Relative mouse ON on FA-OFF vs HOTAS

Madrax573

Madrax573
Aris_ said:
Lmao

roll is needed because is a higher turning rate change of direction combined with pitch even in space thus being made by biased m/k irrelevant due to high speed faoff

elementary flight mechanics
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10 years in the air force. I'm down with flight mechanics.

I don't roll anywhere near as much in FA-off as I did when I flew with FA-on. This is not atmospheric flight. Roll is way less important than knowing your vector and speed and being able to change either or both in the most efficient manner.

Which has nothing to do with the control method only the skill of the pilot. Not biased towards KB+M. I would love to have a HOTAS tbh but it just wouldn't work for my current situation thats all.
 

Aris_

Aris_
Madrax573 said:
10 years in the air force. I'm down with flight mechanics.

I don't roll anywhere near as much in FA-off as I did when I flew with FA-on. This is not atmospheric flight. Roll is way less important than knowing your vector and speed and being able to change either or both in the most efficient manner.

Which has nothing to do with the control method only the skill of the pilot. Not biased towards KB+M. I would love to have a HOTAS tbh but it just wouldn't work for my current situation thats all.
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Efficient is using to a degree your max rate in all axis -this is maneuvering eg. full deflection either in space or in atmo ; so i don't see the argument having an option in k/m that counteracts the corrections you have to do by yourself thus letting you to point and shoot in faoff is a big crunch and biased towards one input method period

ED is a sim. not a point and click k/m arcade so joystick/hotas should have an advantage not a handicap.
 
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Madrax573

Madrax573
Aris_ said:
Efficient is using to a degree your max rate in all axis -this is maneuvering eg. full deflection either in space or in atmo ; so i don't see the argument having an option in k/m that counteracts the corrections you have to do by yourself thus letting you to point and shoot in faoff is a big crunch and biased towards one input method period

ED is a sim. not a point and click k/m arcade so joystick/hotas should have an advantage not a handicap.
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Again you are not reading what I originally said.

Relative mouse doesn't counteract anything. All it does is re-centre your input to emulate joystick return to centre. It's really very simple.
And no HOTAS shouldn't have an advantage.
 

Bunkerkind Anni

Bunkerkind Anni
Aris_ said:
Efficient is using to a degree your max rate in all axis -this is maneuvering eg. full deflection either in space or in atmo ; so i don't see the argument having an option in k/m that counteracts the corrections you have to do by yourself thus letting you to point and shoot in faoff is a big crunch and biased towards one input method period

ED is a sim. not a point and click k/m arcade so joystick/hotas should have an advantage not a handicap.
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as the previous poster said -
auto-center does no auto-counter any movement you do, its just like letting go of your stick.

if you think mouse input makes a whole axis unimportant... why then you use it on the joystick to begin with?
open your options, remap joy-x to yaw, and roll to joy-z

BAM you are on the same control axis as m+k user

second - go to your joystick setup and make the control curve different, so you can do the same miniscule adjustments that you can see on that YT-video you have linked,
 

Aris_

Aris_
Bunkerkind Anni said:
as the previous poster said -
auto-center does no auto-counter any movement you do, its just like letting go of your stick.

if you think mouse input makes a whole axis unimportant... why then you use it on the joystick to begin with?
open your options, remap joy-x to yaw, and roll to joy-z

BAM you are on the same control axis as m+k user

second - go to your joystick setup and make the control curve different, so you can do the same miniscule adjustments that you can see on that YT-video you have linked,
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Madrax573 said:
Again you are not reading what I originally said.

Relative mouse doesn't counteract anything. All it does is re-centre your input to emulate joystick return to centre. It's really very simple.
And no HOTAS shouldn't have an advantage.
Click to expand...

when i move my joy i have to make a travel pass the center to counteract were the mouse is stop auto re-center (otherwise manually center mouse ) then counter even by travel time is OP

if you have flown full faoff with mouse and hotas you should know the difference all the top pvp players use it cause is biased

Is really simple watch the numerous videos i have posted and try to do the same with hotas then post your video so we will be enlighten "without auto center scripts"
 
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Madrax573

Madrax573
Aris_ said:
when i move my joy i have to make a travel pass the center to counteract were the mouse is stop auto re-center (otherwise manually center mouse ) then counter even by travel time is OP

if you have flown full faoff with mouse and hotas you should know the difference all the top pvp players use it cause is biased

Is really simple watch the numerous videos i have posted and try to do the same with hotas then post your video so we will be enlighten "without auto center scripts"
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So when you you let go of your joystick it does not automatically return to centre? Sounds like you need a new joystick.

