Rebalancing ships with purpose instead of buffs

In this thread in the beta forum, players are discussing a recent buff to the Type 7 which gives is longer range than many other ships, including dedicated exploration ships:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/405802-Type-7-bye-bye-ASP

It's been brought up before, but this kind of blanket buff really negates the need/desire/reason of having different ship types. In this example, if the change sticks, a cargo ship will become one of the most desirable exploration ships. While it does mean there will finally be a good long-range cargo ship, it really does mean that other ship types are much less desirable in that role as a result.

Frontier had a great idea with the Military Slot, allowing extra shielding and hull reinforcement in combat vessels without sacrificing the general purpose slots. If they would go all the way and introduce dedicated slots for all the different ship types, they could buff ships directly toward their intended roles for players who want to pursue specific careers, while at the same time keeping the "general purpose" types of ships for those who want all-rounders.

Using the military slot as the model, introduce:

Explorer Slots: Include on AspX/DBX dedicated slots for exploration, one each for discovery scanners or detailed scanners, or a special suite that either increases range/decreases scan time without engineering, or a special computer suite that boosts the FSD range/optimum mass for long range trips.

Cargo Slots: A Lakon exclusive on the T6,7, 9 and Keelback. Basically an extra slot on each ship for another cargo bay matching the largest class slot available. (Kind of like the buff the T9 is getting, but only for cargo slots.) Add a smaller slot dedicated for limpet controllers only for collection/mining.

*Bonus for Haulers* - would take more doing, but introduce the Heavy Haul concept like in Euro Truck/American Truck Sims, where you move giant pre-fabricated equipment and materials so big and bulky that you can't fit them in the sleek "The Big 3" ships. Sure, your trade cutter can hold 700 tons, but good luck squeezing a planetary refinery in that long thin hull. Having Dedicated Cargo Slots would model the contiguous, cavernous spaces you'd expect in those big boxy Lakon hulls that could carry giant, one-piece machinery for big profits, and would give dedicated cargo ships a reason to exist. Be good for Wing Missions, too, where that big fat Type 9 hauling a pre-fabbed Coriolis component across 180 lightyears needs a fighter escort. Also good for salvage missions where you have to bring back the entire wreck of a ship from a "Combat Aftermath" USS. Or, even simulate the transport of smaller ships from station to station, like passenger missions but for space truckers. The possibilities are endless.

Maybe have Manufacturer Characteristics: Give each of the different ship brands something special that makes them, well, special. Lakon obviously knows cargo, maybe because of their design bureau, every cargo bay installed gets a 15% increase in capacity. Faulcon Delacy gets a base 10% boost in power output or distribution. Gutamaya ships get automatic docking authorization just because they look good. Things like this would help differentiate the ship types even mroe.

EDIT: Passenger hauling... Give the Dolphin, Orca and Beluga bonuses for fitting passenger bays, either less mass because of better dedicated fittings, or a small bonus to the number of passengers each cabin can hold on one of these dedicated ships.

The bottom line is that the more the ships are buffed, the less diversity there will be between the types and the less reason there will be for having them. By buffing ships by adding specific abilities (and not by penalizing other ships) there will be in-game reasons to fly certain types of ships and reward those who want to concentrate on a specific playstyle.

I think this would go a long way to giving the different classes and ships some much needed character. Would there be any downside?

EDIT 2:/TLDR Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting forcing people into specific roles and abandoning multirole ships. What I'm saying is that if the game touts a ship as an "Explorer" that it have benefits that make it appealing to Explorers. If I'm selling a line of cargo ships, they should have abilities that make Space Truckers want to buy them. If you want to play a particular career, the ships advertised to perform that role should be able to outperform the multirole ships in that role.

Of multirole ships are going to be the ultimate, just sell one spaceship frame that can be upgraded in size and purpose over time. You know, take it to an engineer and have him gradually upgrade your Sidey into a Conda. :D
 
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I sincerely hope to see, one day, 2 dedicated scanner slots on exploring ships. Don't forget the asp scout.

I agree with you, differenciation is a better call than buffing common statistics. It could be pushed further. passenger / cargo / military - other types of gameplay could be take in consideration !
 
