General / Off-Topic Recycle or Die! (the elite environmental thread)

[Rob At Work]

Has any one seen the reports on the record shifts in the magnetic poles. Surely this will have more to do with climate change that a few plastic bags or anything we humans can or cannot influence??

PS I am in agreement with recycling from an efficiency of resources point of view.

EDIT: Wikipedia

The North Magnetic Pole moves over time due to magnetic changes in Earth's core.[1] In 2001, it was determined by the Geological Survey of Canada to lie west of Ellesmere Island in northern Canada at 81.3°N 110.8°W.[2] It was situated at 83.1°N 117.8°W in 2005. In 2009, while still situated within the Canadian Arctic at 84.9°N 131.0°W,[3] it was moving toward Russia at between 55 and 60 kilometres (34 and 37 mi) per year.[4] As of 2019, the pole is projected to have moved beyond the Canadian Arctic to 86.448°N 175.346°E.[5][3]

The Canadian government has made several measurements, which show that the North Magnetic Pole is moving continually northwestward. In 2001, an expedition located the pole at 81.3°N 110.8°W. In 2007, the latest survey found the pole at 83.95°N 120.72°W.[13] During the 20th century it moved 1100 km, and since 1970 its rate of motion has accelerated from 9 km/year to approximately 52 km/year (2001–2007 average

 

[jasonbarron]

Has any one seen the reports on the record shifts in the magnetic poles. Surely this will have more to do with climate change that a few plastic bags or anything we humans can or cannot influence??

Yeah, very ominous stuff. Do you have any links to journals/articles on the subject? I'd love to read them if so.

 

[Morbad]

Has any one seen the reports on the record shifts in the magnetic poles.

Do you mean historical human record, or geological record?

Geomagnetic reversals occur relatively frequently on geological time scales, but the one we may to be heading into now would be the first in human history. Last full reversal was 780k years ago, while the last excursion was 40k years ago.

Surely this will have more to do with climate change that a few plastic bags or anything we humans can or cannot influence??

Climate effects from the period of reduced magnetic field strength will likely be minimal, and almost certainly not remotely comparable to what we're doing.

 

[Rob At Work]

Do you mean historical human record, or geological record?

Geomagnetic reversals occur relatively frequently on geological time scales, but the one we appear to be heading into now would be the first in human history. Last full reversal was 780k years ago.



Climate effects from the period of reduced magnetic field strength will likely be minimal, and almost certainly not remotely comparable to what we're doing.

Agreed, but it's no coincidence that the shift in poles is accelerating and in my life time there is, a noticeable shift in weather (some extreme) patterns. Of course over the lifetime of the planet this could just be a blip (as was the Ice age). I am convinced that if we have damaged the planet mother nature will ultimately repair it with or without our assistance. It is possible that extreme weather (more rain) is mother nature repairing at the moment (trees grow faster etc..)

Recycling is a great idea for resource efficiency but lack of it, is unlikely to kill the planet; us maybe, but not the planet.

 

[Morbad]

Do you have any links to journals/articles on the subject?

Geomagnetic reversal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NASA

NASA.gov brings you the latest news, images and videos from America's space agency, pioneering the future in space exploration, scientific discovery and aeronautics research.

www.nasa.gov

No, We’re Not All Doomed by Earth’s Magnetic Field Flip

A geomagnetic apocalypse may not be on the horizon, but there is some fascinating science behind the doomsday hype.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Earth's Magnetic Field Reversal Took Three Times Longer Than Thought

A new study suggests the last field reversal 773,000 years ago took 22,000 years to occur, which could explain some of the inner workings of our planet’s core

www.scientificamerican.com

World Magnetic Model Out-of-Cycle Release

Due to changes in Earth’s magnetic field, NCEI has released an out-of-cycle World Magnetic Model to ensure safe navigation.

www.ncei.noaa.gov

Earth’s magnetic field is acting up and geologists don’t know why

Erratic motion of north magnetic pole forces experts to update model that aids global navigation.

www.nature.com

Agreed, but it's no coincidence that the shift in poles is accelerating and in my life time there is, a noticeable shift in weather (some extreme) patterns.

No, that is very likely coincidental.

An unexpectedly rapid and severe reduction in magnetic field strength could result in a lot of damage to satellites and power grids, but wouldn't have much effect on climate or weather.

There are certainly some hypothetical mechanisms for significant climatic interaction, but the general consensus is currently that it's not likely to be a significant factor in observed climate change.

 

[znôrt]

I am convinced that if we have damaged the planet mother nature will ultimately repair it with or without our assistance.

can't argue otherwise, but why are you so sure?

pollution rate isn't going to change anytime soon. it's a big fuss now, but what is really done about it? it's getting worse, and i expect it to get much worse in the next decades. it will probably have a high cost in human life, that will prompt for far reaching changes in the civilization and society that survives. if those will be enough to self regulate and reach an equilibrium is anybody's guess. in such a scenario i wonder how you could rule out a runaway effect past some tipping point that makes complex life impossible at all ... maybe even 'forever'.

then it all boils down on what you consider 'mother nature'. do bacteria count?