I also have to keep 'travelling' past centre to input opposite thrust to stop my original movement. sounds like you are getting confused.
 

Bunkerkind Anni

Bunkerkind Anni
the fun thing is,
i know exactly what Aris_ and the OP are talking about and what their issue is...
but as long as they do not find the words to describe it without hyperbole and wrong facts, i am on the "everything is totally fine" side,
because it still sounds like a lack of skill or calibration or both..
 

Aris_

Aris_
Madrax573 said:
So when you you let go of your joystick it does not automatically return to centre? Sounds like you need a new joystick.

I also have to keep 'travelling' past centre to input opposite thrust to stop my original movement. sounds like you are getting confused.
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Bunkerkind Anni said:
the fun thing is,
i know exactly what Aris_ and the OP are talking about and what their issue is...
but as long as they do not find the words to describe it without hyperbole and wrong facts, i am on the "everything is totally fine" side,
because it still sounds like a lack of skill or calibration or both..
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opinions opinions opinions

You can provide your personal video to demonstrate your views and abilities matching the one i posted ,your knowledge will be welcomed, so where they are ?

This goes to FDev if they read this thread , please include the suggested hotas configurations to match m/k relative on full faoff precision as depicted on posted video
 
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Madrax573

Madrax573
I have a video on YT (link in sig) that describes my setup completely. With over lay and everything. I even put the mouse widget on for extra clarity (I don't use it normally as it doesn't help me fly whatsoever).

The group I fly with are all FA-off pilots and have various different control methods among them. HOTAS, Dual stick, KB+M, Steam controller, Heck one guy even uses a joystick and dual stick gamepad for his thumbs!!

My point being while you may have some argument about making controls more precise for HOTAS it really often comes down to calibration and practice as point out by Bunkerkind Anni above.
Coming up with a constructive suggestion about how to improve controls for HOTAS is much better than coming out and whining about getting your asses handed to you because someone is using a mouse and wanting someone else control method to be nerfed.
 

Aris_

Aris_
Madrax573 said:
I have a video on YT (link in sig) that describes my setup completely. With over lay and everything. I even put the mouse widget on for extra clarity (I don't use it normally as it doesn't help me fly whatsoever).

The group I fly with are all FA-off pilots and have various different control methods among them. HOTAS, Dual stick, KB+M, Steam controller, Heck one guy even uses a joystick and dual stick gamepad for his thumbs!!

My point being while you may have some argument about making controls more precise for HOTAS it really often comes down to calibration and practice as point out by Bunkerkind Anni above.
Coming up with a constructive suggestion about how to improve controls for HOTAS is much better than coming out and whining about getting your asses handed to you because someone is using a mouse and wanting someone else control method to be nerfed.
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Attacking me personally shows that you are a troll

if you had any constructive suggestion you would have shown already open your pc hook your hotas and record

and final not all of us are writing English as a native language so we cannot be absolutely clear but given a min of intelligence and experience people get the idea of the issue
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
Aris_ said:
Attacking me personally shows that you are a troll

if you had any constructive suggestion you would have shown already open your pc hook your hotas and record

and final not all of us are writing English as a native language so we cannot be absolutely clear but given a min of intelligence and experience people get the idea of the issue
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I'm sorry but I didn't attack you personally. If you thought I did then I didn't mean it in that way.

The part about constructive criticism was purely around all the "nerf KB+M so that HOTAS has an advantage" comments. Of which you had a few. Which is completely the wrong way of going about presenting an argument.

I can understand that as a non native English speaker this is hard to do. Again no offence intended if this came across otherwise.

While I can't personally do any vids of HOTAS FA-off control as I don't have one I'd point you to Isinona's vids https://www.youtube.com/user/Isinona/videos?disable_polymer=1 who was/is a very good HOTAS FA-off pilot and also to a friend of mine who has done some FA-off training videos who is also an excellent FA-off HOTAS pilot. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIQVVKXGd78AiYjhGUNZL9dFm23hYgc8R
 

furrycat

furrycat
I have close to 1000 lines of code between FreePIE and TARGET to deal with the digital to analogue "pulsing" of thrusters described by Morbad, combining my separate axis pedals into a single axis for the game and tweaking the sensitivity curves. Plus a custom TrackIR profile.

So I certainly agree with Aris_ about the lack of in-game configuration options.
 

Aris_

Aris_
furrycat said:
I have close to 1000 lines of code between FreePIE and TARGET to deal with the digital to analogue "pulsing" of thrusters described by Morbad, combining my separate axis pedals into a single axis for the game and tweaking the sensitivity curves. Plus a custom TrackIR profile.

