General / Off-Topic Recycle or Die! (the elite environmental thread)

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As the USA starts the process of pulling out of the Paris Agreement:

'Existing Paris climate pledges commit sea level rise to ‘one metre by 2300’:




So yeah, sell that water front property pronto.
Pronto? You're going to start panicking 280 years in advance? Have you verified this with other sources?
 
That is a really good question Jason! (y) I think I know the answer to that, but I'd like to think some more about it, instead of just giving the automated answer I normally would. I'm something of a misanthrope, which kind of supports what you say. The best example of something that really moved me regarding all this, was the story about Akila:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gBKaBzR8U0


Regarding ethics in general: Since I would normally find the back of an envelope and a pen and start doing calculations, if something puzzled me, I was a strong advocate for utilitarianism for some time, but there's not a whole lot of room for the individual. Strictly speaking, from a utilitarian standpoint, we should just kill 6 billion people. Then the remaining survivors would be much better of. I'm pretty sure that thought is as horrible sounding to you as it is to me. The thing about utilitarianism is that it's all or nothing. You cannot believe in some sort of ethical theory, and then say it doesn't work in all cases. Then it's better to dismiss utilitarianism completely and come up with something better, and since I'm not a believer, I cannot just look it up in a book. That leaves me with good old gut feeling and common sense, which both have limitations.
Population reduction, aka eugenics is not a new idea, this modern Stonehenge was erected in 1980.
Quote: "1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature." (roughly 95% cull)

What might help you significantly more in the short term, is turn off the TV and its biased propaganda.
 
Population reduction, aka eugenics is not a new idea, this modern Stonehenge was erected in 1980.
Quote: "1. Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature." (roughly 95% cull)

What might help you significantly more in the short term, is turn off the TV and its biased propaganda.
Eugenics is not population reduction. It's is a misunderstood version of Darwin, where some people believe that it would be a good idea to control the genome of the human species, modifying it, thereby creating "better" humans. Aka "racial hygiene". Before humans became able to modify DNA that was mostly practiced by killing humans that didn't fit the "plan", and let the rest breed as much as possible. Most people (including me) find that idea disgusting.

I do not have a TV ;)
 
The knowledge about the mechanism of photosynthesis is very common, and so is the logic behind limiting factors. Look it up yourself if you wan't to know more about it.
I did, and I provided links to the currently accepted scientific "consensus" typically found on wikipedia.
The Canada link describes green houses. The conditions for a plant in a green house is very different from the average wheat plant on the average acre of farmland, somewhere on the planet. You don't build a green house while lacking water, but that is the case for many farmers around the globe.
And photosynthesis still works in much the same way, increased CO2 reduces the water requirement.
Perpetual motion is not possible. That is due to the laws of Thermodynamics:

And you've done nothing here but prove my point on the competitive reluctance to research and develop alternative energy harnessing technologies. (Q) academia was still claiming heavier than air vehicles would never fly several years after the Wright brothers had proven them catastrophically wrong, again.
Regarding the patent: You don't even have to have a working proof of concept, to get a patent (AFAIR). Generally I think patents are a stupid concept, which is not to the benefit of humanity as a whole, but then we're kind of back to utilitarianism.
For once, actually click and read the link: USPTO FAQ: Quote: "What can and cannot be patented?"
"Inventions which are: Not useful (such as perpetual motion machines)"
In other words, don't even bother applying because we, the innovation gatekeepers say it's impossible.

I'm inclined to agree that the patent system actually hinders innovation. The better question is, WHY?
 
Eugenics is not population reduction. It's is a misunderstood version of Darwin, where some people believe that it would be a good idea to control the genome of the human species, modifying it, thereby creating "better" humans. Aka "racial hygiene". Before humans became able to modify DNA that was mostly practiced by killing humans that didn't fit the "plan", and let the rest breed as much as possible. Most people (including me) find that idea disgusting.

