Remove Chaff from NPCs

[Slange Lands]

The issue is how worthless the ships are vs the tediousness of doing combat with them.

What kind of combat do you find interesting? Is your satisfaction derived from taking down targets asap or is it the use of different weaponry or maneuvering?

If I were required to use a large ship and only gimballed weapons in this game for non AXI PvE, I honestly would start playing Star Wars Squadrons or play my millionth Spider Solitaire game.

 

[Chase Quinnell]

A-rated sensors help with gimbal tracking and target locking when the target runs cold, but they do nothing against chaff.

Oh wow, really? Guess I will have to stop using D sensors on my combat ships.

 

[lemon407]

Oh wow, really? Guess I will have to stop using D sensors on my combat ships.

I just looked this up, no its not true, it was something they experimented with, with turreted weapons and gimbled weapons in beta but it was scrapped.

Sensors are used for tracking for gimbled and turreted weapons, but the grade has no effect on the effectiveness of gimbled and turreted weapons.

 

[Sylow]

This is one of the few games I've played where so much of the player base equates patience with skill.

This is quite true. I mean, somebody here just claims that he's skilled because he has so many things bought and engineered in the game. Which really is not a feat of any skill, but merely a show of how much time he invested into the grind.

In contrast, chaff can be handled in several ways:
1. Wait till it wears off. It's indeed a bit of patience game, but if you use he time to recharge your capacitor and have weapons equiped to make use of these breaks, it actually includes a tiny bit of skill.
2. Deselect the target. (Best choice: use the "next target in route" button. It reliably deselects the target, without accidentally sometimes selecting another target, like using the "select target ahead" sometimes can do. ) Use your weapons like fixed. Of course, this basically only is the limited "hold crosshair on a certain spot" skill. I was told that it's very easy to do with keyboard and mouse and i personally can confirm that it can also be done with a joystick. (Of course, i am very old-school. When i started out with flight sims, nobody ever had the idea that they could be controlled with anything else than a joystick. )
3. Have a weapon group with fixed weapons. Most of my ships have a pair of railguns,anyway. (Feedback cascade really helps. ) When i feel too lazy to deselect a chaffing target (e.g. because i already have a subtarget selected and don't want to toggle to it again after the chaff wore off), i simply switch to the rail and can continue hitting it.
4. Control your distance and angle on the target. If you stick close enough to it and especially if you manage to stay on the right position to get the maximum profile, all the chaff does nothing for it.

Depending on which ship you fly, the last one is either very simple to do or quite a test of skill. If on the other hand only the first one is what you ever choose to do, it's your very own call that you decide to rather wait than work on it.

 

[Sylow]

A-rated sensors help with gimbal tracking and target locking when the target runs cold, but they do nothing against chaff.

They do? Just like others mentioned, i also believe to remember that while it was in a beta and while it (just like many other small changes) was received favourably by those who actually tested, it was cried away by some people who did not test it but were afraid that they'd have to adjust their ships to the changes.

Edit: Thanks to Lemon407 to confirm. And me slow, i should have refreshed the thread before writing this reply.

 

[Fake Newts]

1.
2.
3.
4.

And please don't forget 5. to use missiles to destroy the chaff launcher, which is a solution that seems to not be being picked up much itt despite it being what the OP seems to want - a) you don't need good aim; missiles aim themselves, b) it's proactive; you get to do some subtargeting and positioning instead of waiting for the chaff to cook off, c) you don't have to deselect; which OP says they don't want to do. It doesn't work through shields and sometimes it can be tricky if the target has point defence, but then you can fire the missiles from an angle the PD can't reach.

It really just sounds like the OP is stubbornly using a limiting loadout and refusing to adapt to one of PvElite's precious few challenges.

 

[Achtung-Goomba]

And please don't forget 5. to use missiles to destroy the chaff launcher, which is a solution that seems to not be being picked up much itt despite it being what the OP seems to want - a) you don't need good aim; missiles aim themselves, b) it's proactive; you get to do some subtargeting and positioning instead of waiting for the chaff to cook off, c) you don't have to deselect; which OP says they don't want to do. It doesn't work through shields and sometimes it can be tricky if the target has point defence, but then you can fire the missiles from an angle the PD can't reach.

It really just sounds like the OP is stubbornly using a limiting loadout and refusing to adapt to one of PvElite's precious few challenges.

Oh my days this, I just finally bought myself an Anaconda so I had enough hardpoints for all the dakka and all the missiles, and while the salvoes of four seekers at a time looked almost underwhelming against NPC hull (I was in a combat zone like so fairly tanky, even with a corrosive buff) when I checked their module damage and cycled through the externals they were absolutely ruined.