 

[jasonbarron]

Of course it's "coincidental." There's no way to hang the blame on evil greedy over consumers.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Has any one seen the reports on the record shifts in the magnetic poles. Surely this will have more to do with climate change that a few plastic bags or anything we humans can or cannot influence??

Yes, I knew the magnetic poles are moving faster than normal, I'll remind you that the climate has been changing well before these shifts so no causal relationship is possible.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Of course it's "coincidental." There's no way to hang the blame on evil greedy over consumers.

Actually, it's not even possible as these shifts happened after climate change begun as oposed to decades on research agreeing there is a causal relationship between CO2 emissions and climate change but nevermind, we don't have to disprove your theory, you need to prove it's sound in the first place.

 

[Morbad]

Actually, it's not even possible as these shifts happened after climate change begun as oposed to decades on research agreeing there is a causal relationship between CO2 emissions and climate change but nevermind, we don't have to disprove your theory, you need to prove it's sound in the first place.

These shifts started centuries ago, but haven't accelerated until much more recently.

The main issue with trying to pin climate change on them is the fact that proposed mechanisms of causation are not well understood and may not pan out. The atmosphere is not ferrous and the charged particles that a weakened magnetic field allows through cannot cause the changes we've observed.

There are numerous layers of far more robust correlation and, just as importantly, demonstrable mechanisms of causation, for the anthropogenic sources that have conclusively been linked to climate change.

As it stands, pinning climate change on a magnetic field excursion is almost as unfounded as pinning it on the decline of high-seas piracy in North America over the last few hundred years.

 

[jasonbarron]

Actually, it's not even possible as these shifts happened after climate change begun as oposed to decades on research agreeing there is a causal relationship between CO2 emissions and climate change but nevermind, we don't have to disprove your theory, you need to prove it's sound in the first place.

Prove what? Surely my skepticism about the people who disseminate scientific reports and their self serving motivations are thoroughly documented?

Gregg, instead of leaping to false conclusions, perhaps take a minute to digest my point. You could always ask for clarification on a point that I wasn't clear enough about.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Climate effects from the period of reduced magnetic field strength will likely be minimal, and almost certainly not remotely comparable to what we're doing.

Yes I liked the phrase "a few plastic bags", when we see that there are layers of plastic floating on the oceans, and whose the surface is equivalent to that of a continent.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

Prove what?

That magnetic shifts are part or the main cause of climate change.

Surely my skepticism about the people who disseminate scientific reports and their self serving motivations are thoroughly documented?

Yes, and that's a problem as they know better than you and me so we have to trust them or become scientist yourself.

Gregg, instead of leaping to false conclusions

What false conclusion?

perhaps take a minute to digest my point. You could always ask for clarification on a point that I wasn't clear enough about.

I'm sure you implied or explicitly stated a relationship between magnetic shifts and climate change which is exactly what I tackled.

 

[Shinji Ikari]

These shifts started centuries ago, but haven't accelerated until much more recently.

I did know the magnetic poles shifted well before climate change but I always assumed it was normal, i.e., it always happened.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Like it or not, we depend on the environment.

We depend on our environment, but the post I reacted to it has nothing to do with it.

You should forget your youth and your moments of confusion.

Maybe you are consuming things that do not allow you to visualize properly ?

We talk about serious things between adults here.

Adults don't post "A species destined to disappear, for the greater good of the planet without a doubt ".

 

[Patrick_68000]

Adults don't post "A species destined to disappear, for the greater good of the planet without a doubt ".

Indeed, if the humanity does not change its behavior, it is doomed to disappear for the benefit of the planet that will see the extinction of its greatest predator.

But only an adult can understand. Irresponsible young people can not yet, like some adults who have not grown up yet.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The New York authorities on Thursday 12 September gave their blessing to the students who want to miss school to participate in the big climate protest planned for 20 September, led by the young Swedish girl Greta Thunberg.

Excellent news here for Jason, who is American and who will see once again that there are very educated Americans who are aware of climate issues, for the greater benefit of the great America.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The young American singer Billie Eilish, one of the revelations of the year, called on her millions of fans to participate in the climate protests on September 20th and 27th, a message supported by a new black video on climate change.

"Currently, millions of people around the world beg our leaders to pay attention," writes the teen idol. "Our planet is warming at an unprecedented rate, the ice caps are melting, our oceans are rising, our wildlife is poisoned and our forests are burning," she says.

Jason can be proud of his country the Great America, whose the intelligent elite are aware of the climate problems related to the human activities.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Indeed, if the humanity does not change its behavior, it is doomed to disappear for the benefit of the planet that will see the extinction of its greatest predator.

But only an adult can understand. Irresponsible young people can not yet, like some adults who have not grown up yet.

The planet itself is a lifeless rock that we cannot harm, so that is a hippy nonsense already.
The biosphere has seen much worse than what we are doing (actually we could not exterminate life even if we wanted to), and anyways, life on Earth is past its zenith and in 500 million years will vanish unless it can take off this planet. The survival of humanity is the best bet of the long term survival of life, as anywhere we go, we need to take part of the biosphere with us.

Can we possibly skip this "I have no children, responsible ADULT friend of mother Gaia and let humans disappear" bit from this discussion?

 

[sewerratuk]

.... Irresponsible young people can not yet, like some adults who have not grown up been indoctrinated yet.

Or perhaps that