I'm not really sure why many players want 2 dedicated exploration slots for asp/dbx, seems rather pointless to me since they already have plenty room to fit everything you need for exploration.

But I'm not too big a fan of going ham with dedicated slots to begin with, it just limites you for the sake of limiting you. If someone wants to build a combat T9 or whatever obscure build then let them. You can try to force ships in the roles all you want at the end of the day the anaconda is best in every role anyway :p
 
IMO it all depends on the direction Frontier takes with future development.

Are they going to focus on "ships" or "individuals"? (or a combination?)

If it's to be the ships themselves- then yes, the most logical course of action would be to expand "purpose" to the ships... by way of passive bonuses (slots being an option) and other things that enhance their performance in specific activities. This would be the course to follow if they wanted to avoid expanding into a profession-type system and keep activities as generic as possible so that everyone has the choice to "do what they want when they want to". The mission system, as it currently stands, is a good manifestation of how it works currently. You have a big board to choose multiple activities from- but you're not limited to certain types. You can choose a combat mission, a hauling mission (passenger and/or cargo) and a planetary scan and do all of them. You could choose a specific type of ship, gain passive bonuses that enhance a certain activity (hauling, etc.) then perform said activity. This would also mean multiroles would not have clear advantage over other specific ships (which is currently NOT the case... see Python/Anaconda)

if it's to be "individuals" (pilots) then the most logical course of action would be to make ships as "generic" as possible but then focus on giving the pilots themselves more "purpose". This would mean a "profession" system to follow, expanding to other styles of game play other than just hauling cargo, exploring the galaxy or shooting at other ships. This would be the avenue for "piracy", "bounty hunters", "merchants", "explorers/scientists" and other specific types of profession. This would mean ships would be "multirole" for the most part- and no ship would have definitive clear advantage over any others. (generic) The current mission system isn't currently set up for this. You're not limited in any way whatsoever nor do your choices give any clear advantage over others. So call yourself what you may- your only real "profession" is that of a space-pilot.

The biggest problem thus far is that we have a hybrid combination of the two, but "professions" are just activities, and the "focus" seems to be more on a specific activity so far.... combat. Hence combat ships being given more time and attention rather than other activities, which in turn has caused mass inconsistency within the rest of the game. Ships being given Mil-spec slots but nothing given to others is a clear imbalance because it gives those with a combat-specific style of game play clear advantage over others who don't focus on combat activities. It could be argued that they're all "defensive", but the only reason you'd need defense is if you're planning to engage with someone in the first place. Some ships were introduced with specific naming in mind as to the activity (Asp Explorer, for example) but the ship itself is more "multirole" than anything. And multiroles actually currently have clear definitive advantage in most regards over specific ships in numerous ways. (which is why you'll see Pythons and Anacondas being used most frequently).

We have the "setting". It's space. Now we just need the "purpose" to be more clearly defined and more importantly consistent. Balanced.

As to the ideas proposed in the OT- I agree with a lot of them, but I'm still waiting to see what FD's focus will actually be before I spend to much time advocating for them. I've proposed many of them in the past as well- specific slots for specific ships in particular, as it seems that was the direction FD wanted to go. Now I'm not so sure. For example, they've promised to give Exploration more love, we'll just have to see what manifestation that takes.

Sorry for the "wall of text" response- I usually don't do that because I'm not trying to "hijack" the thread, I just think there's a number of considerations that have to be made in this train of thought. It's much more complex than just tacking on a few bonuses to everything in terms of the "bigger picture". :)
 
The biggest downside is that, far from enabling players to make a choice, it strips choice away from players due to each ship being specialised into a particular role. Rather than an trader considering all the options from Faulcon Delacey, Lakon, Gutamaaya (admittedly, the Cutter does make the choice a bit pointless if you have access to it though) and Core Dynamics, they will be limited to only one set of ships. Similarly, explorers can currently use any ship with a reasonable amount of internal slots, a decent FSD and a sizeable slot of a fuel scoop, but limiting the decent explorer ships to a select few with dedicated slots would just cut down these options to a few ships rather than the majority in the game.