 

[Factabulous]

It really just sounds like the OP is stubbornly using a limiting loadout and refusing to adapt to one of PvElite's precious few challenges.

It's a common theme around here - if the game gets in the way then it is down to the game to get out of the way of the player. Sadly sometimes fdev listens.

 

[Fake Newts]

Oh my days this, I just finally bought myself an Anaconda so I had enough hardpoints for all the dakka and all the missiles, and while the salvoes of four seekers at a time looked almost underwhelming against NPC hull (I was in a combat zone like so fairly tanky, even with a corrosive buff) when I checked their module damage and cycled through the externals they were absolutely ruined.

Yeah if you think about missiles as a utility in the same way you'd use feedback rails, topically, then they make a lot more sense. They're terrible as primary damage.

I tend to fly fixed weapon medium ships usually FDLs or Chieftains, sitting up using a HOTAS but I do also have a soft spot for opening a beer, sitting on the sofa and playing with a gamepad of an evening when I'm not feeling particularly energetic. It's nice that Elite caters to both 'modes'. This is my go-to setup for low-effort stomping CZs https://s.orbis.zone/cl0k

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I just looked this up, no its not true, it was something they experimented with, with turreted weapons and gimbled weapons in beta but it was scrapped.

Sensors are used for tracking for gimbled and turreted weapons, but the grade has no effect on the effectiveness of gimbled and turreted weapons.

My own testing says otherwise.

 

[Schmack]

This is quite true. I mean, somebody here just claims that he's skilled because he has so many things bought and engineered in the game. Which really is not a feat of any skill, but merely a show of how much time he invested into the grind.

I never mentioned being skilled. Not once. Please don't put words in my mouth. Being informed isn't the same as being skilled.

In contrast, chaff can be handled in several ways:
1. Wait till it wears off. It's indeed a bit of patience game, but if you use he time to recharge your capacitor and have weapons equiped to make use of these breaks, it actually includes a tiny bit of skill.
2. Deselect the target. (Best choice: use the "next target in route" button. It reliably deselects the target, without accidentally sometimes selecting another target, like using the "select target ahead" sometimes can do. ) Use your weapons like fixed. Of course, this basically only is the limited "hold crosshair on a certain spot" skill. I was told that it's very easy to do with keyboard and mouse and i personally can confirm that it can also be done with a joystick. (Of course, i am very old-school. When i started out with flight sims, nobody ever had the idea that they could be controlled with anything else than a joystick. )
3. Have a weapon group with fixed weapons. Most of my ships have a pair of railguns,anyway. (Feedback cascade really helps. ) When i feel too lazy to deselect a chaffing target (e.g. because i already have a subtarget selected and don't want to toggle to it again after the chaff wore off), i simply switch to the rail and can continue hitting it.
4. Control your distance and angle on the target. If you stick close enough to it and especially if you manage to stay on the right position to get the maximum profile, all the chaff does nothing for it.

Depending on which ship you fly, the last one is either very simple to do or quite a test of skill. If on the other hand only the first one is what you ever choose to do, it's your very own call that you decide to rather wait than work on it.

Thanks for going through the trouble of explaining all of that but all of these things I am well aware of, thus my comments about time in game. I already stated I can deselect the target and go fixed, or I can used fixed weapons so I know the options. I wouldn't suggest something without knowing the options, hopefully.

What kind of combat do you find interesting? Is your satisfaction derived from taking down targets asap or is it the use of different weaponry or maneuvering?

If I were required to use a large ship and only gimballed weapons in this game for non AXI PvE, I honestly would start playing Star Wars Squadrons or play my millionth Spider Solitaire game.

I find meaningful combat interesting. This would be combat where the outcome matters to both of the combatants, and the desired outcome is to first not die, and 2nd to kill the other. I don't find it interesting to fly around in circles for 30m taking pot shots at each other to see who can hit the passing target with a better engineered volley for the number of times required to either force retreat or destruction. I see the attraction of jousting in PvP, but not in PvE. Some is ok, dragging it out for the sake of dragging it out is tedious, but if that's what FDev wants then they'll not change it.
I am well aware of what chaff does and what's required to fight against it. I said so in the opening post. How many times do I have to keep pointing that out?


What I am saying in this thread:

1. Small NPCs are mostly a time sink if they spam chaff (non-winged ships)
2. It's not fun to engage in time sink activities, countdowns, forced waiting periods... etc. I understand some for gameplay reasons I just think the chaff is overdone by too many NPCs these days.
3. The game seems to push players toward fixed weapons but offers other options.
4. No realistic version of a fighting space ship would rely on ability to point fixed weapons at high speed, approaching targets. Even gunships have turrets and gimballed weapons.

