pxwFp2QogI9t76mCN&t=879


Cmdr Thermion said:
There are plenty of people playing KSP that have learned to do trajectory calculations and orbital insertions with precision and without using an automatic control mode. And orbital elements can be calculated with pencil and paper if you know what you're doing.

If the game simply included a visual "this is where you are currently headed" window in the display, showing your current vector and where that will take you, then that by itself would be an effective visual tool for the manual pilot.

Here's a partial list of available flight calculation tools created by KSP enthusiasts:

Calculation tools - Kerbal Space Program Wiki

wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com
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I hate to be "that guy", but it sounds like you'd be better off playing KSP rather than Elite. Adding the full unlimited Newtonian flight mechanics you've requested would not only require a major re-write of the underlying game engine, it would also make combat and general flight very un-fun for anyone but the most hardcore players, and would provide no tangible gameplay improvements over what we have right now.

Having said all that, a 'current vector' indicator would be nice.
 

Cmdr Thermion

C
I tried KSP for a while and it's a game that's deep but narrow. Elite is much more enjoyable for me but I'd like it to be a lttle bit more hardcore sim in some regards.

I'm the guy who also likes to fly flight simulators and I've logged thousands of hours flying an F-16C Block 52+ in Falcon 4.0 and all the expansions and extensions that followed the original title to the present day BMS 4.33 and now I'm starting to get into DCS World now that it has a high fidelity F-16 package, all configured for maximum realism settings. Realism to the point that you have to follow the actual preflight and startup checklists and use all the relevant in-cockpit control functions correctly in order to start up the jet and go flying. And then go get into a few dogfights or assorted missions of any type available.

In fact my HOTAS I fly in ED with is the Thrustmaster Cougar which is closely modelled on the F-16 throttle and joystick. But for all its functions, ED makes me wish it had even MORe controls on it although it already has close to 40 control functions.

And that's another thing...the "flight model" that applies to maneuvering in combat in ED is ludicrously primitive and simplistic if it's compared to the way any real world aircraft flies, in addition to its completely ignoring Newtonian physics. I still like a certain amount of PVP combat but the flight model is as rudimentary as that found in the early 90s Star Wars titles "X-Wing Alliance" and "Tie Fighter" and "Tie Defender". Fun? Yes. Accurate? Not even close.

Oh well, this is just a wish list. Doesn't keep me from enjoying what we have.
 

777Driver

777Driver
Cmdr Thermion said:
And that's another thing...the "flight model" that applies to maneuvering in combat in ED is ludicrously primitive and simplistic if it's compared to the way any real world aircraft flies, in addition to its completely ignoring Newtonian physics. I still like a certain amount of PVP combat but the flight model is as rudimentary as that found in the early 90s Star Wars titles "X-Wing Alliance" and "Tie Fighter" and "Tie Defender". Fun? Yes. Accurate? Not even close.

Oh well, this is just a wish list. Doesn't keep me from enjoying what we have.
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As someone who has been flying from the age of 16, I have no idea why you are trying to compare ED to flying a real aircraft. The devs where clear, we get a Newtonian model with a FBW overlay. Considering you use used old Falcon 4, you should understand.

As stated above, you can override the flight control laws, it is easily done on high G planets. Still, this is just a game, the model was created for combat to be enjoyable.

Flight control laws have been around since the 1970's, I would actually find it strange to have a full Newtonian model, considering we have fuel burn based on MW usage, not thrust output. That is the holy grail for modern engineering.

Despite our current tech being FBW based, we are still archaic in our propulsion methods, that is the only reason we need orbital mechanics for our space craft, efficiency due to the ridiculous amounts of fuel required to get into orbit. If you want modern tech, stick to KSP.

All that being said, it has been requested a number of times (by myself & others) that we have the ability to completely override the FBW laws put into the game, I'd prefer it, for fun, but it would completely break the game.
 
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metatheurgist

metatheurgist
You wan to to spend real time weeks thrusting up and counter thrusting down so you can take years to reach a destination? Play frontier without the Dream-thingy, that's what you're asking for.
 

MPL3D

MPL3D
Just to comment that additionally to speed, self-rotation is hard limited too.

Also gravity forces are deactivated, since entering 'normal space' near any celestial body will apply an acceleration to the ship that should be constantly countered by thrusters. And not talking about low level orbits but distances as far as half a million kilometres for big bodies like a star o a gas giant.
 

badibeat

badibeat
varonica said:
Except ...
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Except that it sounds like you get your info from SciFi novels. Consult wikipedia for a change.
In reality with space monkeys in the cockpit (whether at the controls or not) the acceleration has to be within limits to keep the monkey alive.
Forget your milli-micro-nano-pico-femto-atto-seconds.
 
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nanite2000

nanite2000
Cmdr Thermion said:
I'm not looking to change games. I'd just like a few more options in ED. No need for salty "You're not happy, why not quit?" comments.
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Nobody’s suggesting you should quit.

But the scale of the change you’re requesting means it’s not going to happen, so people are suggesting alternatives that you can play without having to quit ED.
 
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