I do not have a TV ;)
Then why do you insist on watching "NEWS" from only one side of the argument. Try a balanced diet.
 
I did, and I provided links to the currently accepted scientific "consensus" typically found on wikipedia.

And photosynthesis still works in much the same way, increased CO2 reduces the water requirement.

And you've done nothing here but prove my point on the competitive reluctance to research and develop alternative energy harnessing technologies. (Q) academia was still claiming heavier than air vehicles would never fly several years after the Wright brothers had proven them catastrophically wrong, again.

For once, actually click and read the link: USPTO FAQ: Quote: "What can and cannot be patented?"
"Inventions which are: Not useful (such as perpetual motion machines)"
In other words, don't even bother applying because we, the innovation gatekeepers say it's impossible.

I'm inclined to agree that the patent system actually hinders innovation. The better question is, WHY?
Did you read my link about why perpetual motion is impossible? The Law of Conservation of Energy states:

"The total energy of an isolated system remains constant"

Said in another way:

Energy cannot emerge from nothing.

That is the reason why the patent system doesn't want to spend time reading about it, but you can be absolutely 100.0% sure that if you could actually demonstrate perpetual motion that worked, they would become quite ecstatic, an they would definitely love to see it. I would! :) It's sad, but it can't be done. It's not like getting something to fly. It's like getting something to fly faster than the speed of light. You probably can't patent that either.

Edit: Even though I'm not an american I still read american news sites, and I try to read both sides, from MSNBC to Fox News. That is part of trying to figure out which sources are reliable. I also read Guardian and The Daily Whale, RT, Al Jazeera, Forbes, WSJ and Times of India just to name a few.

Which ones do you read?
 
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Did you read my link about why perpetual motion is impossible? The Law of Conservation of Energy states:

"The total energy of an isolated system remains constant"

Said in another way:

Energy cannot emerge from nothing.

That is the reason why the patent system doesn't want to spend time reading about it, but you can be absolutely 100.0% sure that if you could actually demonstrate perpetual motion that worked, they would become quite ecstatic, an they would definitely love to see it. I would! :) It's sad, but it can't be done. It's not like getting something to fly. It's like getting something to fly faster than the speed of light. You probably can't patent that either.

Edit: Even though I'm not an american I still read american news sites, and I try to read both sides, from MSNBC to Fox News. That is part of trying to figure out which sources are reliable. I also read Guardian and The Daily Whale, RT, Al Jazeera, Forbes, WSJ and Times of India just to name a few.

Which ones do you read?
It claims much the same as the wikipedia link I posted, that over unity is impossible with current thinking. To examine the lesser known or publicised advances in thinking it's worth hunting for those that have not been accepted as dogmatic gospel, yet, and aren't pushed on the emotional victims of click bait outrage.

The human herd is big, too big to just stand behind it, clap your hands and expect it to move as directed.
 
It claims much the same as the wikipedia link I posted, that over unity is impossible with current thinking. To examine the lesser known or publicised advances in thinking it's worth hunting for those that have not been accepted as dogmatic gospel, yet, and aren't pushed on the emotional victims of click bait outrage.

The human herd is big, too big to just stand behind it, clap your hands and expect it to move as directed.
Look, I would jump around screaming yee-haw right now, if someone had invented perpetual motion / "over unity". Nobody has been able to demonstrate such a thingy, because thermodynamics tells us that it is not possible. Anyone can make a Youtube video showing some sort of fraud that seems to work, but they have only proven their "concept" once it has been scrutinized by others, and that does not happen. Furthermore they would have to explain how it works, which they don't because that would contradict physics. It's a fraud, and in most cases it's an attempt to make people buy something that does not work, or raise money through crowd funding.


There is a flow of energy going through the system we call Earth. The energy comes from the Sun and leaves in the form of heat. Tapping into that energy flow is possible, and it does not contradict physics. It is physics that has taught us what energy is and it's physics that has taught us how to extract energy from the Sun.
 