What I am not saying:

1. I don't understand how to play the game
2. I want NPCs to be easier to kill
3. I am having difficulty killing NPCs
4. I need more options.

Thanks for your inputs. I still want the small, ineffective NPCs to be either buffed or their chaff to be removed. Either make them matter or make them quick to dispose of.

 

[Schmack]

I'm sorry but it's hard to take you seriously when you're using your extensive playtime as a defence/boast while also saying that you find yourself unable to use fixed weapons and won't use or acknowledge any of the other tools that'd enable you to bypass chaff. You're not the only person with extensive playtime, and it doesn't help your case.

You're right about some stuff though - Elite's playerbase has a tendency to conflate patience with skill. You're also right that balance is way off and ships can be inordinately tanky for their offensive capability, particularly the 2xM 2xS small ships can barely scratch each other in CZs, which is a bit silly. None of that has anything to do with chaff as a mechanic though, just... get better at dealing with it, damn. If you can't use fixed weapons fit a missile rack and blow the launchers up.

I never said I have difficulty using fixed weapons. I said I find it tedious and not enjoyable and although the game seems designed for HOTAS the fixed weapon concept doesn't seem to align well with the HOTAS use vs kb/m.

I didn't say ships can be tanky. I have no idea what you're responding to actually. Balance is fine. If the argument against my suggestion is that NPCs should have the same abilities as players, then that's already not ever going to happen. NPCs are a narrative of sorts. They aren't entities that "deserve" anything. The game isn't harder because of chaff on small NPCs. It's more tedious because of it. Whether or not it bothers you is beside the point and regarding your snide comments about using fixed weapons, maybe don't draw conclusions without reading the actual post.

 

[Sylow]

What I am saying in this thread:

1. Small NPCs are mostly a time sink if they spam chaff (non-winged ships)
2. It's not fun to engage in time sink activities, countdowns, forced waiting periods... etc. I understand some for gameplay reasons I just think the chaff is overdone by too many NPCs these days.
3. The game seems to push players toward fixed weapons but offers other options.
4. No realistic version of a fighting space ship would rely on ability to point fixed weapons at high speed, approaching targets. Even gunships have turrets and gimballed weapons.

1. If they feel too much of a time sink for you, there are other targets. (Sorry for stating the obvious again, but that's how it is. It's your own call if you attack them, generally. )

2. Chaff is a logical equipment choice. And actually a much more interesting one than "yet more shield boosters". It makes sense that NPCs also use it. And if it really troubles you so much: scan the ship, check if it has chaff, if yes, find another target. (I'd rather have several other utilities improved to be as valuable as chaff. Quite often NPCs have ECM and PDs on their ships. Which generally are a worse choice than leaving the utility slot open, which is why very few players ever have one of these items. As a sidenote, i also would not object to engineered SBs being strongly nerfed. They are above and beyond what they should be, not chaff. )

3. I don't feel pushed towards fixed weapons. My most used combat ships have mostly gimbaled weapons, only the railguns, for obvious reasons, are fixed. Other players prefer fixed weapons, but the game gives me the freedom to pick what i like, so i do that. (If you want to talk about the game pushing you in some direction, we can start talking about engineers and how dominating some blueprints and special effects are. ) Also, options are good. The more, the better. And in the given case, both fixed and gimbaled weapons can be useful, so they both are actually an acceptable choice, not just the illusion of one. (Like so many engineering "options" are. )

4. True. Also, no realistic version of a fighting spaceship game would have engagement ranges of only 3 km. Maneuvering would also matter very little in most cases. (Only in extreme situations like when fighting very close to the surface of a moon or planet it would make any difference. ) And definitely no human would be involved in controllling the weapons below the level of setting targeting priorities to the ships automatic targeting systems. That would be a completely different game, though, and i hope that this one remains our very unrealistic "human pilot in a 1970s combat spaceship" game.

 

[Fake Newts]

I never said I have difficulty using fixed weapons. I said I find it tedious and not enjoyable and although the game seems designed for HOTAS the fixed weapon concept doesn't seem to align well with the HOTAS use vs kb/m.

I didn't say ships can be tanky. I have no idea what you're responding to actually. Balance is fine. If the argument against my suggestion is that NPCs should have the same abilities as players, then that's already not ever going to happen. NPCs are a narrative of sorts. They aren't entities that "deserve" anything. The game isn't harder because of chaff on small NPCs. It's more tedious because of it. Whether or not it bothers you is beside the point and regarding your snide comments about using fixed weapons, maybe don't draw conclusions without reading the actual post.

You... basically are saying you have difficulty using fixed weapons though. FWIW I use fixed weapons with a HOTAS all the time (as do many hundreds of people). Try switching your X axis from roll to yaw, it helps a lot with granular aim as it minimises roll 'noise' while tracking targets and is a wider, more granular axis than the twist. There's a reason most zero-g games have it this way around, Elite is kind of an anomaly with its defaults.