For this reason, specialist slots should be used to bring a ship up to spec in somewhere it is meant to be good in without it becoming completely broken in other roles. This was particularly evident on the big 3, as their military slots were added to improve combat performance but without overpowering them for hauling. That all being said, the Anaconda and the 'Vette could probably get away with their military slots being derestricted with the upcoming T9 buffs, as the T9 would still be able to notably outhaul them both even with the extra 64t of cargo.

The other issue at hand here is the issue of cost. More expensive ships should be better performing than cheaper ones, but as players can only use single ships at a time this inevitably leads to most ships being throwaway designs that are sold once the player can afford a better one. If FD were to implement ways of either using spare ships (NPC wingmen anyone?) or upgrading the underpowered ships at great expense to rival their competitors (such as adding in compact grade equipment which has the specs of an A-grade a class above but the price of an A-grade 2 classes above, or adding in some kind of "inefficient design" slots that can have stuff installed in them for a near-extortionate cost to raise performance).
 
I don't like the restricted internals at all as a specialization method.

Using the core class sizes, number and size of optionals, hardpoints, and utilities was always the way to go.
That plus the hidden stats like hull mass, mass lock factor, armour factor, heat profile, etc.
 
I'm not really sure why many players want 2 dedicated exploration slots for asp/dbx, seems rather pointless to me since they already have plenty room to fit everything you need for exploration.

Why were the military slots added to combat ships? To allow them to carry more combat oriented modules. This same reasoning is why it would be nice to get exploration slots added to exploration ships. Imagine a DBX with an additional two explorer specialized C2 slots, you’d then have a ship which could carry the following: ADS, DSS, AFMU, SRV, Shield, Fuel Scoop, Repair Limpet Controller, and a Cago Rack to hold the limpets.

That’s why it would be nice to have exploration slots added to exploration ships.

As for the T-7 suddenly challenging the magical Anaconda for most capable explorer in the game, this is so out of left field. It feels like a mistake or a bug, but if it stays then I’d love to see the hull mass of both the Asp X and DBX lowered to make their ranges more competitive with the T-7 and Anaconda. The two ships with “Explorer” in their names should really be top of the field for jump range and not third and fourth place IMHO.
 
I don't like the restricted internals at all as a specialization method.

Using the core class sizes, number and size of optionals, hardpoints, and utilities was always the way to go.
That plus the hidden stats like hull mass, mass lock factor, armour factor, heat profile, etc.

Just to clarify, I don't think restriction is a good idea any more than a blanket buff. I'm talking about giving ships that are supposedly built for a particular role design advantages that justify that role. If the game touts a ship as an "Explorer" that it have benefits that make it appealing to Explorers. Cargo ships with abilities that make Space Truckers want to buy them. If you want to play a particular career, the ships advertised to perform that role should be able to outperform the multirole ships in that role. But if you want to take an empty hull and fit it out to your purposes, more power to you. Just don't expect your jack-of-all-trades ship with cargo modules to outhaul a "top of the line" cargo ship. (The recent T9 buff being a good example.)

Otherwise, they might as well just sell one spaceship frame that can be upgraded in size and purpose over time. You know, take it to an engineer and have him gradually upgrade your Sidey into a Conda. :D
 
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Why were the military slots added to combat ships? To allow them to carry more combat oriented modules. This same reasoning is why it would be nice to get exploration slots added to exploration ships. Imagine a DBX with an additional two explorer specialized C2 slots, you’d then have a ship which could carry the following: ADS, DSS, AFMU, SRV, Shield, Fuel Scoop, Repair Limpet Controller, and a Cago Rack to hold the limpets.

That’s why it would be nice to have exploration slots added to exploration ships.

As for the T-7 suddenly challenging the magical Anaconda for most capable explorer in the game, this is so out of left field. It feels like a mistake or a bug, but if it stays then I’d love to see the hull mass of both the Asp X and DBX lowered to make their ranges more competitive with the T-7 and Anaconda. The two ships with “Explorer” in their names should really be top of the field for jump range and not third and fourth place IMHO.

Pretty much. I love my Asp X, but it's become pretty hard to justify keeping her with much better options out there now.
 