Look, I would jump around screaming yee-haw right now, if someone had invented perpetual motion / "over unity". Nobody has been able to demonstrate such a thingy, because thermodynamics tells us that it is not possible. Anyone can make a Youtube video showing some sort of fraud that seems to work, but they have only proven their "concept" once it has been scrutinized by others, and that does not happen. Furthermore they would have to explain how it works, which they don't because that would contradict physics. It's a fraud, and in most cases it's an attempt to make people buy something that does not work, or raise money through crowd funding.


There is a flow of energy going through the system we call Earth. The energy comes from the Sun and leaves in the form of heat. Tapping into that energy flow is possible, and it does not contradict physics. It is physics that has taught us what energy is and it's physics that has taught us how to extract energy from the Sun.
Ok, since you appear to prefer looking backwards, instead of forwards, consider the wheel, the bow and arrow, agriculture, architecture, mining, medicine, the heliocentric model of the Solar system, steam, electricity, ballistics, incandescent light globes, the internal combustion engine, plate tectonics, etc...

Things that were declared impossible, either because current thinking was limited by someone claiming or enforcing the resistance to change because it would disrupt their currently profitable business model or because it might offend the gods and condemn the people of the world to catastrophe and often both.

Bringing a disruptive technology to market requires TWO things: 1. Someone able to conceive and build a prototype that works, which they often want to give away for free since they appreciate the idea wasn't really theirs and 2. Someone willing to fund and champion said product in the face of "market" resistance.

It is very rare that the individuals in point 1. and 2. are one and the same. Inventors are typically not very business savvy, while shrewd capitalists aren't very creative, which is why they invest money hiring in those attributes and funding risky R&D projects that might provide a leading edge over their competitors.

Over-unity is a slightly different proposal. If and when it's perfected it is going to pose a massive threat to one of the largest and most aggressively protective industries on the planet. One that prefers you continue drawing energy from their metered grid and fuel from their metered pumps, on threat of military action.

It may have escaped you that the military is one of the largest single groups of consumers when it comes to fossil fuels, energy, single use and disposable technology to maintain its advantage over the perceived enemy so if the US Navy is now able to file patents for over-unity devices, what does that suggest to you?

If it was still "impossible" the patent office would have simply rejected it as such, but they did not. Why?
 
Ah the classic "we got it wrong on ancient times, thus, we probably are wrong ATM" thinking, two issues:

1 - Knowledge before the scientific method emerged was mostly based on philosophy and dogma, i.e., not well founded.

2 - Thermodinamical knowledge is and has been used for over a century now, also, it is the basis of all sorts of physical theories which again, are the basis of a good chunk of the modern world.
 
Ah the classic "we got it wrong on ancient times, thus, we probably are wrong ATM" thinking, two issues:

1 - Knowledge before the scientific method emerged was mostly based on philosophy and dogma, i.e., not well founded.

2 - Thermodinamical knowledge is and has been used for over a century now, also, it is the basis of all sorts of physical theories which again, are the basis of a good chunk of the modern world.
You're not casting a particularly effective spell there sunshine. Theories are great, until they're obsoleted.
 
You're not casting a particularly effective spell there sunshine. Theories are great, until they're obsoleted.

Obsolete != wrong which is what matters here, if there was a theory that superseeded thermodynamics (good luck with that), that'd not imply in the slightest that it was or is wrong which is what you need to do these silly perpetual motion machines.
 
Obsolete != wrong which is what matters here, if there was a theory that superseeded thermodynamics (good luck with that), that'd not imply in the slightest that it was or is wrong which is what you need to do these silly perpetual motion machines.
Ok, lets take a relatively simple idea, reportedly invented circa 200 BC, the Aeolipile or earliest known example of a steam engine. As you can see, if you read the links, it didn't gain much traction as a useful technology until roughly two thousand years later during the industrial revolution and its still in use today.