I thought you were implying that the 'tedium' was based on NPC loadouts, not just you fundamentally not enjoying the process of pointing and shooting weapons, which really sounds like a 'you problem'... you surely have to acknowledge that everything you're saying here about it "just being tedious" and "forcing you to use fixed" is 100% your opinion and one that is apparently not shared by the majority of people.

I'll agree to stop jumping to conclusions from your posts if you agree to stop requesting combat be rendered less complicated because you aren't good at it. Get better at it or stop doing it.

 

[lemon407]

My own testing says otherwise.

Wiki says otherwise

Sensors

Standard suite providing basic detection, identification and targeting capabilities. — In-Game Description Sensors passively scan the surrounding area for other ships and objects of interest and displays the data on the ship's Scanner. Upgrading a ship's Sensors will increase their optimal range...

elite-dangerous.fandom.com

 

[Schmack]

You... basically are saying you have difficulty using fixed weapons though. FWIW I use fixed weapons with a HOTAS all the time (as do many hundreds of people). Try switching your X axis from roll to yaw, it helps a lot with granular aim as it minimises roll 'noise' while tracking targets and is a wider, more granular axis than the twist. There's a reason most zero-g games have it this way around, Elite is kind of an anomaly with its defaults.

I thought you were implying that the 'tedium' was based on NPC loadouts, not just you fundamentally not enjoying the process of pointing and shooting weapons, which really sounds like a 'you problem'... you surely have to acknowledge that everything you're saying here about it "just being tedious" and "forcing you to use fixed" is 100% your opinion and one that is apparently not shared by the majority of people.

I'll agree to stop jumping to conclusions from your posts if you agree to stop requesting combat be rendered less complicated because you aren't good at it. Get better at it or stop doing it.

I just told you what I was saying. If you need to strawman knock yourself out. Many suggestions in this suggestion forum are "you" problems.

Again, what I am not saying "I need help".

1. If they feel too much of a time sink for you, there are other targets. (Sorry for stating the obvious again, but that's how it is. It's your own call if you attack them, generally. )

2. Chaff is a logical equipment choice. And actually a much more interesting one than "yet more shield boosters". It makes sense that NPCs also use it. And if it really troubles you so much: scan the ship, check if it has chaff, if yes, find another target. (I'd rather have several other utilities improved to be as valuable as chaff. Quite often NPCs have ECM and PDs on their ships. Which generally are a worse choice than leaving the utility slot open, which is why very few players ever have one of these items. As a sidenote, i also would not object to engineered SBs being strongly nerfed. They are above and beyond what they should be, not chaff. )

3. I don't feel pushed towards fixed weapons. My most used combat ships have mostly gimbaled weapons, only the railguns, for obvious reasons, are fixed. Other players prefer fixed weapons, but the game gives me the freedom to pick what i like, so i do that. (If you want to talk about the game pushing you in some direction, we can start talking about engineers and how dominating some blueprints and special effects are. ) Also, options are good. The more, the better. And in the given case, both fixed and gimbaled weapons can be useful, so they both are actually an acceptable choice, not just the illusion of one. (Like so many engineering "options" are. )

4. True. Also, no realistic version of a fighting spaceship game would have engagement ranges of only 3 km. Maneuvering would also matter very little in most cases. (Only in extreme situations like when fighting very close to the surface of a moon or planet it would make any difference. ) And definitely no human would be involved in controllling the weapons below the level of setting targeting priorities to the ships automatic targeting systems. That would be a completely different game, though, and i hope that this one remains our very unrealistic "human pilot in a 1970s combat spaceship" game.

I've been flying a fixed beam Vulture for weeks. It's not the issue that I cannot use fixed beams.

If it troubles me so much I would create a suggestion to change it. That's what I did. If it gets changed, that's great. if not, that's ok too.

Calling this a 1970's spaceship combat game is like calling the OLED a klystron.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Well there are certain mainly Imperial ships with such hardpoint placement that using fixed only weapons is useless. My suggestion is that one should be able to set convergence point, and when weapons loose track they default to that. In many battles I have had enemy at center of screen but due to chaff fire goes all over.

 

[Just Paul]

 

[Chase Quinnell]

I find it frustrating too, but I just don't think removing chaff from NPCs is the right move. As long as they're playing by the rules players have to, then it's fine. Makes sense that fighters would use it to their advantage.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

How about remove chaff, but to balance it out, NPCs get g5 heavy duty armour and HRPs along with g5 reinforced shields? I've yet to see a small NPC ship that last more than 30 seconds against one of my gimballed builds anyway, so they need something going for them.