Why were the military slots added to combat ships? To allow them to carry more combat oriented modules. This same reasoning is why it would be nice to get exploration slots added to exploration ships. Imagine a DBX with an additional two explorer specialized C2 slots, you’d then have a ship which could carry the following: ADS, DSS, AFMU, SRV, Shield, Fuel Scoop, Repair Limpet Controller, and a Cago Rack to hold the limpets.

That’s why it would be nice to have exploration slots added to exploration ships.

As for the T-7 suddenly challenging the magical Anaconda for most capable explorer in the game, this is so out of left field. It feels like a mistake or a bug, but if it stays then I’d love to see the hull mass of both the Asp X and DBX lowered to make their ranges more competitive with the T-7 and Anaconda. The two ships with “Explorer” in their names should really be top of the field for jump range and not third and fourth place IMHO.
I'm not really sure why repiar limpets are classified as explorer equipment, even if someone somehow manges to need a hull repair you can call someone to come repair you.

But really, after a lot of exploring done the past few years I can't think of any moment where I would had use for repair limpets ^^
 
I'm not really sure why repiar limpets are classified as explorer equipment, even if someone somehow manges to need a hull repair you can call someone to come repair you.

But really, after a lot of exploring done the past few years I can't think of any moment where I would had use for repair limpets ^^

I can personnally think of many !
 
Yet people want to call for changes to make combat ships better exploration vessels. While they are at it, completely ignoring the fact that the Anaconda already makes everything else "obsolete" for Exploration.
 
I'm not really sure why many players want 2 dedicated exploration slots for asp/dbx, seems rather pointless to me since they already have plenty room to fit everything you need for exploration.

But I'm not too big a fan of going ham with dedicated slots to begin with, it just limites you for the sake of limiting you. If someone wants to build a combat T9 or whatever obscure build then let them. You can try to force ships in the roles all you want at the end of the day the anaconda is best in every role anyway :p

The reason some (many) people had rather explore in a slow anaconda with a canopy that ruins half the view is precisely because they don't feel like they have everything they need for a long trip with 6 to 7 slots.If you even go beyond the double AFMU, + srv, etc, I'm one of those who need more than just basic exploring equipment. The longer I can explore without being bored, the longer I can explore. That means I like to carry cargo for possible recovery, fuel transfer limpets may I be close to one stranded cmdr, and now hull repair limpets...

I also used to plan long range Exploring/mining trips in my conda, to each their own really.
 
Yet people want to call for changes to make combat ships better exploration vessels. While they are at it, completely ignoring the fact that the Anaconda already makes everything else "obsolete" for Exploration.

not everyone wants the slow closed window to the universe, when you're going to spend all your time in supercruise.
Who asked for combat ships to be better exploration vessels ?

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sorry for double post, thought it would merge
 
Yet people want to call for changes to make combat ships better exploration vessels. While they are at it, completely ignoring the fact that the Anaconda already makes everything else "obsolete" for Exploration.
I explored to colonia in my Anaconda - I will never do that garbage again. The yaw, canopy view and landing footprint really grated on me until I started contemplating self-destruction.
 
anyway, what's up with :

1. Diversity ? having more than one ultimate ship for a role, but several approximately equal dedicated solutions ?
2. the raising of shields against... dedicated scanner/exploring slots ? it's not like the certified presence of scanners in 3 to 4 ships (ASP X, ASP S, DBS, DBX ?) would kill the balance of ships ? it's not like adding a lot more cargo to them, or making them much more resistant (would free up 1 or 2 size one/two slots...) ? it will just be able to scan things on any given situation - does that give players cold sweat?


I'm a bit confused, must be me...
 
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not everyone wants the slow closed window to the universe, when you're going to spend all your time in supercruise.
Who asked for combat ships to be better exploration vessels ?

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sorry for double post, thought it would merge

Other people in other threads. The latest was for the Chieftain.

I explored to colonia in my Anaconda - I will never do that garbage again. The yaw, canopy view and landing footprint really grated on me until I started contemplating self-destruction.

Doesn't that mean that jump range isn't the sole measure for exploration and that the changes to the T7 don't suddenly make the Asp obsolete? Crazy talk.
 
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