So I certainly agree with Aris_ about the lack of in-game configuration options.
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I really will love to see your modes :)

In FreePIE this caught my eye "Added support for Tobii EyeX" how long will take to map x-y axis on any game ? :D


General I guess is too early as a community to open this kind of talks about input devises and how either accelerate your abilities or hampering them and how a game should approach them if wants to have any measure of competitiveness

Any way an average k/m player needs about 500 hours to have a good feel in ED pvp the same proficiency level after you tick and use all available tools (curves,vjoy,scripts,analog controllers,rudders...etc) in hotas is in excess of 1000h with the limitation of full faoff fixed wpn pvp which only i have seen demonstrated effectively with k/m in top competitive level

I could analyze when and why the differences become so pronounced but the lvl of community does not help or care - with exceptions ;)
 

Kyokushin

Kyokushin
Madrax573 said:
Relative mouse doesn't counteract anything. All it does is re-centre your input to emulate joystick return to centre. It's really very simple.
And no HOTAS shouldn't have an advantage.
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Its not how about it works. Its how a difference in precision is. Relative mouse is giving new level of precision to FA OFF aiming.

Someone also wrote a roll is not needed. [wacko] Pitch is over 2 times faster than yaw. Its always faster to roll+pitch than yaw. Not matter on what, kb+mouse or joy.
 
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Bunkerkind Anni

Bunkerkind Anni
Kyokushin said:
Someone also wrote a roll is not needed. [wacko] Pitch is over 2 times faster than yaw. Its always faster to roll+pitch than yaw. Not matter on what, kb+mouse or joy.
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when it comes to "precision", speed seems to be a secondary factor. Isn't that exactly what you are complaining about, that mouse user have a much better FINE control?
they can do much faster corrections, because they do not even try to roll.

The first thing a mouse user does, is disabling auto-roll and set mouse to pitch and yaw. roll is on digital on keyboard, and the rule for FA-Off is "do not roll needlessly".
Maybe you need to adopt your control scheme on joystick to the same principle, and put roll on your pedals or twist instead?

i can't test it myself, as i have only a very old saitek cyborg (first USB generation) that requires a relative huge deadzone that is the oppositte of precision...
 

Aris_

Aris_
Bunkerkind Anni said:
when it comes to "precision", speed seems to be a secondary factor. Isn't that exactly what you are complaining about, that mouse user have a much better FINE control?
they can do much faster corrections, because they do not even try to roll.

The first thing a mouse user does, is disabling auto-roll and set mouse to pitch and yaw. roll is on digital on keyboard, and the rule for FA-Off is "do not roll needlessly".
Maybe you need to adopt your control scheme on joystick to the same principle, and put roll on your pedals or twist instead?

i can't test it myself, as i have only a very old saitek cyborg (first USB generation) that requires a relative huge deadzone that is the oppositte of precision...
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please don't make fool of yourself , I posted video especially cmdr chris lane see the speeds and the precision take your hotas and try to duplicate this is a high technical subject

coming here without an extensive hotas experience providing solutions is a joke or a troll if you don't understand then just read and watch
 

Madrax573

Madrax573
Kyokushin said:
Its not how about it works. Its how a difference in precision is. Relative mouse is giving new level of precision to FA OFF aiming.

Someone also wrote a roll is not needed. [wacko] Pitch is over 2 times faster than yaw. Its always faster to roll+pitch than yaw. Not matter on what, kb+mouse or joy.
Click to expand...

So Relative mouse is a mechanism in which to try and emulate joystick control. Yes? That is what is is exclusively designed to do. Emulate the return to centre effect of joysticks. You can argue this till you are blue in the face but that is exactly what it is for. I took me ages to find a sweet spot for myself based on different mouse sensitivities and relative rates to get something that 'works' for me.

I can easily see that the HOTAS sensitivity in ED should be more configurable and have heard so many people talking about joystick curves etc that have often wondered why it isn't. But again campaigning for a control method that works to be nerfed is not the way to get an argument across it just make people seem overly whiney.

As for the roll-pitch v yaw argument....well to be perfectly frank if the roll-pitch was a much better manoeuvre then HOTAS would be the king of control and KB+M wouldn't be so hated upon right now.
Not every ship as a 2x ratio of pitch to yaw. Then you take into account the roll aspect as well. having to think about 1 vector is easier and more intuitive than thinking about 2 even if that vector doesn't quite have the magnitude of the other 2.

.....

Ultimately though I would like to the HOTAS controls be able to be refined/customised without the need to resort to 3rd party app to do so. That way we can get away from all the arguments about my control method is better than yours and back to I can fly better than you :D
 
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