Two centuries after the term "Luddite" appeared, to label those who feared for the security of their jobs and smashed the steam driven industrial machines to counter the "fraudulent and deceitful manner" of obsoleting their knowledge, we still use gas, coal or nuclear fired steam turbines to generate 80-90% of electricity.

The difference? Was there money in it? When there is more profit in over-unity than steam, guess what!

Obsolete does not mean wrong. Please, no seriously, PLEASE click the links and get up to 2019 speed.
 
Ok, lets take a relatively simple idea, reportedly invented circa 200 BC, the Aeolipile or earliest known example of a steam engine. As you can see, if you read the links, it didn't gain much traction as a useful technology until roughly two thousand years later during the industrial revolution and its still in use today.

Two centuries after the term "Luddite" appeared, to label those who feared for the security of their jobs and smashed the steam driven industrial machines to counter the "fraudulent and deceitful manner" of obsoleting their knowledge, we still use gas, coal or nuclear fired steam turbines to generate 80-90% of electricity.

The difference? Was there money in it? When there is more profit in over-unity than steam, guess what!

Obsolete does not mean wrong. Please, no seriously, PLEASE click the links and get up to 2019 speed.

Your example have nothing to do with my statement and even if they did, it'd be irrelevant as I'm not claiming an implication, I'm claiming a lack of implication.
 
Your example have nothing to do with my statement and even if they did, it'd be irrelevant as I'm not claiming an implication, I'm claiming a lack of implication.
Say what now? Was that in English or are you just so emotionally distraught you can't type straight?

Tell you what, let's make it easy for you. Just read the "Luddite" link. If you can cope with that, beware.
 
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Say what now? Was that in English or are you just so emotionally distraught you can't type straight?

That was an english sentence trying to teach logic to someone who clearly lacks it.

Tell you what, let's make it easy for you. Just read the "Luddite" link. If you can cope with that, beware.

Tell you what, post something relevant for me to read before asking me to read it.
 
That was an english sentence trying to teach logic to someone who clearly lacks it.



Tell you what, post something relevant for me to read before asking me to read it.
The speed at which you're responding indicates you're not reading the links. It suggests a knee-jerk reaction to something you don't like, and are probably getting angry about, making you even easier to manipulate. How would you know if it is or isn't relevant to your behaviour if you don't go and read it?

It also seems you're ignoring the golden rule: "They who hath the gold, make the rules!"

Logic would dictate there's little point investing money in something that isn't going to make more profit than what you're already doing, even if its not particularly efficient, and is making a mess of the planet. If you want to continue up and cross selling your product, make it consumable, finite and exclusive.

J.P. Morgan is said to have withdrawn funding from Nikola Tesla because you can't put a meter on free.
 
The speed at which you're responding indicates you're not reading the links. It suggests a knee-jerk reaction to something you don't like, and are probably getting angry about, making you even easier to manipulate. How would you know if it is or isn't relevant to your behaviour if you don't go and read it?

You can read a title to deduce if it's relevant or not, hint, we are talking about science and it's confidence, not about protests and social fear.

It also seems you're ignoring the golden rule: "They who hath the gold, make the rules!"

You are falsly equivocating "rule" as in a law in a country with a "rule" as in a physical rule. Your quote uses the first definition of "rule" not the second, hence, you are talking bonkers.

Logic would dictate there's little point investing money in something that isn't going to make more profit than what you're already doing, even if its not particularly efficient, and is making a mess of the planet. If you want to continue up and cross selling your product, make it consumable, finite and exclusive.

And how's that relevant to a physical law? They are not a product and they are priceless (because they cannot be sold or bought and they aren't copyrighted).

J.P. Morgan is said to have withdrawn funding from Nikola Tesla because you can't put a meter on free.

What does that even mean? That when something is worth $0 it can't be quantified (which is false)?

At this point you are rambling about topics not relevant to what I had said, non sequitur at it's finest.
 
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